During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Sure for Ava/Lucifer.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
So, for another work set in the URSS...
Setting: Superman: Red Son
A Superman elseworld about a world where Kal-L landed on Soviet Ukraine. One of the most famous due to its exploration of Utopia Justifies the Means exemplified for Superman himself and our candidate in question, Lex Luthor.
Who is Alexander "Lex" Luthor?
A inhuman genius in USA for S.T.A.R labs, Luthor ends up becoming Superman's Arch-Enemy anyway. Motivated for a desire to beat the alien as a challenge and for his own humanistic ideology (read humanistic as Humans-are-awesome and not "nice stuff"), Luthor works for USA and ends up creating many threats to the future soviet leader.
In his first attempt, Luthor causes the Sputnik 2 to plummet towards Metropolis, hoping that the ever-altruist Superman arrives in time to stop it and then Luthor could retrieve Superman's genetic material to create a clone of Superman which is obviously Bizarro but never called as such, which Luthor unleashes to battle Superman in a fight that stops when Bizarro does a Heroic Sacrifice to stop a accidentally launched nuclear warhead.
Horrified after realizing that Superman might be smarter than him as he was defeated for the clone in a chess game, Luthor murders his own staff and, dedicates his life to destroying Superman at the cost of worsening his marriage with Lois Lane.
By 1978, Luthor had aligned with Brainiac in trying another attempt to defeat Superman by shrinking Moscow. Unfortunately, Brainiac shrunk Stalingrad instead. Luthor later provided aid to the russian Batman, providing him red-sun solar rays in order to test Superman's weakness.
When the United States fell into dire unrest at their realization that they're losing the Cold War to Superman's benevolent dictatorship, President John F. Kennedy summoned Luthor to a decommissioned Area 51 where he was given a Green Lantern ring and a battery that came from the crashed spaceship of a Green Lantern alien, which Luthor used to create MARINE GREEN LANTERS (sorry, is so stupid yet so cool at once).
By 2001 Lex wins the American presidency and reforms the decadent Murica into prosperity, becoming loved for everyone in the country. However, Luthor, being Luthor, is doing this as part of another of his plots agains Superman.
Later, Luthor confrons Superman in the stating that he came to fight him on his own terms with minds. Superman's reprogrammed Brainiac subdued Luthor and claiming that he would convince Superman to commit suicide in less than fourteen minutes.
This, alongside with attacks from Luthor's MARINE GREEN LANTERS and the Amazonians forces Superman to invade the United States, where Superman reads Luthor's "last weapon" in the form of a written letter for his wife Lois to give it to Superman, reading the iconic: "Why don't you just put the whole WORLD in a BOTTLE, Superman?"
Superman's ideology breaks down and Luthor manages to kill Brainiac, which causes the alien to set its self destruction that forces Superman to perform a Heroic Sacrifice and leaving Luthor as the last supermen. Luthor has won, something that even Superman himself admits.
With Superman's apparent death, Lex integrates many of Superman's ideas in his own system and formes a "Global United States", leading to a unprecedented age of peace and stability.
A benevolent world government was formed and maintained, and Luthor presided over a string of scientific achievements. After his death, his descendants followed in Lex's progressive footsteps, achieving great scientific discoveries and contributions for mankind until time just destroyed all of it, with Luthor's descendant, Jor-L trying desesperately to send his son to a safer place...
Charisma?
Is Luthor. He's a egomaniac but...he's cool because he's one. He always keep a style even when he's killing or endangering many lives. Plus, even his weaknesses make him more humane and weirdly sympathetic rather than pathetic.
Say whatever you want of him. But you can't deny that he had style.
Smart?
Again. Luthor. He manages to create a utopia, breaks Superman will and to compete with him many times.
Bastard?
He almost destroyed his own city in a attempt to trick Superman. We can say more?
Luthor is the defintion of Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist but the deal is...his utopia works. He's a selfish, selfish men...that did a lot of good at the long term.
Verdict?
I say Yes
Edited by KazuyaProta on Apr 17th 2019 at 1:38:47 PM
Watch me destroying my country
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Extremely Easy ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Luthor.
Also to Ava.
Edited by Kylotrope on Apr 17th 2019 at 11:52:05 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Goku Black
lothor
to Lex Luthor.
Yes to Ava and Luthy.
Edited by DocSharp on Apr 17th 2019 at 12:28:48 PM
"The Juice is Loose."
to Ava and Lex Luthor (no brainer for that last part)
The Draftsman of Doom
Easy yeah. Also, to my understanding it was divvied such that Kaz would take the EP, Lighty the entry so if anyone's curious that's why I'm marking the latter down to do the writeup in pending.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 17th 2019 at 3:55:12 PM
Lex Luthor.
Lex Luthor who made the world a better place to show he was better than Superman.
