During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
imposter, Nicky and Eevee evie
Rose, Foreigner, Mike, Esme, Rumple, Pegg, Imposter, Nicky and Evie
Not sure if Kazuma is bastard enough
to Hawkeye, Roger Beckermmann, Mr. Bridger, Altabani, Charlie Croaker, Kyouya Ootori, Lester Crest, Vicious, Pagemaster, Ryan Grant, Jeff Talley, Robot Santa, Harold Hale, Darth Nihl, Mike Barson, Richard "Rose" Fisk, the Foreigner, Esmerelda Carmona, especially Rumplestilkin, the Imposter, Nicky Holiday and Evie.
Happy New Year everyone. I'll try to keep up with the thread a bit more this one.
Esme, Pegg, Rumple.
For the imposter how much of a personality does he have? Does he even talk to the fbi?
The most bastardly thing Kazuma seems to do is attempt to assassinate Gregson but then decides not to. That seems like a standard What You Are in the Dark thing, ultimately he feels like he can't cross that line. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Kazuma.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 1st 2022 at 12:14:13 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The Moron
He doesn't end up talking to the FBI, but we get shown his personality through flashbacks and through the evidence he leaves behind. Basically, he's a Consummate Professional - his rifle was purchased through entirely legal channels (including waiting for a background check), he's polite to the woman who delivers the subpoena before he realizes he needs to kill her, he's intelligent enough to arrive at the bank early so that the teller the FBI eventually talk to won't know he had been there, and he even tells his hostage that he should take some comfort in the fact that he won't be a nobody anymore once he's done (I'd call it arrogant, but again, he comes less than a second away from succeeding) while barely looking away from his sniper scope. He's also confrontational when he's found - both times the FBI finds him, he opens fire first - and is careful enough to avoid security cameras where he's going, even if he's not quite perfect with the hand thing.
It's nothing special, but it's there. Like I said, he doesn't pop out and he ain't winning "MB of the year", but I don't think there's anything outright keeping him down.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 1st 2022 at 12:18:33 PM
Alright I guess that's as technical a keeper as you're going to get. The Imposter.
Lies and Violence!
What j said, not really feeling Kazuma as enough of a bastard.
To kick off the new year, I dug up some of my old middle school fantasy books to look for some proposals. Five Kingdoms is about...
...Shit, I'm going to have to explain so much backstory. Okay, uh... this kid, Cole, and a bunch of his classmates are kidnapped and brought to the magical world of the Outskirts as slaves. The Outskirts is split into five "kingdoms" (technically it's just one kingdom split into five parts, but whatever), each with its own distinct branch of magic — or "shaping."
One of these kingdoms is infamous for a ginormous void called the Brink. Flanking this void are two "cloudwalls," which constantly generate and destroy floating castles filled with cool treasure and artificial lifeforms called semblances (which usually have the intelligence and agency of video game NPCs, although some can gain a degree of self-awareness). Cole is sold off to a group of Sky Raiders, who naturally want to raid the castles for the cool treasures before they're destroyed by the cloudwall; Cole's job as a scout is to make sure there are no giant semblance monsters that will kill the raiders once they land.
Make sense? You can keep track of the terminology? Well, too bad. The Brink stuff is only the setting for the first half of the first book. It's never relevant ever again. And I haven't even explained how the magic system works — a system which, by its design of being different for every kingdom, changes every book. I'll explain the best I can for later candidates, but if something doesn't make sense mechanics-wise, for my sanity's sake, please just go with it.
Anyway, the candidate:
Lyrus
A semblance created on one of these sky castles, Lyrus believes himself to be a soldier in charge of the sacred proving ground of Parona, where champions must — what else — test themselves by fighting a bunch of monsters. Cole is naturally a little hesitant to do this when he arrives, but begins poking holes in Lyrus' memories (i.e. pointing out that he can't recall any experiences older than a day, and, you know, is currently on a goddamn floating island).
Due to prior shenanigans, Cole has a cloak that, unbeknownst to him, can allow him to control other semblances if he puts it on them. Lyrus subconsciously recognizes its properties and convinces Cole to give it to him, subsequently becoming fully aware of his nature as a semblance. Seeking a chance at genuine glorious combat before he's inevitably destroyed, Lyrus proposes safe passage for the Raiders in exchange for him acting as Cole's champion in at least one of the trials. He additionally has Cole swear that he can remain "Protector of Parona" for what little time the island has left, promising that he will protect Cole and that the other semblances won't attack the Raiders for stealing their treasures.
Since semblances with the cloak on can't lie, this seems like a pretty good deal. Lyrus kills a lion and the Raiders start doing their thing. As usual, however, Exact Words are a real bitch. Lyrus, wanting a greater chance at glory than fighting one measly lion, summons the rest of the monsters; while they won't attack the raiders for stealing their stuff, they will attack because there's no such thing as time-out in goddamn trial by combat. Lyrus intends to uphold his vow to protect Cole, but he's also able to ignore his demands to stop summoning monsters since initialing trials is his job as Protector, and not allowing him to act accordingly would violate his earlier promise.
