During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Powell and cody
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Malefor
Well a crossover would depend on the heinous standard of each individual work. V.V Argost and Anarky are both worse than Hans Gruber yet still made the cut.
Edited by Snowy66 on Dec 18th 2021 at 3:55:49 AM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Nay to Malefor.
I have another Jojos Bizarre Adventure quote to propose :
- "You have pushed me to such desperate measures. As the leader of the assassination team, you may die with dignity. Your men in the afterlife will be proud of your accomplishments."Diavolo to Risotto Nero, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Vento Aureo
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Dec 18th 2021 at 2:24:02 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
No to Malefor.
Yes to Powell and Cody.
No to Malefor... what you really wanna look for are characters who operate brilliantly and charm you first. It should be on second glance that you note their crimes happen to be bad enough or just that they don't technically have any redeeming qualities. Otherwise they're pushing too far in atrocity and just coming across as bastards who happen to be reasonably smart, rather than actually "Magnificent".
Alrighty... Star lemme know if you can work your magic today. I'm just gonna beg for an exception later and here's what I owe:
- Death Warrant: Hawkins and Priest are two senior prisoners known for their connections. Becoming allies to undercover officer Louis Burke after his arrival, the two arrange for him to sneak into the crooked prison guards' file room to uncover the truth behind the recent string of deaths. In the climax of the film, the two also use their knowledge of the jail's layout to lead Burke to safety, even at the cost of Priest's life.
Woagh
to the baby-killing Omnicidal Maniac.
Hard Malefor.
Lies and Violence!
Cody, Malefor and the quote. Seems more like he's being mocked for his impending death.
I may have a crossover coming up in a few months (unless the web serial gets extended to another volume, which admittedly has happened twice already). It's a long work, however, so I'm definitely going to need to do a re-read once everything's said and done. If anyone wants to help with that labor, please pm me. In my personal opinion, this book is a masterpiece, and is going to be a goldmine for MBs once everyone's arcs wrap up.
Since I just finished with finals, I'm going to try and get to a guy I said I'd do a month or so ago. This one... this one's going to need a bit of explaining.
No to Malefor, but thanks for the EP! It is honestly good and you gave us all the info we needed to make a decision.
Lies and Violence!
Be Cool, Scooby-Doo! is a surprisingly decent Scooby-Doo show (ignoring the fact that it looks like a Seth MacFarlane cartoon), featuring a more comedic and surreal take on the classic gang. And no one embodies this surrealness more than one of the final two villains:
Professor Huh?
Okay, just bear with me on this.
Professor Huh? (the question mark is part of the name, just go with it) was a supervillain dedicated to committing really, really weird crimes — hot gluing multivitamins to the ceilings of military helicopter hangers, creating a literal wad of money using a giant ball of gum at a bank, etc. He only speaks through a sock puppet, speaks utter gibberish at that, and always leaves behind a calling card in the form of a llama eating a note.
Fred and one of his childhood friends, Rose, tried to investigate PH as they began their careers in mystery solving... only for Fred to one day discover PH's costume at home. His father was a supervillain.
Insert Doofenshmirtz "If I had a nickel" thing here.
Fred, of course, couldn't bring himself to turn his dad in. So Rose, kind and considerate person that she is, did it for him, becoming an international sensation overnight!
Rose went on to become a private investigator, but soon found herself losing business to a certain gang of idiots who were going around solving her cases for free. After a few attempts to discreetly kill them throughout the series, Rose decides to get personally involved by framing Fred for working with PH. She forged a few letters from Fred saying he was in trouble and sent them to PH, knowing he would break out of prison to help his son.
The gang goes to the prison to look for clues. But PH is surely long gone by now, right? Any sane person would have booked it the first chance they got.
When Scoob and Shaggy regroup with the others, Velma points out the sheer stupidity of an escaped convict hanging around a prison at a pretzel stand. Fred chalks this up to PH just being weird... only for PH himself to rise up from the back of the Mystery Machine and chase them out.
You know that thing where Scooby and Shaggy set up a barber shop or whatever, and the monster for some reason just goes along with it while the two make their escape? Well... it doesn't quite work as expected here:
...Yeah. ...I don't know what the appropriate response to that is.
