During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Augustus
Yes to Augustus and Morris.
Mkay, Borderlands 3 time. Imma keep it short - haven't finished the game yet, but everything I've played and all the research I've done is telling me that nobody counts. The only proper, competent schemers are the Calypso Twins, and they've got basically everything against them (sadistic, petty, some of their success can be attributed to the heroes being idiots, etc.), and that's before accounting for my personal distaste for their attempts at comedy. Zarpedon is still dead and has been mercifully spared this game's writing, so she gets to stay. I should also mention that Borderlands 2 got a last-second DLC update before 3 came out featuring a new baddie (Colonel Hector) who does come pretty close to counting, but the fact that he spends much of his time ringing you up just to gloat about how much you suck means that's right out.
I'll call dibs on 3's DLC (3LC?), but I'm not gonna get my hopes up for candidates - this game's writing can drive a man to drink.
I'll make a case for DSOD Kaiba then! Here we go!
What's the work?
Yu Gi Oh The Darkside Of Dimensions is a Yu-Gi-Oh film released in 2016. Set six months after the end of the manga, the story revolves around Seto Kaiba and his attempts to resurrect the Pharaoh, who shared Yugi Muto's body until his departure to the afterlife. He and Yugi are menaced by Aigami/Diva, who works to prevent the Pharaoh's return at any cost. The movie also had a manga prequel, Transcend Game.
What does Kaiba do?
Kaiba is determined to resurrect the Pharaoh by any means necessary, and to fulfill this ambition he developed a space station and space elevator, a way to track citizens via their Duel Disks and brainwaves, and a complex VR dueling system to analyze brainwaves in duelists in the cloud. After winning a duel against a simulation of the Pharaoh, Kaiba is dissatisfied and looks to duel the real thing. He excavates the Millennium Puzzle, but is stopped by Aigami, who attempts to disintegrate him immediately with the Quantum Cube. Kaiba's technology and willpower repels the attack and they duel instead, and when it looks like Aigami is about to win, Kaiba draws Obelisk the Tormentor and attacks his monsters. The duel ends without a result as Aigami escapes with two of the puzzle pieces, but Kaiba isn't worried and sees him as a Plot-Irrelevant Villain, telling him they'll finish their conflict later.
Kaiba realizes the puzzle pieces are missing when his computer reassembles the Puzzle in space, doing something in 5 hours that took Yugi 8 years. He then sends commandos to successfully kidnap Aigami—who, remember, can teleport and disintegrate people—and he and Mokuba reveal that they know Yugi has one of the pieces, and Aigami has the other. Kaiba intends to duel Aigami and Yugi at an exhibition for the pieces, and when Yugi demands to face Aigami first he agrees. Yugi wins, and when Kaiba duels him, he complete the Puzzle mid-duel to show nothing would happen. This is the only time in the entire movie where Kaiba loses composure, as Yugi gives him a speech telling him to move on and accept the Pharaoh's gone. Kaiba refuses to, and by the time his duel with Yugi ends his only reaction to apparently losing is a Graceful Loser smirk (the duel gets interrupted right at the end).
When Aigami is corrupted by the Ring and turns into a monster, Kaiba and Yugi tag-team duel him, and Kaiba sacrifices himself to keep Yugi in the game and implores him to call the Pharaoh. The Pharaoh returns to defeat Aigami, and Kaiba and everyone else are restored, but he also takes the Puzzle with him to the afterlife, seemingly settling the matter of coming back or not.
So Kaiba decides that if he can't get the Pharaoh to come back, he'll go to the afterlife instead. Using a combination of the Quantum Cube and his own technology, Kaiba breaches through to the afterlife and stands before the Pharaoh, ready to duel, as the movie ends. Note the Pharaoh is completely unsurprised by his intrusion.
Is he charming? Can he think on his feet?
This movie is really kind to Kaiba in a lot of ways—he's got a six-pack, amazing duels and monsters, and is full of snark and quotable lines, especially in the dub. He's also good at planning and improvising. When he learns Aigami stole the pieces he immediately captures him, and when faced by a reality-destroying monster he's unworried and knows the Pharaoh can save things despite the cost to himself. He also has a backup plan when the Puzzle is taken to the afterlife, and in general nothing and no one can stop his ambitions, not even the barriers of reality.
A bastard? Too much?
Kaiba is essentially the protagonist of the movie; from Aigami's POV he's meddling with forces that will lose the Plana their powers, and from Yugi's POV he's bent on bringing back a dead friend cause he just can't let it go. He does act dismissive of Yugi and his friends but that's pretty standard for Kaiba, and by the end of things he respects Yugi as a duelist in his own right, though he still really wants to duel the Pharaoh.
Competition?
Aigami was declared an MB by this thread a bit ago, but on watching the movie I found him kinda overshadowed in comparison to Kaiba's Awesome Ego. Aigami is a proactive force and tries several plans to stop the Pharaoh's resurrection while Yugi generally reacts to things happening, but Kaiba is never seriously concerned about Aigami, his plans, or his powers and treats him as an annoying pest, and is even less concerned about Yugi up until midway through their duel. All of Kaiba's plans either succeed or are adjusted until he can succeed.
