In that case, I'd say that Reality Ensues is related to Meta Twist. It's not just any deconstruction or subversion, but a specific pattern of them that are surprising twists given the story's history. Which isn't to say it necessarily has its own place, but a distinction has been made before for such a thing and a comparison could help out this discussion.
Edited by Jokubas on Jul 7th 2020 at 6:50:15 AM
Here's one based on an aversion: [1]
[2] Isaac (the red-haired kid) shoots an air blast, but since he's dangling from a rope, it mostly pushes him instead of who he was aiming at, averting Law of Inverse Recoil.
Here's one not based on a specific trope: [3] Spender (sunglasses guy) appears dramatically, applauding Isabel and congratulating her, but she can't understand him over the sound of his clapping. Followed up by a Reality Ensues subversion of... Casual High Drop? Does the front flip disqualify it as casual? If it doesn't fit that trope, that's another example not based on a specific trope. Anyway I bring that up to illustrate the point that Reality Ensues can apply to concepts/conventions we don't actually have trope pages on.
Here's another. Spender briefs the others (behind him) while facing the window, but they can't hear him since he's talking while facing away from them. Deconstruction of what I suppose fits Contemplative Boss, but I think the actual concept behind it is somewhat broader than that trope, or overlapping with it. Talking dramatically while facing away from someone is certainly not limited to Contemplative Boss, and Contemplative Boss does not necessarily involve talking.
Something these all have in common: there's what you'd expect to happen (the trope/convention played straight), and what actually happens. The former goes unsaid in most(?) Reality Ensues writeups. I wonder, might it help if the "what you'd expect" part were required to be stated explicitly for the example to have enough context? (Compare What An Idiot and how its examples are written)
Another thought: just because something is a convention doesn't mean it's considered tropeworthy, so could Reality Ensues apply to non-tropes?
Angry babby
I'm wary to broaden the definition to "anything surprisingly realistic." While reality isn't subjective, just how realistic something is can be subjective, and whether the story intended to be particularly realistic can be subjective as well.
For example: let's say there's a story about Abusive Parents. It's realistic for the child to be afraid of their parent as a result, but most stories that involve this trope have that as a default reaction. So it doesn't feel worth noting.
However, let's say the child is shown to love their parent without bringing up the abusive behavior. Some may say that's realistic, and that it's intended to show how abuse victims can love their abusers. However, it may just as well be a retcon unless there's in-universe acknowledgment of this behavior. This is the sort of situation that could spark a lot of fan arguments about whether this is brilliant or lazy, and it's not always easy to tell what the intention was.
I saw a Reality Ensues entry about a Black Comedy Rape joke because the victim went back and forth between hating and loving their abuser, and had strange sexual tastes afterwards. Now, that is an accurate statement, and it is something not often explored in media...except the reason the victim was inconsistent about their victim is because it's a web show with very loose continuity, all of this was Played for Laughs, and there were no serious connections made between the rape joke and subsequent weird jokes about sex. So yes, it can be interpreted as a realistic response to trauma, but it's not played that way in the work. And I think without a specific acknowledgment that there's some established story convention to subvert, we may get more entries that just read too much into works to make them sound more realistic.
Edited by mightymewtron on Jul 7th 2020 at 10:54:24 AM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It wouldn't just be "anything surprisingly realistic" but a "surprisingly realistic moment." As in, a specific moment that that happens, not anything someone could point to as being semi-realistic. It's also context dependent.
Gonna repost something I said that got lost in the crash:
The page image is the classic example—you've got a silly Rule of Cool scene where a hero is dodging bullets, and then bam reality, he's dead because he can't actually dodge bullets.
It can be funny (like the page image), dramatic, or whatever. And yes, "reality" in any work of fiction is subject to the whims of the author, but you can still tell when they're doing this, pulling the rug out for effect.
Without that pulling the rug out, it's just "something happens." And those moments can fit on many other tropes (I've seen Reality Ensues misused for Mundane Solution, Silly Rabbit, Idealism Is for Kids!, and every form of deconstruction you can think of), but this is supposed to be that realistic subversion of expectations. It doesn't have to be a realistic subversion of a specific trope, that's what the definition expansion is for, but it can't just be "I found this moment realistic."
