During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Ravok is rereading the trilogy and will give a proper EP. Cut the rest, I know Palpatine has some divided opinions so that will be interesting. For Gus, can someone please EP him too? Before we decided what to do with him I'd like it all laid out on the table and even if most folks want him to stay, he will need a proper writeup.
Edit: As for my personal thoughts on Palps, I think he's unambiguously a Smug Snake when he thinks he's got all the chips so I'm a no.
Edit edit: Also, we've got locked main pages now, so no more people screwing around with them and I'll submit edit requests to the mods on Sundays. Yay!
edited 9th May '18 6:35:02 AM by 43110
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm divided on our beloved Emperor, he is way too sadistic and egocentric but...he is actually that smart.
Hard No to him on the OT and early Legends version but is his Prequel and Disney Canon versions are what confuse me.
Also, I can do the Rebels Thrawn Write Up?
edited 9th May '18 6:45:37 AM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
See, to me at least, regardless of how smart you are, there’s a ceiling to how... we’ll say “confident in yourself” you can be and Palps smashes through that to the point I can’t see his original incarnation counting.
As for the Thrawn thing? Talk to Ravok, he’s doing the lit version so see if he’s okay with you handling the Rebels one.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
So, are we going to have to cut the quotes and images of the characters that thread determines doesn't count? We have a similar policy with Complete Monster, so I wasn't sure if were going to apply that here.
Yea, I did that with the Lelouch quote on the animanga page.
Is it possible for a unambiguous good guy to be a Magnificent Bastard? Can the protagonist of a story be one?
Or does all that fall under Guile Hero?
Shin Megami Tensei IV
A Villain Protagonist can, a unambiguously good guy is a not, heck, even a Anti-Hero would have issues classifying.
Magnificent Bastard means Magnificent Bastard
Now, let's see the Tower of God entries
- Magnificent Bastard: Koon, you suave, sharp-witted, manipulative, scheming son of a tyrant. He managed to hide several allies in his bag and let them out later as to reduce the number of participants in the test without killing and to help his team win the Crown Game, managed to get Rak, who was out to kill him, on his team, tricked Quant into protecting Rachel and improved Baam's chances by making his team lose without endangering his or Anak's chances, made it so that Baam and Rachel could take the Guardian's Exam and manipulated the rest into helping them. On the other hand, he himself sometimes seems to see himself as a Smug Snake, admitting that there's something fundamentally missing from many of his plans — he has a tendency to lose sight of what he ultimately wants (or to fail to consider what he should ultimately want) while obsessively focusing on the immediate problem in front of him. Rak calls him out on this when pointing out that his plan to make his cousin (who he loved) into a princess was ultimately self-defeating.
Cut it, Koon is ruthless but he's too sympathetic, everyone close to him is almost as bad as him
edited 9th May '18 8:37:01 AM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
I've added Fisk's rewrite to the drafts and replaced the entry on his YMMV. Will provide EP and write-ups for a couple of the other comic book characters today. Now, in the CM Clean Up we often split up comic book characters by incarnation—there are separate entries for Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis, and Post-Flashpoint Mongul for instance, but I don't actually think that's necessary here, because while I can think of lots of villains whose evil has shifted, whether we are supposed to be impressed by their intellect and flair is usually more consistent. Luthor, to use an obvious example, has always been intended as an MB.
Kaz is on the drafts page, by the way, but does not need to be; I added him to YMMV Six of Crows and the lit page before we got the pages locked.
All those Animorphs examples should be cut, especially Visser Three. While a capable political climber and battlefield tactician in the backstory, he's got no aptitude for espionage or grand strategy and crashed and burned once he was put in that position. David and Tom have both been cut for being Smug Snakes in the past; I know because I'm the one who cut them. Sadly David in particular has a lot of very pushy fans who both Leather Pants him and play up what a genius they think he is.
Generally, I don't think we can have character who were an MB but are not now, unless something actually happened to them to rob them of their ability to do so. To return to the Visser Three example, he was simply promoted past his competence and a genuine Magnificent Bastard shouldn't be able to be promoted past his competency (I'm sure there's an exception somewhere, but as a general rule that holds). Now, if we had a character who is say, an old man/woman with Alzheimer's and we were to discover that when they were much younger and not yet ill they qualified...that we could have a discussion about.
edited 9th May '18 8:52:22 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I think that about Kandori from Persona, who I just proposed, he was toyed for Nyarlatotep in P2 but Nyarly is the God of Evil and Kandori is a human, a human who was just revived because Nyarly' powers.