Conclusion?
It's up to you guys, but I'm leaning towards keep.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Sep 26th 2019 at 5:53:01 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
to Kaiba
to Kaiba
"The Juice is Loose."
A total has-been.
Surprising for Kaiba in that film. I guess in a few years' time following the Battle City tournament, he straightened himself out enough to finally fulfill his Magnificent Bastard potential.
Forbidden Memories Seto and Duelists of the Roses Seto are so proud of him XD
Edited by lalalei2001 on Sep 26th 2019 at 7:37:18 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
The Draftsman of Doom
Kaiba. I still don't think he counts in the anime based on petty his trope entries make him sound.
Big to Seto Kaiba
Just one question: can a character be this and a Complete Monster at the same time?
Edited by WretchedDog2 on Sep 27th 2019 at 2:26:23 AM
It's possible but relatively rare. Dimentio from Super Paper Mario is both.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Sep 27th 2019 at 2:28:49 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Goku Black
kaiba
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Check out here several examples here to see what makes a few characters a CM/MB crossover.
Alright, so I got one:
What's the work?
The Secret Histories is an urban fantasy series by Simon R. Green, centered around the Drood family. The Droods are the guardians of humanity, golden-armored warriors and sorcerers...and Good Is Not Nice. They've got tons of traditions, they're manipulative and occasionally vicious as well. Edwin "Eddie" Drood left the family a while ago, but he's pulled back for a series of adventures in 12 books, facing tons of supernatural threats...in some of the final books, we get one of the greatest of them all. The hidden shame of the Droods: Gerard.
Or Grendel Rex.
Who is Gerard Drood?
Grendel Rex, once one of the greatest Droods? Lost his beloved wife Elspeth and fell victim to despair and belief the world was worth nothing. After he carved his face into the moon, the family noticed something was wrong and they, all together, barely managed to defeat Gerard and imprison him beneath the snows of Siberia.
Except not. Gerard planned on this, knowing he'd have a hard time facing all of them. So he let them defeat him, kicked back and waited comfortably, waiting centuries until the family had forgotten how dangerous he truly was, waiting until they got complacent...he proceeded to subtly manipulate events for the villains to cause distractions while he secretly assisted the evil alternate universe counterpart of Eddie, Edmund...Edmund freed Gerard as muscle to enact his own evil plans, exactly as Gerard had planned. Playing the part of his enforcer, Gerard plotted to basically remake the world in his image, implantin himself onto humanity as a whole while Edmund thought he'd just rule everything.
Turns out by the end of the book, we see how impressively Gerard has turned the situation to his advantage. he manipulates th whole fight with Edmund and Eddie, resulting in Edmund's death, and now? there's nothing to stop Gerard from taking over, as he demonstrates a genuinely affable personality. At the same time, however, also freed by the same actions? Morgana Le Fay, the Fay Queen, who is likewise gearing up for vengeance on humanity. She and Gerard lock eyes....and fall in love at first sight, deciding to forego petty revenge and world conquest to find something and create something new, explore the cosmos together and find joy in life as a couple.
Before leaving? Gerard imparts Eddie with one piece of knowledge: All those years ago? It wasn't his own face he carved on the moon. It was Elspeth's.
How's he operate? Charming? A manipulator?
Un. Matched. Look, Gerard's the guy who realized "I'll have a hard time fighting all the strongest sorcerers in the world. I'll just let them beat me, kick back and let time do its thing, with nobody the wiser." And it worked. Literally the only reason Gerard is stopped by the end is because he foregoes his plan to find a better life with Moragana...he plays Edmund (a capable manipulator himself) like a finely tuned violin, and nobody in the series can even touch him.
And compared to Green's relentlessly evil villains of which there are a lot, Gerard is pleasant, charming, and even friendly. Nothing personal if you're in his way, you're just going to have to die.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
I mean, he was planning on remaking the world in his image, rewriting humanity, etc, so he wouldn't have to be alone anymore, but Gerard is given a good measuring of sympaty by the narrative as opposed to Edmund and many other monsters Green writes. Gerard dearly loved his wife and falls for Morgana as well, so we have a potentially horrible crime for a somewhat sympathetic reason, mitigating qualities and an affably evil personality.
Conclusion?
A terrific keep. Something kind of heartwarmingly evil about carving your dead wife's image into the moon so she's never forgotten, too.
Goku Black
Grendal Rex the unforgiven God
I mean the dude who literally raised himself to Godhood. You can't get more cooler then that.
Edited by miraculous on Sep 27th 2019 at 9:13:16 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"The Juice is Loose."
Well, I just found this on YMMV.Death Battle:
- Magnificent Bastard: The Joker, as per usual, manages to win his fight not with brute force, but by manipulating Needles into his hands and stealing his kill.
Does he really do enough in the battle to qualify?
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Sep 27th 2019 at 11:32:53 AM
"The Juice is Loose."
No he doesn't. I'm a huge fan of Death Battle. No from that counts do to the very nature as one long fight with no story.
Edited by Bullman on Sep 27th 2019 at 4:25:29 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Draftsman of Doom