I think it would be helpful if someone involved in the cleanup thread showed some examples that were cut by the thread, to demonstrate what a bad example looks like. The definition expansion was supposed to match up with what the cleanup thread has been doing, after all.
Angry babby
Yeah, the context is what really seals the deal for me. Without a requirement that the moment be something serious and intentional, it might just turn into a gushing magnet for people who think their favorite media is actually super deep you guys.
Edited by mightymewtron on Jul 7th 2020 at 2:37:36 PM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
One flag that the cleanup thread noted was that anything more than a screen long/had more than 3-ish examples was almost always more like "consequences exist" or other tropes rather than subversion of tropes or surprise realism.
that's exactly how long entries read to me.
Edited by Tabs on Jul 7th 2020 at 11:15:38 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
True. People were always shocked whenever someone got in trouble for their actions.
OK, I can bring in a few.
Examples in OP:
"Spider-Man's fight against Sandman and Rhino, where Spidey uses Rhino's weight against him. rather than fighting him directly."
"Beshte gets sunburns all over his body and is easily exhausted while he is lost in the Outlands. Justified due to the fact that hippos need water to survive to avoid sunburn and overheating."
"It's heavily implied that being the leader of the Lion Guard has taken a toll on Kion's social and private life."
"Milo Murphy's Law is about a boy named Milo Murphy whose entire life is centered around Murphy's Law. In another cartoon, being The Jinx would cause people to be afraid of them, resulting in an unsocial lifestyle. That does not apply here. While everyone does watch their step around Milo, they do not hate him for it. Being The Jinx does, however, give everyone Paranoia Fuel, given that Murphy's Law can happen at any time, so chances are you might need insurance, a phone in case of emergencies, among other things. Milo himself (as well as his friends Melissa and Zack) just learned to adapt to his condition, being prepared for anything. He has lived with Murphy's Law his entire life after all. That being said, that does not mean that they don't panic all the time. Examples include Milo panicking over his monthly doctor's note, and Melissa panicking over riding a rollercoaster with Milo."
" Hiro is initially not allowed to use Tadashi's former lab, as it can only be accessed by upperclassmen who earned the privilege. Subverted in the second half of the pilot when Professor Granville decides Hiro using the lab would benefit him. On a related note regarding Granville, she is tough, but fair when interacting with the students. She might be, as Wasabi describes "a hard case", but Granville being a complete sadist and picking on Hiro would be unrealistic. She is actually a decent person."
IMO, the first page of the thread is a good read about what the problem with the use of Reality Ensues is.
AnotherDuck explains why OP's examples are misuse. I think
Crossover-Enthusiast points out the existence of an entire subpage of Reality Ensues, especially the number of examples. Misuse from a single recap page
- Steven tries to swim to Beach City, only for the ocean's current to send him back to the island.
- A watermelon bird tries to fly, only to immediately fall because it's much too heavy for its wings to support it.
- Steven in the Watermelon form tries to verbally tell Bismuth and Greg that the Crystal Gems on Homeworld need help. But they don't understand his Watermelon gibberish and shrug their shoulders. They also can't understand his drawings. So he writes out a message instead โ "HELP! WE NEED BACKUP!" โ before his temporary body dries out.
- After the long day they had, Connie falls asleep while holding onto Steven.
Discussion on why this deleted example is not an example:
- After being put on probation, Jessie decides that she needs some time to herself and leaves her two friends. James lets her go. As Ash tells Misty, it'd be unwise for James to try and run after her, beg her to stay, and pledge his undying love to her. Jessie needs time to recover from her trauma.
Long post about a single recap page with eight bullets, none of which were deemed legitimate:
- After being locked up for hours with only energy bars to eat, Steven and Connie wolf down all the food that they packed for the trip. On a similar note, when Steven is crying due to Blue's aura, Connie's worried that he'll get dehydrated.
- Keeping quiet about problems would only lead to said problems accumulating until they reach the breaking point. Yellow and Blue had noticed eons ago, but out of fear and desire to please White, they didn't act on it until Pink openly rebelled as Rose Quartz and died to give birth to Steven. By the time the conflict with the Diamonds is resolved, Pink is gone forever, and her family will never be able to personally apologize to her for eons of emotional and mental abuse.
- Blue is the nobility and the aristocrat, while Yellow is the military leader. Thus while Blue is able to put up a serious fight, Yellow is clearly the better fighter of the two and Steven has to save Blue in the end.