Lyrus kills a rhino and a snake while Cole and another character, Durny, take down a cyclops and a giant tarantula. The other Raiders are chased off, leaving Cole and another character, Mira, stranded on the island. Lyrus congratulates Cole for taking down the cyclops (they're not too mad at him, he's basically just a robot doing what he was programmed to do) and helps them assemble a floating coffin so they can escape. He bids the pair a pleasant farewell (he can't go with them; if he leaves the Brink he'll die) and goes off to await his death...
Only not. Moments before he's destroyed, the people living behind one of the cloudwalls — long story — notice the semblance and sense an unusual self-awareness to him, rescuing him and making him captain of the guard at their palace. He reunites with Cole, who has since gotten wrapped up in the series Myth Arc, and gives him some words of encouragement before he leaves on his quest.
Is he Magnificent?
Within seconds of gaining self-awareness he's able to formulate a plan that will allow him to both continue his duty of testing visitors to the island and get a chance at genuine glory. Throughout it all he remains consistently pleasant and always keeps his word, helping Cole with nary a complaint and giving him respect for defeating what he believed to be the most dangerous of the monsters.
Is he a Bastard?
He's incredibly nice about it and gives his condolences to those who perish, but he still unleashes a bunch of monsters he knows will definitely kill some of the Raiders (i.e. Durny, who is fatally poisoned when he takes out the spider).
Goku Black
Lyrus
Yes to Lyrus. So, wanna get this one as my first of New Year: Bullet to the Head is a story of a hitman betrayed by employers and going out to ensure he gets out safe...our hero. Jimmy Bobo.
Who is Jimmy Bobo?
A hitman with a heart, Jimmy is a veteran of the job and a ruthless but scrupulous man who opens the film performing an assassination on a crooked cop. A prostitute is in the apartment and Jimmy, uncomfortable with murdering an innocent, leaves her alive. The hitman Keegan murders his partner, but Jimmy is able to fend him off. Now, Policeman Taylor Kwon is investigating as the cop was his former partner who was blackmailing corrupt banker Morel
Kwon and Jimmy end up working together, Jimmy cleaning house to get to Morel. Jimmy kidnaps Morel's lawyer to get his info on Morel's plan to demolish housing and build high rise apartments. Jimmy shoots him in the head, lures Keegan's team of mercs into a trap and detonates the cabin they were in, though Keegan barely survives. Kwon tries to bring the info to his superiors, but the man is on Morel's payroll, which Jimmy deduced . Jimmy kills him and saves Kwon, but Keegan kidnaps Jimmy's estranged daughter Lisa. Jimmy, in possession of the incriminating evidence against Morel, gives Morel the flash drive in an exchange...
An enraged Keegan kills Morel and goes for Jimmy with a fire axe, but Jimmy pulls a knife and stabs Keegan in the throat. Before Keegan can retaliate, Kwon shoots him in the head. With the drive retriveed, Jimmy helps Kwon out so nobody will know he worked with a hitman. By shooting him in the shoulder.
Jimmy is later informed by Kwon that he and Lisa are an item and he tells Jimmy he's giving him some leeway...but if Jimmy continues his criminal activies, Kwon will bring him down. Jimmy just wishes him the best and heads out.
Mitigating issues?
Sylvester Stallone as a moral hitman. Jimmy is a planner, he's ruthless, he's effective. He sets up traps, he does hits, he thinks his way through things. The only time he's caught off guard is when Kwon literally tampers with his gun, meaning he can't execute the guy he means to...he does yeild a bit for Lisa at the end and tries to call it even with Morel and only Keegan's bloodthirst halts that.
I mean, yeha, Jimmy's a bastard: he's an assassin, but one who tries not to kill innocents. He's still a very dangerous man who executes unarmed criminals, he shoots Kwon to make it seem as if Jimmy attacked him...but he's absolutely far from the darkest guy in the film.
Conclusion?
Basic, easy.
Okay rereading the EP, I guess being part of an assassin exchange program is bad enough, but got lost in the details there. Switching Kazuma.
Lyrus and Bobo.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 1st 2022 at 1:50:48 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
Bobo
I think Stallone played a similar Noble Demon Asssasin vs Complete Monster Assain in Assassins. Would that guy be worth a look?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lies and Violence!
Bobo.
For Kazuma, does he know Tobias is trying to change? Otherwise it feels like he's just going after people he believes are Asshole Victims. The EP was a bit of a Wall of Text, I'm having difficulty keeping track of all the details.