Albeit he still continues to be quite skillful in that game too, being one of the most successful villains despite his lack of motivation.
Opinions on him?
Even the Mad Scientist Luthor?
edited 9th May '18 8:58:39 AM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Even in the Silver Age we were supposed to be impressed by Luthor's intelligence. The restrictions of the day ensured it didn't always come off but the intent was clear.
As a case in point, there's a Silver Age Legion of Super-Heroes story where the LSH has been outlawed and they are on the run. They take shelter in one of Luthor's old lairs, which isn't on any maps, but contains technology that puts their own, 30th century tech, to shame.
Silver Age Luthor might always lose and go to prison but he was never in prison for any longer than he wanted to be. And on those occasions when he was sent up against other villains, and thus allowed to score victories, he was easily DC's most competent bad guy.
Goku Black
Oh yeah Visser three is Stupid Evil defined, he constantly screws up over the course of the 40 books because he just cant think ahead. Im surprised people would think Tom and David are MB's,I thought it was made clear that both were way over there head.
Alright moving on. Artemis Fowl has this
- Magnificent Bastard: Artemis and Opal have their moments. When they're not Smug Snakes, they're this.
Yeah uh No. I like both Artemis and Opal and think both are great characters but they are not thisas both are Smug Snake 's defined. In Opal's case she's a CM for a reason being uber unhinged and way to full of herself. Artemis is certainly a genius but his snarking is usually outdone by most of the other characters, he is physically weak and most of his plans fail due to him either having a crisis of conscience or due to his own overconfidence and incompetance.
edited 9th May '18 9:14:54 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
RIP Toriyama
Think I'll say 'Yes' to Kandari for now.
Having talked it over with Kaz, yes, I'll be handling both Canon and Legends Thrawn, both of which will come at some point.
In the meantime, I have another franchise that I think needs a bit of purging....
- Magnificent Bastard:
- Makuta; especially after the end of the Matoran saga. The below quote actually does him justice on this matter.
Teridax: We both know there are a thousand ways I could destroy you right now. And 941 of them hurt."- The Shadowed One, though not to the extent of Makuta.
- Roodaka gives them both a run for their money! A pity she ended up overextending herself and being subjected to Villain Decay.
- Tuma is an impressive example given that his personality in The Legend Reborn isn't that new and he's as subject to the same short-sightedness as the rest of his race. He generally avoids it by knowing that he has to be better than them to ensure the survival of the Skrall.
Now, Tuma, the Shadowed One, and Roodaka are a easy non-Keeps. Tuma is utterly inconsequential, the Shadowed One really only has a handful of semi-intelligent schemes, and, as her very entry says, Roodaka falls HARD as the story goes on as we see that she has utterly overextended herself and overestimated her own cunning. She's a CLASSIC Smug Snake who only gets by as long as she does because everyone around her is so easily manipulated. The second she meets genuine competition and gets busted, she goes down HARD.
Now....Teridax. Teridax is a GENIUS, and plays Xanatos Speed Chess like it's a children's checkers game. Yes, some might argue it's because he's a Villain Sue (I wouldn't agree with this, but that's a different argument), but the fact is that Teridax is a charming, manipulative, brilliant mastermind who becomes GOD solely because of his own intelligence and cunning. He WINS, for all intents and purposes, and stays that way for quite a while before he is finally killed, literally, because of dumb luck. He shatters a planet during a fight, and then, as the pieces rain down on the battlefield, he gets shoved into the path of one and murdered in a split second decision by his opponent. If not for that INSANELY coincidental aspect, Teridax would have won with flying colors.
The....issue is that Teridax is ALSO one of the most vile, depraved villains one can find in media in my honest opinion. He has millions of deaths on his hands, mass torture and subjecting of countless people to fates worse than death, corrupting and tormenting heroic figures into becoming his slaves, and is an all-around psychopathic PRICK. The ONLY positive qualities about him are his intelligence and cunning, and willingness to participate in Pragmatic Villainy to get what he wants.
