During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The wifi here sucks
Yeah, maybe Darkrai if he gets brought up again this year but aside from him I can't think of anyone who should go on there (honestly I'm just worried that people will be asking of characters should go on it too much like some do on CM). Also a minor thing, Write a Magnificent Bastard kind of covers some of the ground that a NA list does, just thought that I should mention that.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
The reason I don't want to put it there is because that's A) a just for fun page covering everything about writing an MB and B) lists Obito under the tread with caution section, though out of warning that's how to write one in a bad way.
Alright so here’s my second possible Watch_Dogs candidate, I initially overlooked him, but after we approved Grunkle Stan, I think that he is worth a shot. Introducing the most popular character in the whole series, and possibly the smartest here’s Raymond "T-Bone" Kenny.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Raymond Kenney, also known as T-Bone Grady, is a legendary hacker within the world of Watch Dogs, who was hired by the Blume Corporation to create the Central Operating System, CTOS for short. However Raymond would get fire once he learns of Blume’s nefarious plans to use CTOS to spy on people and control society as a whole.
To show the public the dangers of an entire infrastructure relying on one system, Raymond would hack into CTOS causing Northeast Blackout of 2003, leading to the deaths of eleven people. Raymond would go into hiding, while his actions led to the creation of the hacking group known as DedSec, who sought to fight Blume and view Raymond as their idol.
Eventually residing in Chicago he would be recruited by Aiden Pearce who Raymond would get Aiden to help him in fending off hitmen and would later help Aiden in encrypting the stolen date, retrieve it when it was stolen by Default, rescue Nichole from Brenks captivity, dismantle Lucky Quinn’s organization, and temporary shut down CTOS when Damien Brenks hijacks it and causes chaos.
Some time later, Raymond was contact by Tobias Weaver, and warning him that fixers were hired to kill him and Weaver. Raymond would tail the fixer and learn that the fixers were hired by Default, who reveals himself to the brother of one of the people who got killed during the blackout that Raymond caused. After fending off of the fixers sent by Default, Raymond goes to his hideout to put an end to Default’s antics.
However he is soon caught in a trap planned by Default, where he attempts to gas him to death. Luckily with quick thinking Raymond hacks into the air veneration system, which Raymond uses to trap Default into his room and poor the lethal gas onto him, leading to Defaults death.
Deciding to resume his crusade against Blume, he goes to San Francisco to host the the event called Swelter Skelter, to find talented hackers where he puts them into various challenges before recruiting them to his cause against Blume. Of all the hackers the DedSec cells consisting of Marcus Halloway, Sitara Dhawan, Josh Sauchak, and Horatio Carlin and Wrench and recruits them into his crusade against Blume.
From there, he would convert the hacker group who prior to Raymond were a bunch of harmless hacking pranksters, to become a much more efficient rebellious group and becoming a genuinely dangerous threat to Blume, while putting the group into much more dangerous missions in his pursuit to stop Blume, while getting millions of followers to join their and to an extent his cause. One example has Raymond use a robot that Ded Sec has stolen to create an EMP bomb to blow up a company building.
Eventually, Raymond was able to help Marcus find evidence that tech billionaire Dusan Nemec was using CTOS 2.0 for his own selfish gain allowing them to expose Dusan leading to his arrest while they continue their fight against Blume and gaining more supporters along the way.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As a computer programer turned hacker that created the computer system that controls the world, Raymond is easily intelligent to count. With an extant knowledge of his system Raymond is able to use it to orchestrate many hacks, come up with many complex plans that would help him and his allies, and is a capable of thinking on the fly which saved his life on many occasions.
As for charisma, he is extremely popular in both in-universe and out-universe with Raymond being idolized by Dedsec and other hacking group and out-universe, his charming, affable, and care-free personality has made Raymond beloved by many fans (including myself) making Raymond the series Breakout Character.
The only time Raymond drops his charming demeanor is when Default forces him to remember the people Raymond got killed in the the blackout, but even then Raymond quickly regains his composure simply ops to stop Default.
What’s The Competition Like?
