The Woobie Cleanup

Here is my write up for Simon Tarses:

• Star Trek: The Next Generation: From the season 4 episode Drumhead, Simon Tarses is a medical assistant to Dr. Crusher and enthusiastic young Star Fleet crewman. When J'Dan, a Klingon exchange officer, is found out to be a spy for the Romulans, who transmitting information through medical injects Tarses helped administer, Tarses is immediately seen as a co-conspirator for J'Dan. Admiral Norah Satie, a high ranking Star Fleet admiral who seeks out conspiracies, immediately wants him, his family and friends investigated. Satie accuses Tarses of causing an explosion in the Enterprise's warp core, despite that explosion was proven to be an accident. Satie continues to hound Tarses, discovering that his grandfather was a Romulan, rather than a Vulcan, with Tarses having lied on his application. Satie and her team use that as proof her allegations against Tarses. Even though Picard publically discredits Satie, Tarses's mistake is something he has to live with and his career is ruined in the process.

Edited by Overlord on Apr 20th 2019 at 9:25:51 AM

Yes to Senua.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

to Simon and Senua. Not sure about Herzen for now - can we say for certain whether he's an Iron Woobie or just a straight Woobie?
Okay, so here's the fourth Outnumbered candidate: Jake.

Who is Jake?

Jake is the oldest of the kids. At the beginning of the series he is 11, and about to start secondary school; by the finale he is 21.

What is his predicament?