Beyond this, Teridax is an insane madman who, though keeping up the Faux Affably Evil nature upon becoming a god, still has a MASSIVE god complex (earned, but still), and exhibits sadism and genocidal ambitions galore.
Teridax...COULD count, but it's very a Palpatine situation where, though both hit EVERY mark, their own sadism and egos might prevent them from quite nailing that magnificent part.
Ambar, you're a viewer of the franchise, I believe. What are your thoughts?
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
Since yor here, can I bring the Jojos Bizzare Adventure examples and get yor thoughts on them, since your a fan and more fmailar with the work.
I only know Bionicle from the early comics, when Teridax was referred to as Makuta and was very much Orcus on His Throne. So I can't offer an informed opinion there.
What I will say is this—when in doubt, cut. It's a rule that served us well in the early days of the CM Thread, and that I think will serve us well here. If your gut reaction is "he hits the criteria, but..." go with it.
In this case, guy's a sadist, a megalomaniac and a madman, and while you might not concur with them, there's a part of the fanbase that sees him as an obnoxious Villain Sue. That strikes me as enough cause to lean towards cutting.
edited 9th May '18 9:58:13 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
RIP Toriyama
@miraculous: Go ahead with the JoJo baddies, I was actually planning on going through them at some point, but it'll be easier to just go ahead and do them now, so bring 'em up and I'll I've my thoughts on them.
@Ambar: Yeah, those were my thoughts. Teridax is a bit too much on the Bastard side for me to really view him as a MB. I'll wait and see what others think, but he can likely be cut with the others.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
So here's whats there:
- Magnificent Bastard
- Dio in Parts 1 and 3, Kars in Part 2, and Funny Valentine in Part 7. And for a rare benevolent example, Joseph Joestar in Part 2.
- Once he gains Bites The Dust, it's almost beautiful how well Kira defeats the heroes time and time again before Hayato finally puts a stop to it.
Speaking of Villain Sue...this was on the Yu Gi Oh YMMV page.
- Magnificent Bastard: Dartz from the Doma arc, whose plot is 10,000 years of a Gambit Roulette.
Pegasus and The Spirit of the Millennium Ring were also listed and we'll have to discuss those, but I removed this on the basis of it being zero context. I also removed it because Dartz is the poster boy for Villain Sue. If anyone needs an elaboration on that, my rant on it from a couple years back.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I dont know anything about YGO, but Pegasus seems like a worthy candidate.
Goku Black
I'd actuallly be cool with keeping Pegasus personally.
If someone wants to EP Pegasus go for it. Otherwise I'll do it when I'm done with the comics. I assume no one has objections to my removal of Dartz from YMMV?
Speaking of which has anyone cut/requested cuts for Batman, Black Panther, and the other heroic comic characters who were listed? We should really try to get those sorted out if not.
edited 9th May '18 10:23:54 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Goku Black
I'll go request the cuts in the locked pages thread.
RIP Toriyama
Yeah, no, neither DIO nor Kira make it. DIO is a smug asshat with about as much charm as a rattlesnake curled next to you at night. Sure, he's SORTA presented as charming in-universe, but IRL he's just an egotistical douchenozzle. Kira's also way too....I dunno, "average" I guess is the word. The best thing about his character is that he's NOT some Chessmaster genius or manipulator, he's just a normal dude who happens to get a Stand and become a Serial Killer. Bites the Dust isn't ANYTHING towards his own intelligence, it's literally a "superpower" he's given because of his willpower that works by itself to assist him. So yeah, neither of those.
The only character, I think, in JoJo who could possibly count as a MB is Part 7's Big Bad, Funny Valentine, but even he almost assuredly doesn't make it due to the fact that he tries to a rape a 14 year old girl and is petty little sadist when he wants to be. For instance murdering one of his own men while cracking a joke, or swearing to spare a man's life....then just torturing him a hellton because he gets annoyed.
JoJo is such an over-the-top, ridiculous franchise that, though those same qualities make it AMAZING and my favorite franchise of all time, also makes the chances of villain counting as MB highly unlikely because of how over-exaggerated and emotional they all are.