- Connie suggests the Diamonds do what she did with her parents and just finally confront White on how she makes them feel. Unfortunately, unlike Connie's parents who genuinely love her enough to change their rules for her sake, White is a genuinely Abusive Parent with a very high opinion of herself, and reacts violently when confronted on it.
- The Diamond mecha is intended to be controlled by all four Diamonds at once. White has to control it via herself and the mind controlled Blue and Yellow while superseding control of the leg ship from Steven. As such, its movements are shown to be much more clunky and sluggish than when the parts are controlled independently, with its attacks being wide swipes rather than the more fluid movements shown elsewhere. After Sunstone throws off her attempt to stomp on them, it notably takes her a while to regain control, with Sunstone making it a good distance up one of the legs with the other Crystal Gems before she swats them off.
- Connie's attempts to carry a weakened Steven to Pink Steven are slowed by the fact that Steven is quite a hefty kid. Connie has a hard time carrying him due to being lighter in comparison.
- White Diamond's entire worldview is built on her perceived perfection, including how she sees herself and everyone else. As a result, when that fact is disproved, she has a complete existential crisis.
- When a blushing White Diamond reaches out to them in desperation, Blue and Yellow Diamondโ who were just previously mind controlled by herโ understandably flinch and back away from her in fear, as well as expressing disgust of her being "Off-Colored".
Starting here, there are lists for shows I'm not familiar with, so I can only nod along with the reasoning. The gist is that most are said to be misuse because they are 1.) other tropes 2.) realistic thing happens with no narrative convention setup 3.) ????/wall of text.
Edited by Tabs on Jul 7th 2020 at 11:38:43 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Right. As long as the examples:
- Are treated as subversions/surprises/etc by the narrative
- Have context beyond "this is kinda realistic"
- Follow real-life logic rather than story logic (where this is where some of the subjectivity comes in, all you really need to do is consider the actual context and logic of the story and what might happen if these things were applied to real life)
- Are still moments and not just "man, this character sure did face consequences for their actions"
...Then I think we can make this work.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Ah. That last bullet is the source of so many deletions.
I believe that Reality Ensues doesn't require an actual on-site trope to defy. Just because it's not on TV Tropes doesn't mean it's not a story convention.
This is doable... I think.
Had an image suggestion, was told to take it here or to cleanup.
Suggestion for RealityEnsues.Webcomics, from Paranatural: panels 6+9
Applying the above bullets to the panels:
- treated as [subversion/surprise/etc] by the narrative
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
a subversion of cool talking with back turned sort of thing
- [has] context beyond "this is kinda realistic" ?
- [follows] real-life logic rather than story logic (where this is where some of the subjectivity comes in, all you really need to do is consider the actual context and logic of the story and what might happen if these things were applied to real life)
- [is still a moment] and not just "man, this character sure did face consequences for their actions"
But how does it look shrunk?
It looks fine. The second panel is under 350 px wide, and the first panel is just a little over that (368 when I cropped it). Unfortunately I have recently discovered that reducing image size in Preview loses image clarity, so unless I find a way around that, someone else will probably have to take care of editing them together and uploading.
(I can't leave it to the uploader to shrink because I have to edit the panels together first, and that would result in the second panel getting unnecessarily shrunk along with the first.)
Feel free to change, but I think it looks nicer horizontally.
Sorry to ask, but what's wrong with the current page image? I mean, it's a perfect example of Reality ensuing: wanna-be Batman attacks people with guns, expectation is that the writer is going all "fanboying Batgod" and the bee-man will dodge the bullets or the bad guys lack aim or the guy's suit can withstand whatever bullets get lucky, and next frame is the guy dropping dead with a hundred bullet holes in him because that's what happens when a guy gets hit with fire from a dozen machine guns.
Not to say that the proposed image doesn't works. Heck, it's bad enough when someone looks away and then someone talks right next to you — now imagine adding having Tinnitus to that. I guess I just wanna play Devil's Advocate.