Season 1 begins with 11-year-old Jake starting secondary school, where he's worried about being the smallest person there (well, as Pete points out, he's not the smallest - but the one smaller kid has dwarfism). He seems to become more sullen, refusing to talk about school ("It was school"), and developing a fatalistic interest in the end of the world, frequently discussing the various ways humanity might become extinct. Angela believes he's suffering from depression, but Pete thinks he's being bullied. Sue thinks Pete is just being paranoid (he was bullied himself for years as a kid, and the school where he teaches is... pretty rough, to the point that he casually mentions in the pilot that two of his students were shot with an air rifle during the holidays). When questioned further, Jake is annoyed, and later claims he's joined a gang. However, in the third episode, Karen notices bruises on Jake's arm. He claims it was "a big boys' game" and suggests it be their little secret.
When pressed again, Jake sidesteps the question, mentioning that a friend of his whose parents are getting divorced, and he seems to be worried that Pete and Sue may be going down the same path. They reassure him they aren't, and are relieved to think that they were worrying about nothing. Then they get a phone call from school, confirming that Jake is indeed being bullied.
Pete tries to intervene, but Jake isn't willing to talk about it, and tries to convince him that everything's fine. When Pete learns that the bully, Preston, has stolen Jake's mobile phone, he is furious, saying he's going to go to the school personally and demand further action. Jake positively begs him not to, claiming that Pete's intervention only ever makes things worse. ^note He's got a point. Pete is at this time in trouble of his own over an extremely ill-judged wisecrack he made to a pupil, and, having been told not to talk to the press, attempted to fob a journalist off by replying "I don't know" to all questions - which, as we learn later in the episode, got twisted into "I don't know why I should apologise".
In the season finale, though, Jake seems to have cheered up, and has his phone back. It eventually turns out that he made friends with a bigger kid named Connor, who beat Preston up for him. Pete and Sue don't know how to react to this - on the one hand, they can't condone having a kid beaten up, even a bully, but on the other... they're kind of impressed.
In the second season Jake, now 12, makes friends with a girl, Jo. Pete and Sue try to find out, as discreetly as possible, whether his interest in her is more than platonic, while Ben taunts him about being in love, which leads to them fighting. Jake repeatedly insists they're just friends, although he grows agitated when she goes for a while without texting him. They arouse his parents' suspicion when the two of them disappear up to his room together and won't talk about what they're doing, but they were just playing on the computer, which his parents had tried to ban for that day. When Pete (under protest; Sue forced him into it) tries to give him The Talk, Jake laughs this off, as he's covered it all in school and has no plans to have sex until he's at least 14. He also announces out of the blue that they're going to the cinema with some friends, and reacts angrily when they won't let him. (Later, Pete and Sue themselves return late from a night out; Jake points out their hypocrisy.) In the finale, he agrees to lie if Jo's dad calls to ask if she's there, but starts to realise she doesn't really care about him; when she asks him again he refuses.
In Season 3, now 13, he starts to argue with Pete during a day out, which Sue observes is part of growing up. (At the end of the episode Pete overhears him on the phone and it turns out he actually enjoyed the day, but when he realises his dad is there he starts hastily backtracking.) He goes on to argue with Pete about other things, including 9/11 (he's been reading conspiracy theories online).
Meanwhile, he starts hanging out with friends who gawp at women together, much to Sue's annoyance (although he points out that she and her friends do the same with the builder across the street), and also develops a crush on a PhD student named Kelly. She turns out to be working as the waitress at the restaurant when the family goes out for dinner with Angela, Brick and Taylor-Jean; Brick spends a lot of the time looking at Kelly's chest, which she notices and later remarks on to Jake with some annoyance. He agrees that it's a shame some men treat women like pieces of meat. In the finale, Kelly is hired to babysit, where it's revealed that he told her she was 16; he's clearly embarrassed when she finds out he lied. During an argument with Ben he accidentally blurts "I do not want to kiss Kelly!" and ends up running for his bedroom.
In Season 4, now 15, he arouses his parents' suspicions when he buys a new jacket, despite having previously had no money. He claims (and it seems to be true) that the band he's joined got paid for a gig at a birthday party, but his parents think he's mixed up in drugs; there's a rumour that a kid at his school named Oliver is selling them, and Jake has a friend named Oliver. When they press the issue, he snaps angrily that it's the other Oliver.
Pete tries to bond with him through classic movies (which Pete always talks through) and Subbuteo (which Jake doesn't rate highly compared to computer games). He also acquires a nickname, "Jailbait", after he starts dating a 19-year-old pole dancer - who thinks he's 17 - but it turns out she also lied about her age; she's 16. His parents aren't sure whether they should be relieved that she's not too old to be his girlfriend or worried that she's too young to be a pole dancer.
In the Christmas 2012 special, Jake, now 17, heads off to a band party, announcing he'll be back around 2. However, the whole band comes back while the Brockmans' own house party is still on. Then a policeman comes round. It turns out a friend of his set off a rocket, which went through the door of a church where a carol service was taking place. The policeman tells Jake it started a fire which put two people in hospital, to his obvious horror. The policeman then reveals he made that up to make him think about his actions.
In Season 5, he continues to clash with his parents, getting a tattoo (then immediately realising it was a mistake, but they won't pay for him to have it removed), and even wrestling with Pete over a seat on the sofa. His parents both try to teach him to drive, without much success. On one occasion he suggests they give Karen too much slack, but they call his bluff and let him try to "parent" her. He ends up spouting a bunch of clichés about life not earning her a living, it not being a one-way street, meeting people halfway etc., but she just declares it all drivel and wanders off. He's worried about the future and plans on having a gap year, unsure if it's worth applying to university, but Sue helps him with his applications - although she has to rewrite his personal statement after learning it's full of lies.
In the Christmas 2016 special he's 21, and has a new girlfriend, Kate, who his mother really likes (she had her over for Christmas). It turns out, though, that he's planning to dump her, due to his having got a job in Canterbury (the one in New Zealand, not the one in Kent). Kate learns this while on the family outing after Pete accidentally lets it slip, leaving her devastated (and her mother, who had arrived to pick her up, furious). His parents are clearly distressed at the thought of him moving away, but they support his decision.

Can he defend himself?

Well, as far as the first season is concerned I suppose that depends on whether or not having a big kid beat up a bully counts as defending himself. (Well, you could say he uses his ability to make friends and think outside the box as his weapons...) Over the rest of the series, he doesn't tend to let his problems weigh him down significantly.

Is he a Jerkass?

Well, he has his moments. In the third season he downloads a picture of a naked woman onto the family computer - it's one of his teachers, and was covertly taken by a classmate when she was sunbathing in her garden. (Worse still, it's apparently been shared all over the Internet.) He doesn't seem to see any difference between this and his mother's celebrity gossip magazines, which he points out also invade people's privacy. In the fifth, he makes friends with a girl, Alex, while "on a break from" his current girlfriend Lizzie, and has her stay for the night (she lost her keys, supposedly), although he's clearly annoyed when his parents have them sleep in different rooms. When word about this gets out, it turns out Lizzie was curiously unaware about this "break" they were on, and he's bombarded with texts telling him he's a sleazebag. There's also the incident with Kate in the finale, although that wasn't entirely his fault.