Cut Batman, Black Panther, and pretty much all other comic book MB villains. If any more seem to count or people want them to, effortposts can be made in the future, IMO.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
There actually more examples I ddint bring up as I was doing this in batcjes of 8 entries a piece, so we dont get overwhelmed, so there are still a few. So ill request cuts at the moment to batman, black panther and cyclops for now.
Just to know my opinion about it.
Also, we can discuss Thrawn from Star Wars? He is obviously well liked and while I'm somewhat familiar with his Star Wars Rebels incarnation, I'm not much with it's Legends version, albeit he seems to be even more competent there (it honestly sounds too much as a Villain Sue, YMMV).
Oh for the Force, the Star Wars Rebels entry is awful.
- Magnificent Bastard:
- The Grand Inquisitor with his trap in "Rise of the Old Masters." It would have succeeded if his Mooks weren't completely ineffective.
- Lando Calrissian in "Idiot's Array." At the end of the day, he's got a puffer pig, a crime lord scared off for a while, the Empire none the wiser, and since he knew that Chopper was eventually going to steal from him, all he needed to pay for it was a canister of fuel. And he does it all in a smooth, nonchalant fashion while needling Kanan and Ezra just because.
- Grand Moff Tarkin, who in the span of only his first appearance in the show wipes out the incompetence among Lothal's Imperial forces, hurts the rebel group more than any other adversary they had been confronted with thus far, and takes one of their leaders captive to torture and nearly kill. While he would eventually devolve into a Smug Snake in A New Hope due to an increase in power, here, he's clearly in his prime as a strategic villain.
- Darth Vader:
In the space of two episodes, he sends the Ghost crew on the run and basically shatters all Rebel resistance on Lothal, two things that the previous antagonists couldn't achieve in an entire season. His badass credentials are being a vastly superior lightsaber duelist and Force user, but he also shows that he's a Chessmaster par excellence as he achieved this goal through orchestrating an elaborate and sophisticated plan to lure the crew to Lothal so he can put a tracker on their ship while allowing them to only narrowly escape so that they thought they did it on their own, meaning when they regrouped with the fleet he was able to track them to the rest of the rebellion.- He then takes on the fledging Rebel fleet in his TIE fighter by himself, and WINS, forcing them to go on the run, while on the bastard side, he orders a refugee camp burnt to the ground in order to break any further resistance on the planet. The heroes are utterly terrified of him (as are some of the villains) and he's easily and by a wide margin the most competent character — Imperial or Rebel — seen on the show thus far.
Darth Maul immediately becomes this in his return:- He singlehandedly manages to gruesomely slaughter the Seventh Sister and the Fifth Brother in a fight, plays Ahsoka and Kanan for fools, permanently blinds Kanan, tempts Ezra to the dark side, and easily gets away scot free with disrupting Darth Vader's plans (stealing an Inquisitor's custom fighter in the process).
While he didn't succeed in obtaining the superweapon for himself, he was the only one to come out of the events on Malachor better off for the experience. In subsequent episodes, he consistently manages to manipulate the crew to his advantage and obtain what he wants with little trouble, even though they now know how dangerous he is.- Grand Admiral Thrawn: (In all bolds)
- While he's been slow to make a move to crush the rebellion, he's managed to stay a step ahead of them and takes any escapes of them as minor setbacks and with good reason.
- He also figured out that Kallus is Fulcrum and is now using this to feed the Rebels false information.
As of "Zero Hour", his plans come together with the destruction of Chopper Base and the elimination of Phoenix Squadron, and only some incompetence by his allies and ultimately the intervention of an Eldritch Abomination deus ex machina prevent his total victory. New universe, still a bona fide Magnificent Bastard.Holy....Uh...
Let's cut everyone except Thrawn. And let's write a decent write up for him.
Lando is too unambiguously heroic. Tarkin is too hateable, the First Inquisitor is a Badass but dunno if he qualify.
Vader and Maul as Magnificent Bastard...it seem that someone keep mistaking Magnificent Bastard with Love to Hate villain. I understand that mistake personally but Maul is pretty far from this trope.
edited 9th May '18 6:28:38 AM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country