During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
... Future, just noticing this now: why are you soliciting the Batman tree when you were told it wasn't needed? There was a bad habit of creating them unnecessarily on CM, don't keep pushing this.
Goku Black
Oh right for order for arrowverse Should be either if we're going order of appearance
- Arrow:
- Slade
- Tockman
- Talia
If we want to go main villains on top then motws
We could do
- Arrow
- Slade
- Talia
- Tockman
Which do you think?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
RIP Toriyama
Yeah, Arrowverse is definitely gonna have several more Keepers, I could see its incarnation of Deadshot keeping for instance, if memory serves me correctly.
Alrighty, who's up for more DCAU Keepers, eh? With thanks to Lighty for recommending this one—and apologies that it's taken me months to get to—from Batman: The Animated Series, a two-shot villain...
'Who is Kyodai Ken? What makes him a candidate?
Kyodai Ken, referred to sometimes as simply "the Ninja," is the main villain of the episodes "Night of the Ninja" and "Day of the Samurai."
Long ago a bitter rival to Bruce Wayne during his time training in martial arts around the worldwide, Kyodai's rivalry with Wayne reached a new level when Wayne caught Kyodai trying to steal a treasured sword from their sensei, Yoru, and sell it for a fortune. Ousted from the training by Yoru following this reveal, Kyodai swore vengeance on Wayne, and years later...he comes to fulfill that promise.
Beginning to strike various Wayne Enterprises buildings across Gotham, Kyodai expertly and efficiently infiltrates security time and time again, burning down, blowing up, or shutting down the buildings's computer systems and slipping away before police arrive every time. In his first scene, Kyodai pumps gas into a Wayne building to incapacitate most of the security, and when one last guard tries to confront him with a gun and flashlight in hand, Kyodai disarms the man's gun and pins it to a wall with a single shuriken, and then slices his flashlight in half to leave him in darkness as Kyodai makes his escape.
When confronted by Batman during a later break-in, Kyodai, noting with a bow he's quite honored to meet the legendary hero, nonetheless gets into a duel with him. Though the two are evenly matched, Kyodai gets the upper hand by using a knockout-gas gun to throw Batman off, nearly striking a killing blow before the sudden arrival of Robin leads Kyodai to quickly dash away.
Kidnapping Bruce Wayne from his car—taking reporter Vicki Vale with him as she was a witness—Kyodai reveals to the captured Wayne that every time he struck a Wayne Enterprises building, he was simultaneously hacking the Wayne computer system and rerouting money to his own accounts, and brags that by the time he's done, Wayne's entire fortune will be Kyodai's before preparing to kill the man.
Distracted by the arrival of Robin, Kyodai faces the young hero on the roof of the building, showing respect to his skills but assuring him he is outmatched...when Robin takes shelter by a water tower, Kyodai lunges and strikes with his sword, seemingly missing Robin, only to then give the water tower a slight push, revealing he had used his sword to slice the supports, and sends the water tower crashing down on to Robin and sweeping him away.
Returning to his captives in time to find Wayne having freed himself, Kyodai fights his old rival in hand-to-hand combat, at first winning but ultimately overpowered by Wayne. Kyodai, realizing he's beaten, quickly jumps out of a window into a nearby river, escaping from capture for the time being.
Later returning, Kyodai kidnaps one of Yoru's current students, Kairi, and uses her as a hostage, demanding Yoru give Kyodai the map to a secret scroll that teaches the legendary fighting style known as "The Way of the Fang", which enables the user to kill someone with a single touch.
When Yoru sends Batman to make the exchange with Kyodai, Kyodai prepares to give Kairi over to Batman in exchange for the map, and though Kairi escapes her bonds and knocks Kyodai off-balance, Kyodai quickly just kicks her off the rooftop so that Batman will dive after her, leaving the map for Kyodai to swipe.
Following the map's directions and finding the scroll, Kyodai is at first distraught when the ancient parchment crumbles at a touch, but the resourceful Kyodai quickly scours the crumbled remains and finds a piece big enough to read, and smiles with glee as he recognizes it to be the instructions on performing the "O-Nemuri"—best translated as "Big Sleep"—which is the instant-kill death attack.
Practicing on a dummy for a time to prepare himself, Kyodai—having recognized Wayne and Batman's similar fighting styles—deduces that they are both one in the same, and tracks down Wayne's butler, Alfred. Kidnapping the man and using him to call out Wayne, Kyodai meets his arch enemy at an active volcano, noting how he impressed he is once more at Batman's capabilities when the hero sneaks up on him, even proclaiming Batman would have made a fine ninja.
As the duo duel, removing their masks at Kyodai's request, Kyodai ultimately inflicts the O-Nemuri on Batman, seemingly killing him, at which point Kyodai prepares to leave....only for Batman to reveal he still lives, bragging that the move doesn't work, and laying a beatdown on Kyodai until the volcano disrupts the land enough and breaks the rock Kyodai stands upon apart from the mainland, stranding it in the middle of pouring lava.
Batman, ever the hero, flings a rope to Kyodai and begs him to take it so Batman can save him. Kyodai, with a stern look and a final, honorable bow, kicks the rope from reach and accepts his date as the volcano explodes around him, lava and smog sweeping by and erasing Kyodai from Wayne's sight and the story forever....afterwards, Batman reveals that the only reason he survived the O-Nemuri attack was because he found Kyodai's training dummy before meeting him at the volcano, took note of the softest spot that had been struck the most, and put padding under his suit in that spot so that the strike would be ineffective.