Sympathy Standard?

Okay... so the bullying he goes through in the first season is clearly horrible, no doubt about that. The trouble is, it's resolved at the end of the season with little fanfare, and isn't brought up again. And while he has his issues throughout the rest of the series - problems with romantic relationships, efforts to establish his own independence - these are basically just the problems of an average teenage boy/young man. To be honest, I don't think he really stands out that much.

Verdict?

In all honesty... I don't think Jake counts.

EDIT:I was actually referring less to the fact that he broke up with her and more the fact that he handled the situation pretty badly, leaving her heartbroken and her mother furious. Although, again, this isn't really his fault; it was Sue who invited her along, and Pete who let it slip, leaving Jake in a situation he wasn't prepared for. Essentially, this is a situation which could be read as jerkassery on his part (hence needs bringing up in a discussion on whether the character is a jerkass or not), but once the context is considered, it isn't really. I should probably have been a bit clearer on that point.

Edited by CloisterTheStupid on Apr 24th 2019 at 9:32:30 AM

Senua. Jake.

to Jake.

No to Jake.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

I see Jake's been sorted. Fair enough, I guess.

I don't understand why Max and Lily from Coronation Street, who lost their mum, and are obviously still suffering, were removed.

Oh, and btw, the Kate thing about Jake you mention- what's "Jerkass" about recognising that with you being in New Zealand, and her being in England, that your relationship probably needs to end? That's sensible

Just popped in to say with Avengers: Endgame stuff out in the world I'm avoiding forums until I see it. Yes, there's the two week spoiler policy but I don't want to risk it. I don't know when I'm seeing Endgame so I'm not sure when I'll be back.

Until then, see ya!

Jake

IPP Wick Check created.

Yeah, we get it, Jake's not a Woobie -_- I believe I asked you about Max and Lily??

~Caring Guy, Master Joseph wasn't responding to your post, but to the "Effort Post". In this thread, examples are proposed with an "Effort Post" to describe who they are, and how they fit within the work. Then posters vote upon if they believe the character fits the trope requirements or not.

As far as I know, Effort Posts must be made in good faith, meaning you must actively try to show why the character fits, even if you disagree. Then other posters chime in with their opinions on the verdict: /, or "belongs to ~this~ Sub-Trope". If five or more posters agree with the verdict than disagree, the character is considered an example (sometimes the text of the example is added to the thread for review, but it doesn't seem needed). The reverse osmosis also true; if five or more posters disagree compared to the number who do agree, then the character is not considered an example.

---

Counting your post as a for Jake, Master Joseph was merely adding a fifth "no" to the ongoing poll.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

So since there's 10 yeas for Nooroo and 0 nays, can I go ahead and put him back up on YMMV.Miraculous Ladybug?

I've been wondering: can one of the seamen, Abraham Akbar, from Return of the Obra Dinn, go under Iron Woobie or Stoic Woobie? Here's my take on it:

He has lost his two fellow Indian seamen, Soloman Syed and Renfred Rajub, to the pneumonia they had taken at the lascar house on their journey, and he and his partner William Wasim had to give them Burial at Sea. Later on, he has lost Wasim due to a freak accident in which a mermaid striking down Cook Thomas Sefton caused the seamen carrying it to tumble downstairs and Wasim to strike his head on a barrel, with the mermaid crushing him. And later on, when Akbar is ordered by Christian Wolff to light the cannon's fuse intended to fire it at the kraken in an attack gone horribly wrong, Wolff quickly orders him to put out the fuse; and it is likely that Akbar is intending to save him and George Shirley from suffering a horrible fate when he is crushed by the cannon the beast is holding that would blow Wolff (and possibly Shirley) to smithereens. After all that Akbar's been through, you feel really bad for him and want to spare him from being deduced as their attacker, because he needs a well-deserved rest. (If you want to avoid blaming him, the game does accept "exploded" and "shot with a cannon by a terrible beast" as the cause of death for both men as well, and quite possibly "fell overboard" and "drowned/eaten/torn apart by a terrible beast" as the cause of death for Shirley too.)