I mainly decided to take a look at his character page. He's part of an assassin exchange program. I do think that is bad enough. Being complicit in something like that. The EP did bring it up, but it could've stood to have broken up the paragraphs more.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lies and Violence!
Still feels a bit iffy to me, count me as an abstain.
Also, an assassin exchange program? Ace Attorney is weird.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jan 1st 2022 at 11:14:01 AM
Goku Black
Why is it so long?
Isn't this just two games.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
@mir Yeah, I think Robert Rath could count maybe. I watched the movie back in the summer and considered doing him myself. Be the second for the late Richard Donner as a director as well.
Been meaning to see Bullet to the Head for forever. Also, my one concern about Rath is that he's too heroic, too tired of doing what he's doing. His first scene involves letting a hitman he's been contracted to "retire" kill himself instead.
With Bobo though, Sly's first everybody!
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 1st 2022 at 11:57:17 AM
Yes to Kazuma, Lyrus, and Bobo.
Goku Black
Also I think this quote was in the quote page way back when. I like it due to how audacious it is.
Could we add it back
Mr. Gold: Most things are.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Kazuma, Lyrus, and Bobo. I love the Gold quote.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
She/Her
to Kazuma, Lyrus, Bobo, and Evie
Oh, and happy new year
Profile picture by @GCastelini on Twitter. Give her a follow!
for Richard Fisk, the Foreigner, Mike, Esmerelda, Rumpelstiltskin, the Imposter, Pegg, Holiday, Evie, Kazuma, Lyrus, and Bobo.
Belated well wishes, Star.
Foreign Troper
Hello there, greetings from a former contributor. Just a very small observation from me 
I was reading through the MCU MB page, apparently with Stick's write-up, there was a little oopsie.
"Even captured and tortured by the Hand twice, 'Steel demonstrates Nerves of Steel and never breaks, even cutting off his hand to escape Alexandra."
Got his name wrong there in that one sentence ;)
Cheers!
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Fixed in the sandbox.
Yes to Lyrus and Bobo. I also promised a second candidate last night! I'm overdue, but here she is!
What's the setting?
Sushi Girl is a film I recently covered in the CM thread, with Tony Todd, Mark Hamill, etc. playing a villainous gang of robbers who reunite one day after a botched robbery forces them to split. The film is full of intrigue as the robbers try and interrogate each other over the whereabouts of a cache of diamonds, all over the body of a motionless woman over whose body sushi has been served. The true culprit behind whose took the diamonds, it turns out, is under the robbers' noses the whole time...
What has the Sushi Girl done?
An unnamed, Happily Married young woman who, by all accounts, lived a perfectly happy life before Duke and his gang of robbers barged into her life. The woman was involved in a car accident, after which her husband went to check up on the person he'd struck—Duke. Duke murders the Sushi Girl's husband with her in full witness.
Baaaaad move. The Sushi Girl, fueled by a lust for vengeance, embarks on a true From Nobody to Nightmare campaign, sneaking the diamonds away under Duke's nose and making off. Sushi Girl plots her revenge for six years, using her funds to secretly arrange Duke's reunion at the Japanese restaurant in the first place. She stages herself as the "sushi girl" to get close to Duke, allowing her to watch as the robbers inevitably turn on each other, torturing and picking each other off one by one with the real culprit right under their noses, watching.
Finally, only Duke is left, and he decides to celebrate by raping the Sushi Girl as a "consolation prize," having lost his diamonds. He engorges first on the fugu prepared on the Sushi Girl—another terrible move, since as the final capper to her revenge, the Sushi Girl paid off the chef to deliberately screw up the fugu. Duke is paralyzed, and the Sushi Girl finally gets up, explaining her revenge and how thoroughly she's screwed over Duke. Duke's only able to feebly beg before the Sushi Girl kills him and makes off with what's left of his money, accomplishing utterly everything.
Is she magnificent?
No goddamned question. The Sushi Girl spends six years setting up a revenge plot so elaborate that all she has to do by the end of it is sit motionless on a table for a few hours while the seeds of paranoia she's planted cause the entire criminal gang to turn on each other. Her plan goes off without a hitch in the end, and it's glorious to watch.
Is she a bitch?
Straddling the line here a bit since her victims are, y'know, robbers and murderers, but the Sushi Girl is still knowingly playing the robbers to torture and murder each other while she watches from the sidelines. They're not all total scum, either; one of the victims already performed a sort-of HFT and became a police informant, only to be swept up in the Sushi Girl's revenge anyway, and the dude who gets the worst of the torture was a rookie who didn't directly participate in any of the actual murder or torture in the initial robbery. I think she's good here—she's, at best, an utterly merciless Unscrupulous Hero whose only kept from being an out-and-out villain by the fact her victims do mostly have it coming.
Conclusion?
Keeper.
Any feedback?
Edited by magnumtropus on Jan 1st 2022 at 5:31:44 PM