Red Son's great. Superman is just as noble but with Soviet rather than American values.
I really do think Hate Sink should be YMMV. Trying to say that the author intended someone to be hated and ONLY hated is often tricky. Hell, I think almost all our tropes are YMMV, but I'm getting weirdly philosophical now.
to Ava and Lex Luthor.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
In a perfect world, Hate Sink would only need the Word of God along with a showcase of why this character is an awful person that people should hate. That's best case scenario since it's difficult to know otherwise if a character is meant to be good or meant to be awful. If Hate Sink was YMMV, there'll be nothing to distinguish it from Complete Monster or The Scrappy.
Funny thing about Grimmel. It was his bare-bone Hate Sink entry on his character page that led me to eventually write an EP for him on this thread:
- Hate Sink: Just the trailers alone will make you feel nothing but hatred towards this character.
A preview speculation based the trailers, with no context as to how awful he was in the actual film. So when I finally watched the film, I paid close attention to Grimmel's personality and actions to see if there was anything that screams this is a man you want to punch. However, to my surprise, I find myself being impressed by his intelligence and deduction. The actual film itself emphasize that Grimmel is the smartest dragon hunter and that he should never be underestimated. It does showcase Grimmel to be a cruel man, but never to the extent that it overshadows his other characteristics.
In any case, I would say that the quote regarding Grimmel being a Hate Sink was based on the trailers and previews. And as we all know, Never Trust a Trailer.
Edited by Shadao on Apr 17th 2019 at 3:24:29 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Having recently seen the film, I personally found Grimmel to be a Surprisingly very Entertaining and Cool villain. To the point I'd like to Reaffirm my yes to him.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Hate Sink is never gonna be YMMV, but damn does it feel like that's how people use it.
Shadao is right, however: It needs to be extremely obviously intentional. We have Love to Hate for a reason and that's where a lot of this stuff needs to go.
Alright so I’ve been thinking about this candidate for a while and I think now is a good time to EP her from the Assassin's Creed series.
What’s The Work?
The Assassins Creed series a franchise that started off as a series of video games before expanding to other media. The basic premise revolves war lasting throughout the history of man kind between the Templars who want to control all of mankind and the Assassins who wants freedom for mankind. However there’s a third factor that has been orchestrating this conflict and her name is Juno.
Who Is She? What Has She Done?
Juno is part of an ancient and highly-advanced species of humanoid beings called the Isu, a scientist of the Illuminati caste, a member of the Capitoline Triad alongside Jupiter and Minerva, and is more or less the Overarching Villain of the whole series.
During the Human-Isu War, Juno was suggesting to her father Saturn that the humans should be exterminate due to their violent behaviors. Minerva countered Juno’s arguments saying that humans are continuing to evolve and Saturn agreed with Minerva point of view. Then a group of humans came and killed Saturn which led to Juno to kill those human and vow to make the human race pay.
When the Capitoline Triad learn of a solar flare that could end the would, they tried to come up with various solutions to prevent such an event from occurring, including transferring the Isu's consciousnesses into more resistant synthetic bodies to survive the impending destruction and rebuild, Juno's husband, Aita, volunteering to be a test subject but he became catatonic and Juno had to euthanize him.
Eventually Juno would make plans to take over the world and prevent humanity from inheriting it leading to Minerva and Jupiter to imprison Juno’s conscious in the Grand Temple. By that time Minerva created the Global aurora borealis device which could protect the planet from the flare. However Juno tampered with the device so that once it was activated Juno would be free. Deciding that the world’s destruction is better that Juno’s release, Minerva decided not to active her device, allow the solar flare to destroy the world killing nearly all of the Isu and humanity, while keeping Juno imprisoned for a very long time.
However Juno spent her time in prison orchestrating the numerous events throughout a millennia of history to release herself from prison. She would have manipulated the human genetic code with her husband’s DNA creating the Sages which led to them looking like Aita and have Aita's memories. Juno would have these Sages form a Cult called the Instruments of the First Will, having them infiltrate the Templars and Assassins, orchestrating the conflicts between them so they wouldn’t be none the wiser as the Instruments would freeing Juno and have rule all of humanity.
Juno didn’t stop there as she would also directly manipulate the Templar Assassin conflict herself, to where she would use a Crystal Ball to communicate with Ratonhnhaké:ton (Connor) in the 18th century convincing him to join the Assassins, retrieve the amulet from Haytham Kenway, and prevent his band of Templars from gaining access to the Grand Templar. After Connor does all that, as well as kill Haytham and rid the Templars form the colonies, Juno would then have him bury it so that Desmond centuries later could find to use it to free Juno.