The gang eventually realize that, in contrast to his usual irrational crimes, PH has actually been leaving behind clues for them to follow. Turns out, PH isn't an idiot; he pretty much immediately realized Rose's scheme upon receiving her letters. He's trying to lure them to a satellite that's about to launch, on which she's placed a doohickey that will allow her to monitor every criminal in the world.
The gang, unfortunately, haven't quite figured out that last part. They chase him throughout the launch site as PH sabotages the satellite.
The rest of the finale is mostly spent evading Rose and uncovering her conspiracy, but PH returns in the climax to save a piece of incriminating evidence from being thrown out a skyscraper. With Rose and her goons caught, PH offers to turn himself in... but Fred remotely locks him in the Mystery Machine, driving him away from the cops as thanks for his help.
Some time later, Fred (at his horrifically Mystery Machine-colored house) finds his van in the garage. With it is a llama eating a note — a note that reads "I love you, son."
Any Mitigating Factors?
As weird as he is, no. Dude's a criminal mastermind who's always ten steps ahead of everyone else. While the above clips don't exactly do a good job of establishing it, his relationship with Fred is filled with genuine pathos, and he ultimately loves him enough to try and turn himself in once he knows he's safe. To paraphrase Daphne, he's a good guy — in this particular situation — and is just being really confusing/harassing everyone on the side for fun.
Huh? is confusing as all hell, but there's no other monster appropriate enough to close off such a bizarre take on Mystery Inc.
I hate spoilers
I don't do this very often, but for Malefor. His actions feel too over the line, even when you consider the fact that some candidates have done some messed up stuff.
Goku Black
Professor.
You know this does remind me. Fred's OG evil father could probably keep here too
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Fred Jones Sr from mystery incorporated
Edited by miraculous on Dec 18th 2021 at 9:10:40 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Woagh
to the Professor.
Lizzid people!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
OG evil dad?
Professor.
From Mystery Incorporated? EDIT: Oh yeah him
Professor
Edited by Snowy66 on Dec 18th 2021 at 9:16:35 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the Professor.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
- Warcraft is good to be locked. IF you're ready for this week's batch, you can request that with everything else 43110.
- That Scooby Doo visual style is definitely not appealing to me but the Professor seems a keeper.
Yes to Huh.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Huh?
Yeah... in hindsight I should've expected Malefor's bastard qualities were too much. I'm surprised that there is a lack of Scooby Doo M Bs considering the whole premise of the show.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
So, my next...
What's the work?
The Seven Deadly Sins is a manga that 43 has proposed from before, centered in an Arthurian style fantasy world where the Seven Deadly Sins are a unit of knights and former criminals, with a takeover by the so-called Holy Knights. Princess Elizabeth Lyonesse finds the knight Meliodas to gather his old unit and save the kingdom...now, let's talk one of the Sins:
Merlin, the Boar's Sin Of Gluttony.
Who is Merlin?
A beautiful woman born long ago in the land of Belialuin 3000 years ago, a neutral land in the great conflict between Demons and Gods. A test subject for her village's experiments, Merlin fled her village and met the renegade demon prince Meliodas, who showed her a kindness she'd never known. The two formed a deep bond and Merlin fell in love with him, before Meliodas fell for a goddess named Elizabeth. Unable to hate Elizabeth, Merlin considered her a sister and tried to bury herself in magic to fill the hunger within herself. Her research led her to Chaos, a primordial being who predated all others and dedicated herself to restoring it.
Merlin was so famed and brilliant that knowledge of her spread, with the Demon King and the Supreme Goddess offering her boons. Merlin majipulated them....and got both blessings from them, immunity from either. Furious, the two annihilated Belialuin, Merlin's great Sin. Merlin crafted a great seal to contain the two, but to break the balance between light and dark, she needed to have one destroyed.
Reuniting ages after with Meliodas, Merlin helped to found the Seven Deadly Sins where she met the knight Escanor, who fell in love with her, and when the Holy Knights launched a coup, Merlin stole Meliodas's power and held it, before sending him off. She then met the young kngiht Arthur of Camelot and became his mentor.
Returning with Arthur to the kingdom during the battle with the Holy Knights, Merlin effortlessly disables the spells of her insane former apprentice Vivian and spends much of her remaining time being a deceptive mentor to the Sins and uring them as she needs, being well known for her manipulation...when the Ten Commandments are released, Merlin lures the demon Grayroad into a fight and captures Grayroad in a test tube, later helping to defeat and capture the demon Melascula. When Meliodas is disabled, Merlin sends the Fox Sin, Ban, to Purgatory to save him.
