Needs Help: Catharsis Factor

I noticed there were non-video game examples in Catharsis Factor, Despite the decription saying it's about the things you do, not the things you see that are stress relieving. Pretty much all of the non-video game examples fall into Take That, Scrappy! or gushing about a Hate Sink or Asshole Victim being punished. Like this:

• Starlight Glimmer bluntly telling Pinkie Pie she was solely at fault for her sister Maud leaving Ponyville for Ghastly Gorge. What would otherwise be Innocently Insensitive is extremely satisfying to see considering how many times Pinkie had acted insufferably to others at times, especially to Cranky Doodle, Fluttershy, and Princess Luna in their respective episodes without actual consequence.

And a recent edition:

• Pretty much any scene where Chris is attacked and injured or called out for his behavior is this to anyone who hates him.

I actually posted this a while back on ATT and one of the admins said this belongs in the Trope Repair Shop, so here it is.

Should Catharsis Factor be limited to video games only?

Sorry to keep you waiting, ~Plasma Power. Opening for discussion.

I think that Catharsis Factor regarding karma should be noted when possibly invoked by the narrative, and should not apply to characters who aren't intended to be despised, or at least aren't supposed to be seen as worthy of their fate.

In other words, non-videogame examples should be a counterpoint to Designated Monkey, meaning that Catharsis Factor should only apply if the author intended that the character do something to make them worthy of such punishment.

I'll use Kieran Wilcox, from Scream: TV Series as an example. By the end of the second season, the narrative portrays him as a detestable figure who hides behind a mask of civility. Based on the reaction of the protagonist, Emma, to his death ("he got off easy"), I would say that the narrative expects the viewer to rejoice in Kieran's misfortune, or at least get some semblance of satisfaction from his death (I fucking cheered when he died).

In contrast, I don't think it applies to Hans Gruber, from Die Hard unless you consider Catharsis Factor to account for rooting for the underdog, in this case John McClane. This is because while the narrative does point out that Hans is a greedy psychopath who will shed blood without a second thought for his personal gain, the narrative emphasizes his intellect, charisma, and levelheadedness, as well as his audacity.

I'd be open to a separate YMMV item specifically for positive audience reactions to narrative intended deserved karma. Maybe call it "Karmic Schadenfreude"?

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 16th 2020 at 2:16:17 PM

Thank you for opening this up!

The thing is, all the non video game entries (And even some video game entries) miss the point of what Catharsis Factor is.

According to the Laconic, it says that “Video game violence is stress relieving”. It implies that it’s more about the things you do that relieve stress and not so much what you see.

Like, we all know how much people want to strangle Scrappy Doo, but you can’t really do that. Seeing deserved karma happen to him isn’t the viewers doing it, it’s the story and characters that are doing it.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 16th 2020 at 11:59:17 AM

I think this reaction may need to be renamed so that it is clearly about Video Game Violence as stress release.

Maybe "Gaming Rampage Release" (GRR)?

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 16th 2020 at 11:18:21 AM

I'm down with that.

As stated before, I'd also be open to a separate YMMV item specifically for positive audience reactions to narrative intended deserved karma. Maybe call it "Karmic Schadenfreude"?

Maybe "Gaming Rampage Release/Gaming Resolution Release" (GRR) would be a clearer title in that regard than Catharsis Factor?

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 16th 2020 at 2:58:01 PM

I think Moment of Awesome covers those moments. Many moments under Catharsis Factor are already under there. Catharsis Factor is just another way to gush. However:

If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device

• Catharsis Factor: One of the biggest draws of the show is watching the Emperor finally start sorting out the festering grimdark shitfest that is the canonical Imperium of Man.

• Catharsis Factor: While most of Kenshiro's enemies don't stand a chance against him, it is always satisfying to see him tear through the worst of humanity.

Those have the same stress-relieving potential as interactive ways.

My impression is, to keep Catharsis Factor separate from Moment of Awesome. Catharsis should be things that happen regularly or part of the tone/gameplay as opposed to singular moments.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Mar 16th 2020 at 11:39:56 AM

I think the examples in the Music section, particularly the last one, should also be brought up as an example of Catharsis Factor being used for non-interactive media and not as "damn, seeing the asshole get his karma felt good!"

Music

• Often the motivation of musicians in violent genres such as Death Metal, Gangsta Rap and Horrorcore. Punk Rock and Political Rap are examples of sociopolitically-oriented catharsis in music. In fact, some psychiatrists recommend that people with repressed anger listen to angry music as a way to let someone else "be angry for them."
• Twenty One Pilots entire body of work is intended to give peace of mind to people with depression or suicidal tendencies, something that both members suffer from.
• Following the tragic suicide of their lead singer in 2017, several music publications praised Linkin Park for offering people (especially young teens) with depression or repressed rage an outlet with which to purge their negative feelings. Afro Punk specifically mentioned how the band's Nu Metal blend of rap and rock appealed to young people of color, who are often expected to not listen to rock music and repress their anger, an opportunity to be angry that they would otherwise be denied on a regular basis.

Actually, I like the sound of those entries. They at least sound like what Catharsis Factor is supposed to be.

I think these would work better than the current Take That, Scrappy! approach that a lot of these entries currently have.

As for making another YMMV item regarding karma, I’m not to sure about that. I’m concerned about it being used for taking potshots at characters like Catharsis Factor is being used for right now.