Also... and I admit I may be wrong... part of the expectations that could be analyzed about "reality ensuing" is not just, well, the genre convention overall but also the internal logic presented so far in a story. Like for example, if a fanfic writer had been doing a cookie-cutter "Naruto" story so far, The Stations of the Canon followed perfectly, but he decides to then add a twist that when Ibiki Morino showcases the billion scars on his head as a result of being tortured as part of the price of being a ninja and scares at least one of the Rookie Nine into quitting being ninja outright because even the most realistic of them don't know if being tortured is a price they may want to pay for the sake of personal glory, I suppose that is Reality Ensuing (I mean, even the most gung-ho recruitment speeches in real life are all about "become the greatest badass you can be", not "you have a 75% chance of being blown up by an IED in your first week on the field" or "In your sixth week of training you will endure SERE drills and you will be asked to withstand psychological trauma in a controlled situation").
Deconstruction would be something like having the quitter follow an increasingly Bad Path with a Bad End because of their decision. One moment of "oh, man, this is not what I was thinking of when I signed up because of all those cool battle stories I heard from my dad!" — that's Reality Ensuing.
Edited by marcoasalazarm on Jul 29th 2020 at 3:04:43 AM
she/her
The suggestion is specifically for the webcomics subpage. The main page image isn't going anywhere.
I think the "story going against own internal logic for nasty consequences" thing is Cerebus Syndrome or Cerebus Retcon.
We're doing an in-depth cleanup of the Bojack Horseman work page, which is generally overwritten and shoehorn-heavy due to the efforts of one, shall we say, exceptionally enthusiastic troper.
We're currently focused on the RealityEnsues.Bojack Horseman page, and given that folks here are likely to be more in-tune with the current thinking on this trope than we are, additional perspectives on whether there's anything there worth salvaging would be welcome.
The length of the page and individual entries are red flags. At a glance, most of them ramble and don't explain where the trope/narrative logic is to subvert.
If anyone on the cleanup thread (or here) knows the show well and believes there are legitimate examples of Reality Ensues, easiest way to rewrite them is say 1. Here's the trope/story logic. 2. Someone trying to follow it learns the real life applies instead. 3. It occurs for a moment.
The Fish out of Water bullets look the closest to fitting, but I may be misunderstanding what going underwater means.
Edited by Tabs on Aug 17th 2020 at 11:11:03 AM
Hello, Minni128 from the planet Chrome.
I often went with that Reality Ensues meant it where the situation in fiction gets played for reality, not exactly a deconstruction or subversion of the usual tropes but teeters on it or the expected trope is meant to be completely absent (no aversion, it's just not referenced at all) and the whole situation is played about as realistically as a viewer might expect it to be. Basically, it's where the work (or the situation within a work) would run more so on real life logic than the Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
I might be wrong on this, though, but that's what I got, at least from the trope description.
Aversion is absence. Otherwise, your interpretation sounds reasonable but too, eh, flexible. With the above bullet list, we've tried to tighten the requirements.
^^ If my reading of the discussion here is correct, we want to limit examples to works that in general don't play things realistically except for special occasions which then stand out and should be listed. If a work is firmly based in reality and realistic outcomes are the rule, this trope does not apply.
Hello, Minni128 from browser planet Chrome.
I remembered that I had a brain fart with my first reply and, adding to my first reply,I meant to include where I also figured the trope was where "Viewers expect X but got Y" when a situation played out, except the situation, instead of going by trope you'd expect, you'd get this one where it plays out similar to how it would in real life.
An example of this I can think of would be: Alice fakes her death to start a new life somewhere:
- X: After faking her death, Alice moves away, gets a new job, and starts a new life (What Viewers expect).
- Y: After faking her death, Alice realizes she can't move away with no money because, after faking her death, her bank account was transferred over to Bob, and she can't get a job because her social security number was deactivated. (What Viewers get)
I don't know if that exactly works, either, but is the "Expect X but Get Y" formula what we're going for or is it something else?
Edited by Minni128 on Aug 28th 2020 at 6:08:35 AM
Crown Description:
What would be the best way to fix the page?
An ongoing conversation was lost due to the server crash. I was question whether there were any examples of Reality Ensues that don't depend on subverting/deconstructing specific tropes. The two example given were based on specific tropes (Toon Physics and Dodge the Bullet respectively). I asked if anyone could give a legitimate example of Reality Ensues not rooted in a specific trope and if not, why Realityensues needs to exist as a separate concept from a subvert/deconstructed example of the various individual tropes.