Please give an effort post.

And please read the rest of the rules on the first post too.

IPP Wick Check created.

From The Conjuring Universe we have the sixth installment The Curse of La Llorona. It is about the titular Mexican urban legend of a ghostly spirit who haunts a Hispanic family with the intent of spiriting away the mother's children at any cost.

Who is she? What is her predicament?

According to legend, La Llorona, Spanish word for "Weeping Woman," was once a poor woman who lived in Mexico back in 1673. She married a wealthy young man and had two sons with him. However, he eventually lost interest in her, so he found an even younger lover, pushing her to the curb. Enraged, La Llorona developed a deep, unbridled rage. Without thinking clearly, La Llorona drowned both of her children. Realizing what she had done too late, she threw herself into the river, hopeful that she would reunite with her boys in the afterlife. Unfortunately, she committed two of the most terrible of sins; murder and suicide. As such, she received a challenge from Heaven and was cursed to be forever between the land of the living and the dead until she found her sons.

What had she done?

500 years later, La Llorona began to haunt the Alvarez family in 1970s Los Angeles, California. Through whatever means, La Llorona marks Patricia's sons for taking, and when Anna Tate-Garcia, a social worker, arrives to collect the two boys, La Llorona tracks them to a child services center and drowns both of them in a river. Patricia, desiring revenge on Anna for her unwittingly causing the deaths of her sons, prayed to La Llorona continually begging her to take Anna's children in return for her own children getting brought back to life. When Anna was called to the crime scene, her son Chris heard La Llorona's incessant sobbing, and is marked by her. The next day, Anna's daughter Samantha is alone outside on a rainy day. As her umbrella gets blown into the pool, she retrieves it...only to get branded by the ghostly woman. After noticing that her children were unresponsive after their encounters, La Llorona tries to drown Samantha in the bath tub and brands Anna herself before escaping.

The family head to the church the next morning and receive advice from Father Perez (the same priest that was sent out to investigate a case regarding a certain doll) to get into contact with an ex-priest, Rafael Olvera. Patricia arrives to the house to attempt to sacrifice Samantha and Chris to La Llorona and traps Anna to keep her from interfering. The two children sprint into the attic with Chris getting a hold of La Llorona's necklace. Holding her necklace in front of her, La Llorona gets temporarily distracted and starts to morph back into her original, human appearance. Eventually, Anna manages to overpower La Llorona by stabbing her in the chest with a Fire Cross, an ancient artifact that was carved from the wood of the trees that served as the only "witnesses" to La Llorona's original crimes.

Sympathy standard

So, the plausible issues regarding La Llorona is that the film treats La Llorona as a monster first and foremost to where she is largely an obstacle that needs to be stopped. However, while she may not be overly sympathetic in her actions, they stem from her past. Everything she does is her attempt at trying to atone from murdering her sons senselessly, and when she was distracted by her necklace, she transformed gradually back to her human self. The significance to the necklace was one of her deceased sons gave it to her, which was something that she held dear. Her getting stood up by her husband was also bad in and of itself. It's not even getting into the fact she is forever barred from the afterlife by being made to do this fruitless task.

Is she a jerkass?

Murdered her children in cold blood and drowns other children when she realized they weren't her own. But again, this stems back to her backstory and while it doesn't absolve her of her actions, it falls in line with them.

Why Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds?

Because she had killed who knows how many children all as a way of trying to undo her curse.

Can she defend herself/Does she have a strong will?

As a supernatural entity? Yes, she can defend herself with her only weaknesses being holy water, good luck charms, and the Fire Cross. As for the strong will...she is persistent with finding her dead children. However...she seems to be unable to tell the difference between her biological children and the ones she kidnaps and murders. And her murdering her children years ago pretty much made her not of sound mind to begin with.

Verdict

WDOW

to La Llorona as a WDOW.