Raymond is one of, if not the, most brilliant, charming, and popular character within the series with Raymond playing a major role in orchestrating the defeats of each Big Bad brilliantly outsmarting them all, with the most notable example being Default. Really the only ones coming close to Raymond is Aiden and Jordi whom I already posted, while Marcus Halloway is too much of a hero to be considered a bastard
Is He a Bastard? Is She Too Much of a Bastard?
While I had previously had my doubts on Raymond, after seeing Stan’s EP made me reconsider Raymonds bastard credentials, and ultimately I decided that Raymond is enough of a bastard to be considered.
In short Raymond does orchestrate the 2003 blackout in New York knowing that it would lead to innocent casualties, help Aiden cause chaos and shut down CTOS in Chicago, has Default suffocate to death via toxic gas through air vents, convinces a group of otherwise harmless hackers to become more unscrupulous in there crusade against Blume having them commit more dangerous crimes and put in harms way, and is willing to cause collateral damage himself.
That said Raymond is never too much of a bastard to be disqualified. Raymond never does anything sadistic nor cruel, never commits deplorable crimes, doesn’t take joy in causing innocent casualties and actually showing guilt for causing them at one point, does come to like and respect his fellow hackers such as Aiden, Marcus, and his friend, and genuinely shows his condolences to Marcus when one of his hacker friends got killed
Final Verdict
I will leave it to you guys.
Also don't forget to vote for my other candidate Aiden Pearce
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 31st 2020 at 12:52:13 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Raymond.
Rawr.
I’ll say yeah to T-Bone, though the additional standout certainly solidified my opinion against Aidan.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Raymond. Abstain on Aiden.
Yea to T-Bone there.
Sooo...this came out on Shudder, film's from 2016....let's give it a go before I get to The Big One (as I've titled Ghost of Tsushima)
What's the work?
Don't Hang Up is a horror film centered in four teens; Brady, Sam, Roy and Mosley, or 'Prankmonkey 69'. Their bread and butter? Prank calls. Rather nasty ones. Such as when they call a lady named Mrs. Kolbein and convince her that an intruder is in her room going after her daughter. After she panics, they gloat she's been pranked and the video becomes a viral sensation.
What should happen later but the guys having fun, hanging out...Sam having issues with his girlfriend Peyton when...odd calls begin from a fellow calling himself Mr. Lee who seems to know quite a bit about them, insisting they not hang up...
Who is Mr. Lee?
This mysterious caller who seems to know a lot about the boys...then things spiral
They get pizza delivered they didn't order, that's delivered by Peyton who reveals that Mosley has disappeared. Mr. Lee then sends a video from Brady's home, revealing he has Brady's parents hostage. He takes control of the electrical grid and also hacks the phones so they can't call 911. Then things get real dark as Lee sends a video to their web-linked TV: their friend Roy held captive, as Mr. Lee coldly asks if this video will be a hit...before he kills Roy by binding a blasting bag over his head. Mosley is found not long after, dying of his own injuries....and Mr. Lee secretly gives Brady an offer: Sam's life for his parents....and to drive a wedge between them, Mr. Lee has footage of Peyton captive as well.
Sam and Brady come to blows, and Mr. Lee, anticipating everything, reveals he has stalked the boys for over a year from an account called 'Izzy' that appears to be a little girl, gathering information on them and hacking their accounts. He offers to let Sam live if he kills Brady and reveals a video Brady made of sleeping with Peyton. Sam beats Brady badly for it, but ultimately decides to work together. Mr. Lee? Sends another video revealing Brady's parents are already dead, prompting the two to be certain Peyton is as well.
Brady tries to escape and go behind Sam's back, but Mr. Lee has swapped places with Mosley's body and ambushes him. Sam sees the masked Mr. Lee attack him and fights back...only for it to be revealed that it was Brady gagged, bound with a knife in his hand and in the mask. The real Mr. Lee arrives and disables Sam, revealing his true identity: Mr. Kolbein.
His motivation? A year ago when they called his house with their prank? A terrified Mrs. Kolbein dropped her phone and hadn't heard it was a prank. Terrified or her daughter, Izzy, she grabbed a gun and accidentally shot Izzy, thinking she was an intruder when Izzy opened her bathroom door. She killed herself moments later. To force Sam to suffer like he has, Mr. Lee executes Peyton, leaving Sam to awaken with the murder weapons, framed for the deaths of Peyton, Mosley, Roy, Brady and Brady's parents. Mr. Lee? Gone.