Is Kyodai magnificent?
I'd say so, yep. Kyodai pulls off a string of successful heists before Batman even confronts him, successfully gets the upper hand on the hero many times between the two episodes, uses dirty tricks, his surroundings, and hostages to his advantage during fights, and ultimaty outplays Yoru and Batman himself to get the "Way of the Fang" scroll, with that plan only failing because Batman recognized soft spots on a test dummy.
Kyodai's definitely got some Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy going on, even referring to Wayne often as "rich man's son" and being generally prideful, but it's done in very entertaining, proud warrior style, with Kyodai's ego not coming between his genuine skills and respect for his opponents, never shy to admit how impressed his is with others' skills. Even when the O-Nemuri fails, Kyodai notes "That's impossible!", but steels up, continues to fight, and accepts ultimate defeat and death when beaten, even giving Batman a last, solemn bow as the volcano engulfs him.
Is Kyodai a bastard?
Indeed, his crimes are pretty bare especially for the DCAU, but Kyodai's still trying to ruin Wayne's life because Wayne exposed his attempted theft of Yoru's sword years ago, tries to kill him and (probably) Vicki as well, and uses Kairi and Alfred as hostages to get what he wants. His motive is pretty damn petty, all things considered, but given how much Kyodai values his pride as a warrior, his beef with Wayne is understandable—even if still petty as heck.
Final Verdict?
Keeper
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I like going multi-episode characters, then one-episode ones, since that's what we've been doing with Star Trek and I don't mind reversing the order on Teen Titans to be consistent. Yes to Kyodai. We've got a lot of DCAU characters now, there's a... there's a thing we'll be discussing there at some point before the summer's out.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Sure to Kyodai.
miraculous: I say go by the second one.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 24th 2020 at 12:50:17 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Kyodai.
How many DCAU characters do we have so far?
Goku Black
kyodai
@ Satoshi, A lot.
Based on the EP, to Kyodai.
The tree doesn’t really work anyway due to the disproportion of actions. Consider it dropped.
I’ll do a search on it, except was the DCAU Catwoman ever discussed?
Yes, the version from The Batman is listed.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I meant from The Animated Series. I did indeed vote on the version from The Batman.
RIP Toriyama
DCAU!Catwoman I wouldn't see keeping, tbh. She gets into a lot of trouble that she only gets out of with Batman's help, and I honestly don't recall her doing enough impressive feats to make up for all the times she gets captured or put in harm's way with zero capability of getting out without Batman's aid.
@miraculous: I'm with 43, I'd say multi-episode candidates first, then singular.
@Satoshi: 8 DCAU baddies so far keep for MB.
Speaking of DC Animation, how's this quote by Red Hood work?
Edited by Ravok on Jul 24th 2020 at 11:09:10 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Not that I recall.
I like it.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 24th 2020 at 2:10:34 PM
I imagine I know what the thing is. Anyways Kyodai.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 24th 2020 at 11:10:44 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
@Ravok: Somkme recommmeded DCAU riddler way back in the day. What do you think on him ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the Red Hood quote.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 24th 2020 at 1:17:13 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I'm reading his trope page, since I only watched the animated series intermittently as a kid and it indicates he's a textbook smug snake. Now the Smug Snake example could use far more context but the fact that he undermines himself with riddles isn't endearing me to him counting.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 24th 2020 at 11:23:03 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
Just asking. I didn't see much of the DCAU either as a kid. I grew up on The Batman instead which is why I'm uh kinder to the show then others are.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
RIP Toriyama
@miraculous: Nah, DCAU!Riddler is a great villain, and taking only his first episode into account where he pulls off The Bad Guy Wins to a point, he'd be a MB, but his later episodes show that he does not take loss well, and his final appearance in the show involves him basically signing his own defeat warrant when he admits to Batman all of his crimes despite his current Villain with Good Publicity status just so Batman will tell him how he escaped from Riddler's most brilliant death trap...and when Batman reveals he was broadcasting the conversation to police then refuses to tell Riddler how he got out of the trap, Riddler ends the episode locked up, screaming in rage and confusion "HOW DID HE DO IT?! I HAVE TO KNOW!", completely unconcerned that he's locked up and instead just outraged that Batman outsmarted him and Riddler doesn't even know how.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Has anyone from Batman The Braveandthe Bold been discussed? More specifically the Music Meister.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Goku Black
Yeah his Tue Batman version was pretty much the same. Great charismatic and intelligent villain who simply could not handle defeat well and proved To Clever By Half
Guess it fits with riddler who thinks he's better then he actually is.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Kyodai.
Music Meister is the ultimate mixed bag when it comes to this. On the one hand, he's fabulously charismatic, nearly succeeds in his scheme, (Hell, he actually pulls it off if I recall.) manages to pull dozens of costume changes during a high-speed chase (Talk about thinking on your feet!) but seems rather prone to frustration, Bond Villain Stupidity, and pettiness. Still, I think he's definitely worth an effortpost.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jul 24th 2020 at 11:59:08 AM
Goku Black
Would anyone mind if I handled arrowverse Deadshot. Since Ravok recommended him and I do think he'd make a good keep.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Go for it. Homie tends to count whenever he shows up.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]")
Bok.
Rawr.