Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment - Violations, misuse, and other issues

Well, he was really good at chess, and... oh, you said Bryan.

Doesn't seem like he's actually created any fiction. I say nuke it.

The Ben Shapiro page is an interesting case because it's definitely not as straightforward as the holocaust denial webcomic, but it's still prime bait for flame/edit wars.

At first I was going to agree with just cutting any pages for active and controversial political pundits, because they're the pages that will constantly cause arguments, but I'm not sure that would really work in the long run because there would still be arguments and edit wars over whether the commentator in question is controversial enough to be cut, and what quantifies a 'political pundit' in the first place. Though even without a definition, we could still judge on a case-by-case basis, as we did with Stonetoss.

If kept, there's no need for the page to be so thoroughly negative about Ben that it becomes preachy, but if someone is happy to say "Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage," (which is amazingly still up on his Twitter) then we should be able to call him a racist without worrying that we're sounding too judgemental.

Mainly I'm just upset that his YMMV page doesn't mention "FUCKING AQUAMAN?!?"

I don't think Shapiro should be cut. He's nowhere near Stonetoss tier-bad, I think we can all agree. But I don't agree YMMV pages or the other pages need to be purged of any reference to bad opinions of the individuals.

Shapiro's a bigot. It shouldn't be taboo on a YMMV page for a guy who openly disparages entire races and gender identities. Whitewashing so it's just praise is just as lacking in neutrality as endless bashing

Why does he even have a YMMV page? I thought creators weren't supposed to have those?

That's actually a good question as yes they aren't ?

They can have pages if it's about their works. I don't exactly feel like checking his to see if it's about his work.

Seems like pretty much everything on YMMV.Ben Shapiro has to with Ben as a person rather than his works, so that makes it even more cut-worthy.

Edited by jandn2014 on Nov 24th 2020 at 1:29:36 PM

I've cutlisted it.

Thank you.

Speaking of very... inflammatory figures, I found page dedicated to Moon Man, a series of alt-right memes that center around turning Mac Tonight into racist, fascist-spewing character that raps about murdering minorities and the like.

Thankfully, it doesn't seem to be cross-wicked at all and it's only been edited by a couple of people, but is this another Stonetoss situation where the material is so vile, it's impossible to present it in a neutral fashion? Especially since the Anti-Defamation League recognizes the character as a hate symbol.

I'm not even convinced memes are tropeworthy to begin with, let alone political ones like that.

Join me.

Eh, I mean, Stonetoss was like, open holocaust denial and conspiracy theories about Jews, this Moon Man page probably isn't as-

Oh.

Oohhhhhhhh.

Welp, that's an immediate vote to cut from me. How do these things keep turning up on here?

4chan, man...this type of stuff is one of the many reasons why I don't like 'em.

I think that Moon Man started out as an ironic thing, but was later appropriated by the alt-right and turned into a real hate symbol.

Sigh, I remember a time where I thought Moon Man was funny, with the joke being that Moon Man's positions were so extreme and awful, no one could possibly take it seriously... right? For what it's worth, I'm of Chinese descent myself, so the kind of people that ruined the Moon Man meme would probably use it against me.

That makes this more of a grey area. It started out as an ironic Crosses the Line Twice meme, not a seemingly-legitimate statement on politics like Stonetoss's work. Also, this doesn't seem to be a meme, but a music video series? Which is tropable.

I dunno...it doesn't look like the page is being used to boost fascist ideas, since it describes the Moon Man as evil and racist, not any sort of legitimate source of political information. I don't think it's a problem to objectively record a work like this if the page isn't gushing about it. It doesn't even link to any of the videos.

(For the record, I obviously don't approve of the meme, especially people using it just to be racist under a "Just Joking" Justification. It's just not exactly the same as Stonetoss as this seems to be troping a work with a racist character, as opposed to a series of racist opinions.)

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 24th 2020 at 9:42:06 AM

I mean, it's still a meme and I still don't really believe memes are tropeworthy anyway, and with how controversial and extreme it is, even a negatively written article might not be wanted here. Plus it increases the odds of someone to come along and claim, like with Stonetoss, that it's "ironic" and try to force us into a neutral stance.

Ah, yeah, I don't think the page should exist, but that's more because Moon Man isn't really a work of its own. Anyone can make their own Moon Man song, and have it be just as canon as every other one.

FYI, Moon Man is also on Pantheon.Memes as the god of Memetic Psychopaths, but his name is potholed to YTMND rather than the WebOriginal.Moon Man page itself. Not sure if we can or should force them to remove it, considering the Pantheon still has gods from Monster Girl Quest which was cut by the P5.

Edited by rjd1922 on Nov 24th 2020 at 9:29:15 AM

And shouldn't it be in Music/?

I mean it describes the Moon Man character as if he's objectively depicted as evil in the work. Maybe this is true for some early videos? I'm not gonna watch the videos to find out. If anybody can make the meme, then maybe we can just...avoid listing the videos made by out and proud white supremacists?

It just gets fuzzy when we apply this logic about hate speech to work that isn't explicitly meant to promote politics and only promote politics. There's entertainment value here....it's not good entertainment, IMO, but I think cutting it would be even more controversial than letting it stay. Remember that extended Slippery Slope Fallacy nonsense during the Stonetoss debate?

This logic about meme pages makes me wonder if we should keep Hitler Rants around. It's also a page describing a type of meme that anybody can make.

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 24th 2020 at 11:46:52 AM

From the description of Digital Piracy Is Evil:

For the polar opposite, see Digital Piracy Is Okay. This is a heated debate in real life, and both sides of it are rife with inaccuracies and strawman statements. There are much more nuances to the matter and the sides than they often given credit for.

That statement can apply to almost every argument ever. It's not so much ROCEJ violating as it is pointless. The strawman fallacy is covered in the description already anyway.

Surprise, surprise, there's already an edit war going on in the Ben Shapiro page.

Maybe we should PRLC it?