Come to the Modern Age Juno would manipulate undercover Assassin Clay Kazmeric to spread her message to Desmond first by exposing Lucy Stillman allegiance to the Abstergo (Templars) and having him commit suicide, while using his blood to write Juno’s message to Desmond.Juno would also influence Desmond himself by using the Apple of Eden to expose Lucy’s true allegiance to the Templars before manipulating him into killing Lucy.
By the time Desmond and his father and friends arrive at the Grand Temple to activate the device to save the world from a second solar flare, Minerva arrives and tells Desmond of Juno’s true motives. However Juno finds a way to turn the tables against Minerva, by forcing her to reveal what would happen if Desmond didn’t save the world, before giving him the option to either let Juno rot in prison at the expense of the world getting destroy and history repeats itself again or save the world and in the process free her. He choses the latter resulting in his death and Juno’s release, but hey at least the world isn’t destroyed.
However Juno was with out any body wandering the Grey, eventually finding herself in Abstergo Entertainment where she made contact with John Standish, one of her sages, where they manipulate a research analyst into allow her to posses his body. However Juno realized that she was still weak to fully take control of the analyst’s body decided that rather than having to fight over his conscience for control of his body, to just let the analyst go before telling her instruments to make her whole once more, much to John’s frustrations.
Eventually Juno decided that instead of possessing someone else’s body, she would use Abstergo’s resources and her followers to create her own body. She would form an alliance with the Templars, explaining their shared goals of creating New World Order, such an alliance proved to be in their conjoined best interest. She would then use Abstergo’s Phoenix Project to create a body for herself having them retrieve the Shroud of Eden to create said body for her, while also recruiting Violet De Costa into the Instruments of the First and telling her that Juno will save her and all of humanity.
Juno would also have her Instruments to retrieve a Piece of Eden, Koh-i-Noor, and Elijah, a Sage and Desmond’s son, and recruit him into the Instruments, while extracting his DNA from his bone marrow to use along with the Shroud to create her body. Now fully resurrected Juno goes up to her followers and announcing her plans to “save” humanity and rule the world, using the Koh-i-Noor to find all the Pieces of Eden for that purposes before defending herself from the Assassins attacking her and defeat them. However Elijah decides to defect from the Instruments and help the Assassins kill Juno, thus finally managing to end Juno’s life and her manipulations and ambitions for good.
Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?
As an Isu scientist, Juno is definitely intelligent. Not only does she create many of the artifacts that has shaped the world’s conflict throughout millennia, she also uses said artifacts to orchestrates the many events throughout history that would lead to her eventual freedom 80,000 years later. She also cleaver enough to tamper with Minerva’s device so if it’s used to save the world she would be release, and tamper with the human genetic code to create the Sages that would spread her influence throughout history.
She’s also extremely charismatic using her Sages to create a cult entirely devoted to Juno, where she would have them influence the Templar and Assassin conflict spanning millennia. She also a very hands on master manipulator herself, manipulating Templars and Assassins into dancing to her tune, outsmarting Abstergo by exposing Lucy allegiance with them to Clay and Desmond.
Even when obstacles appear such as Minerva suddenly appearing before Desmond and reveal Juno’s true nature or when she realizes she’s too weak to posses the analysist, Juno simply manages to find ways to counterattack such as forcing Minerva to reveal the Bad Future to Desmond if he didn’t save the world and free Juno and formulating a plan to create a body for herself manipulating Abstergo into creating said body for her, all while rarely if ever losing her cool.
What’s the Competition Like?
Juno clears the competition by far manipulating and orchestrating events for a millennia. Even other Magnificent Bastards (Haytham and Germaine) become pawns to her schemes, as such when she manages to outplay Haytham Kenway by manipulating his son Connor, into becoming an Assassin and kill Haytham, and since Francoise Germaine is a Sage all of his actions would benefit Juno. Juno isn’t just a master manipulator she’s the master manipulator.
Is She a Bastard? Is She Too Much of a Bastard?
Okay, Juno plots to rule the world, enslave humanity, manipulates the Templar and Assassin conflict to last millennia, manipulates people into killing people, and convinces someone to commit suicide. Basically every bad event that has happen in the series up until her death in the comic book Juno is a result of Juno manipulations, so yeah she’s a bastard.
That said she never delves into any deplorable, petty, personal and sadistic acts that would take away from her magnificence and all her scheming is part of a grand and long term plan spanning millennia, and does show some respect to the people she’s manipulating, Desmond being a prominent example. She also has her reason for hating humanity as they did kill her father and she did have a husband that she loved and killed him to end his suffering. Eventually Juno looses her hatred for humanity and her plans to eradicate humanity changes to wanting to save humanity albeit by ruling over it.
Final Verdict
I’ll leave it to you guys
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 17th 2019 at 3:37:10 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to Juno.
Yeah to Juno.
Yes to Ava, Luthor, and Juno.
What a way to top a page.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Apr 17th 2019 at 9:13:27 AM