Er, so is it about a person actively relieving stress or anger, or is it not? Catharsis is personal and implies doing something to get those emotions out, doesn't it?

While I think there's a trope for the idea of works built around giving people an outlet to express their frustrations safely, it's different from the idea of people being able to do so directly in an interactive medium. One is the A Clockwork Orange style where some people think the sheer violence is alluring due to not being able to express aggression in their daily life; the other is, say, playing a violent video game to get the same feeling in a more direct way.

I still think "Gaming Rampage Release" should be its own thing.

I think as long as the trope title for the YMMV about karma makes it clear that narrative intent is a factor, it won't be misused for characters the audience simply doesn't like.

If such a trope existed, I'd call it something along the lines of "Calculated Karmic Schadenfreude".

As for stress relieving music, it should have in and out of universe examples, only by a different name, such as "Tension Releasing Tunes".

I personally think that catharsis factor should be split between Gaming Rampage Release, Calculated Karmic Schadenfreude, and Tension Releasing Tunes (those are my ideas for working titles for the split concepts, I'm sure you guys can do better).

I'm going with consensus regardless; I just have these above suggestions to account for what Catharsis Factor is not meant for.

Edit: I didn't notice the second paragraph; the YMMV part of Calculated Karmic Schadenfreude is whether the writers succeeded in getting the audience to feel good about the Hate Sink's negative karma; labeling it as catharsis factor is misuse, but it is essentially an inversion to Designated Monkey, in that the audience feels that the character's suffering is warranted, and based on Designated Monkey's existence, not everyone is going to feel that way about the character's karma.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 17th 2020 at 9:37:37 AM

I think the music stuff that was posted shows that there's a way for this to work for non-interactive works. If this thread decides that this is applicable to non-interactive works, I don't have a strong opinion on whether video game examples should be split off into a separate Audience Reaction.

Either way, I don't think merely seeing a hated character have something bad happen to them should count as Catharsis Factor. If the character is The Scrappy, that's just Take That, Scrappy!, and if the character is a Hate Sink, they're supposed to be hated, so seeing them get their just deserts would just be an Intended Audience Reaction.

Edit: The second paragraph of this post wasn't there when I initially made this post. I'm tired at the moment, so I didn't notice if the above response to this post was added before or after I added that paragraph.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 17th 2020 at 8:19:09 AM

Honestly, I'm leaning towards Sky's position.

I don't mind having two separate tropes, but a third for Music-specific examples seems unnecessary. The difference between Video Games and other Mediums is the interactivity, allowing people to take out their emotions directly. I'm not sure there's a difference between other non-interactive mediums and music.

The thing I’m concerned about making that Karma YMMV is that, is it noteworthy to mention people cheering when a villain gets their comeuppance? I feel like it’d be like having an item for popular main characters. It’s just sort of expected for a work.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 18th 2020 at 4:46:57 PM

Which is why my preferred variant isn't to focus on Cathartic Karma, but Cathartic Moments acted out by characters who act the way the viewers only wish they could, even if just to channel their frustration. Something that satisfies those primal urges to see violence and action.

Fair enough. I mean, generally, it's often more noteworthy when the author fails to accomplish such a goal miserably.

I will say that if we do keep calculated karmic schadenfreude, we keep it as a moments/just for fun page, or on darth wiki or something, with a boxing glove as an icon. I'm leaning towards Just for Fun.

I still think Gaming Rampage Release is tropeworthy in its own right.

I think I get what you are saying. The problem is, a lot of times, viewers wish they could get away with violence against despicable people, ranging from obnoxious partiers and gold diggers, to self righteous mass murderers and rapists, or at least point at them and laugh at their real life misfortune, even though such behaviour is generally considered socially unacceptable at best, and immoral at worst.

Okay, so we keep catharsis factor for when consuming certain media soothes our nerves, then? I'm on board with that.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 18th 2020 at 5:52:40 AM

There used to be an Audience Reaction for popular main characters (Fan Favorite), which was made due to Ensemble Dark Horse only being applicable to lesser characters. It was cut because it was determined to be a meaningless Intended Audience Reaction.

Also, for the record, I'm not in favor of separating music examples from other non-interactive examples. If we split this, I think just two Audience Reactions (one specific to actions in video games, and one for other types of works, the latter of which would include music) would be sufficient.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 18th 2020 at 4:45:57 AM

Didn't Fan Favorite last for like a month before the mods came in and said that's Not a Trope?

Anyway, splitting between gaming and non seems like a good idea. This reminds me of Stop Helping Me, which got the original intended definition split off into Annoying Video Game Helper.

Edited by Discar on Mar 21st 2020 at 6:40:10 AM

Several days without discussion, this probably means it's crowner time.

I agree.

I never saw the Fan Favorite page myself. I'm just going by what I've read.

How would In-Universe Catharsis fit into this discussion?

I'm not sure if it even does, since Catharsis Factor is about the audience, while In-Universe Catharsis isn't. Unless you're referring to the latter's references to the former, in which case we may need to make tweaks to it if we do something with Catharsis Factor.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 16th 2020 at 12:00:56 PM

Sorry for the double post, but I think we're overdue for a crowner. I'd make it myself, but I'm not sure what to put on it, so I'm refraining from making one (at least for now).