With the epilogue revealing he's targeting a new malicious prankster.
How's he operate?
In a word, everything in the film goes just as planned. It's a bit unclear if he intends for everything as perfectly as it goes or if he mixes his schemes up a bit, like trying to turn Brady and Sam against one another. Either way, though, he plays a mean game of adaptation. He plans everything very well and leaves very little room for error, having stalked the two for a year to learn everything about them, exploiting their weaknesses frighteningly well. He pulls it off and gets away with it perfectly.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Going after the four boys would be justified. Brady's parents are quite innocent and he murders them to get to Brady, after giving him a Hope Spot as part of the plan. Peyton is not a nice or good person either and turns out to just be collateral for Lee's plan, but she didn't participate in the prank. Now, Lee restricts his malice to the boys and those in their orbit, and he absolutely terrorizes them with intent of destroying them. He's no sadist, operating with a chilling efficiency while rarely raising his voice....but his excuse for this?
Despite Sam's weak claims of "we never meant for anyone to get hurt," they called an innocent woman and tortured her with the belief an intruder was in the house and her little daughter was in mortal danger. Lee's rage at them is entirely justified as they absolutely got his family killed by their callous stupidity for fame clicks. While he goes way far in revenge, we have a lot of examples like this (like both incarnations of the Count of Monte Cristo willing to sacrifice innocents and mentally destroy their victims). I'm not inclined to see it as a bar.
Conclusion?
I'd give Mr. Lee a keep.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Raymond and Lee. Abstain on Aiden.
G are you handling the upcoming game as well.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 31st 2020 at 9:58:24 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yes to Lee.
to Raymond and Lee
Goku Black
Raymond, lee and defintily Shockwave (A true Genius Bruiser if ever their was one)
Ravok: Im cruious your famlair with the transformers IDW comics. Would anyone count as an mb their. It was the longest running continuity of transformers comics.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Mr. Lee.
Raymond and Mr. Lee. Abstain on Aiden.
to Mr. Lee.
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Lee.
Rawr.
Not sure why everyone's abstaining on Pierce. He might not be charming to everybody(I imagine if I played it, i'd hate him as a character), but he seems to have enough charm, cunning and tenacity. Weak Pierce.
Raymond.
Lee.
For me it's more that he gets by just by pushing through things, while T-Bone and Jordi are outright stated to be genius-level operators working with him and rely much more on brainwork.
Foreign Troper
No to Aiden. He has like zero Charisma.
Abstain on Kenny, don't remember that much about him.
Edited by Forenperser on Jul 31st 2020 at 7:36:25 PM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Furthermore, Aiden has tendency to fall into traps and saves himself by shooting his way out.
Goku Black
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Aiden
I feel like there were things left out of the EP then, since I'm not getting that he walked into traps that much.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Raymond and Lee but no to Aiden.
I got a potential Dice Funk candidate but I'm not sure if she's too much of a bastard, she's a Serial Killer who's been killing the corrupt elite of her city but my issue is the sheer bodycount since she'e been killing a person a day for a few months. She's very much a Well-Intentioned Extremist who doesn't want to hurt the lower class but I'm just not sure if her good intentions are outweighed by the number of victims she has.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
If she's a Serial Killer going after Asshole Victims I don't have a problem with it. Schwarzwald burned a group of elites to death quite cruelly and happily engages in mech fights in the middle of his city.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 31st 2020 at 2:11:02 PM
to Shockwave, Raymond Kenney and Mr. Lee.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I suppose it depends if all (or at least the majority) of her victims are corrupt, or if they just happen to be members of the elite. To many innocents would probably be to much, especially if her body count is really that high.
Edited by MGD107 on Jul 31st 2020 at 11:09:49 AM
I've gotten a few PMs about this and I'm with papyru here. I want that list as small as possible. Cartman, Darkrai, etc. are things we've always solved immediately, Azula kept turning into debates. No one has mentioned Dimentio since he was cut... this is not a garden I want to grow.