Belated Yes for Simon. One thing I would possibly emphasise is that part of what makes him a Woobie is the lie itself: to have a career in Starfleet, he can't admit to his Romulan heritage because the Romulans are still the enemies of Starfleet and are particularly known for their habits of engaging in long-term, deep-cover spy missions (indeed, another episode of TNG deals with the Enterprise delivering a very highly respected Vulcan diplomat to the Romulans for sensitive negotiations, only to discover far too late that this Vulcan diplomat was a long-term Romulan spy and they've just delivered her (along with all the intel she's collected over many years) safely back to Romulus). While the conversation at the end of the episode indicates that, if Simon hadn't lied on his application form, his career might have been salvageable, the truth is that he would have had to lie unless he already had the kind of family connections that could get him passed the entry hurdle with such a disadvantageous family background (such as Saavik being sponsored by Spock or Nog being sponsored by Sisko), and Simon never had that option.

So Simon was in an impossible situation to begin with: he couldn't have a proper Starfleet career with Romulan ancestry unless he lied, but the lie itself would also prevent him from having a proper Starfleet career if it was ever discovered.

Simon is therefore a victim of circumstance both by birth and by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Apr 28th 2019 at 6:13:06 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Yes to La Llorona.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

I nominate Mr. Link/Susan from Laika's Missing Link.

What is the work?

This is a film released by Laika on April 12th, 2019. The film is about a monster hunter named Sir Lionel Frost trying to reunite a sasquatch known simply as Mr. Link (though he gains the name Susan later on) with some yetis in the Himalayas.

Who is he? What is their predicament?

Mr. Link/Susan is a sasquatch who has spent many lonely years in the Pacific Northwest as the last of his kind. He sends a message to Frost over in England to help him find others similar to him. They travel a long and dangerous journey while being stalked and hunted by a bounty hunter until they arrive at the Himalayas where the yetis rule. However, the yetis turn out to be paranoid of outsiders, including sasquatches, which are described as "their hillbilly cousins", and Mr. Link and his human companions are imprisoned in a pit to die. Mr. Link is understandably heartbroken by this, especially since his apparent only friend, Sir Frost, cared more about being famous than actually trying to help him.

Can they defend themselves?/Are they a jerkass?

If Mr. Link can defend himself, he doesn't do it very much. He spends most of the climax running more than fighting. It's been a while since I've watched the film, but IIRC, Sir Frost does most of the fighting for him.

No, Mr. Link is certainly not a jerkass. He is very kind and gentle.

Sympathy Standard

Mr. Link is the most sympathetic and tragic character in the film without a doubt.

Verdict?

I say he goes under plain old Woobie. What do you guys think? Anyone else here who've seen the film who can decide?

Edited by MrMediaGuy2 on Apr 30th 2019 at 11:06:08 AM

Tentative for Mr. Link; it seems like a clear-cut case of Woobie, it's just the fact that it hasn't been watched in a while.

Not sure about La Llorona, as it sounds like she isn't treated that sympathetically by the narrative.

Also, apologies for not being in the thread as of late- been distracted by various other obligations, on-site and off. I'm still planning to get through the LOZ series though.

they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob

Opinions about the Mule seemed to be generally supportive after the Effort Post. Here's the proposed example write-up:

Isaac Asimov's "The Mule" (part of the Foundation series):

• The Woobie: Deliberately [Invoked] by Magnifico, who is a persona created by the Mule, for the purpose of infiltrating the Foundation. Bayta Darell is immediately sympathetic to his plight and appearance. He tells her about the physical and emotional abuse he's suffered at the hands of the Mule, and begs their help in escaping Kalgan. She only stops feeling sympathetic, "motherly" in Toran's words, once she realizes that Magnifico is the Mule that they've been running from.
• Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds: The Mule, alias Magnifico Gigantico, is initially introduced to the protagonists as a large man of immense strength and power. In truth, he's an ugly, miserable, scrawny little man, who has been emotionally abused by everyone around him for two decades. Once he realized that he had Psychic Powers that other people didn't, he decided to take revenge on the cruel uncaring galaxy by conquering it.
  "I decided that the Galaxy and I could take turns. Come, they had had their innings, and I had been patient about it - for twenty-two years. My turn! It would be up to the rest of you to take it! And the odds would be fair enough for the Galaxy. One of me! Quadrillions of them!" — The Mule

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

You know a WDOW is not inherently sympathetic, right?

If there's no sympathy required for WDOW, out-of-universe or in, then what separates it from Freudian Excuse?

they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob

Because it's blatantly obvious that the actions she commits fall in line with the FE?

For the whole sympathy debate, you could read that here.

Edited by AustinDR on May 5th 2019 at 10:48:46 AM