During the N Ew Holy War, Arthur is temporarily killed, and Merlin enters the battle, helping against the demons with her usual brilliance, helping to bring down the Demon King.
Just as she planned. Escanor dies in the fight, Merin admitting she could never love him...but as he burns to ash from his own power, Merlin kisses him to scar herself, as proof of his feelings. Arthur revives and Merlin reveals she intended to make him the true ruler of Chaos, Chaos within him... They destroy an abomination of Chaos to end the series, with Merlin having Arthur to shape and help, and having achieved her goals, before helping to destroy the Supreme Goddess in the movie.
How's she operate?
Merlin is...how do I put this...unrivaled. Merlin is brilliant, charming, pleasant, cool, all but unflappable...she does have moments of losing composure but recovers them and it's always understandable, like Arthur dying, or the reminders of her destroyed homeland. But more to the point, in addition to being an absolutely brilliant fighter, Merlin is the mastermind of the Seven, using and manipulating her own comrades constantly.
In addition, the whole series has been a running 3000 year gambit so Merlin can revive Chaos and destroy the Demon King. Nobody is aware of the depth to which she's used them till the end. Absolute pass.
Is she bad?
Yes. Merlin has brought about a lot of harm, got her home village destroyed, ruthlessly manipulated her friends and allies and gambled the fate of the world. She's easily bad enough.
she's also covered in good qualities. She does care for the Sins, loves Meliodas, considers Elizabeth her beloved sister, cares deeply for Arthur and when Escanor is dying, while she admits she never returned his feelings, she gives herself permanent scars with which to honor them and Escanor's life.
She's also just...very pleasant and fun to talk to, with some tendencies played for laughs...like when she removes a curse on the king, she gleefully mentions it was fun to use him as a test subject, much to the chagrin of everyone.
Conclusion?
Easy keeper.
Woagh
Hey everyone. Some of you have probably noticed that I had been on the Complete Monster cleanup post, and that I've asked for some changes to be made on the entry for The Black Pirate. So then I figured, as long as I'm still thinking about this film, I might as well try to propose a character for magnificent.
What's the Work?
The Black Pirate is a mid-20s silent pirate film, that's semi-famous for being shot in two-strip Technicolor at a time when the technique was still being protected, and impressive stunt work by Douglas Fairbanks. Although there's still a story within this, it mainly consists of nearly every pirate trope that existed at the time, and may not appeal to certain modern audiences.Who is the Black Pirate and what has he done?
As for the story itself, the lead character (later revealed to be the Duke of Arnoldo) is one of the Sole Survivors of a brutal raid by a pirate gang who blow the ship up and killed most of the inmates, and after he escapes with his father on an island, the father shortly passes away, leaving his son to bury his father and vow to avenge him. Ironicly enough, the pirate gang responsible for the raid happened to arrive on the same island to bury the treasure they captured. The Duke decides he wants to join the pirate gang, but the pirate captain and lieutenant state he has to prove himself worthy of a spot on the crew. He decides to challenge the crew's best swordsman to a duel — the captain — and defeats/kills him with ease. The pirate crew's impressed, but the lieutenant's not convinced just yet.The Duke decides he'd single-handedly take a Spanish ship on, to further prove his value. He'd make his way onto the ship, using a sail to fly into the rigging, and slicing his way down the sails and holding the entire Spanish crew at cannon-point. Unfortunately, The Duke's plan his foiled when the pirates resort to their usual looting tactics. They'd come across a princess, and as the Duke officially takes up the alias of "The Black Pirate", he convinces the pirates to take both the ship and the princess hostage, although the lieutenant has ... other plans for the princess
Although, The Black Pirate tries to go behind the pirate crew's backs and rescue the princess from being held hostage, and improvises his way through some tight scrapes. Unfortunately the lieutenant was one step ahead of him all along, and forced the Black Pirate to walk the plank — as many other pirates do. He falls off the plank and survives the depths of the waters. Swimming ashore, he'd return with a boatload of men to rescue the princess; the crew scuttle the ship, and, swimming underwater, The Black Pirate and his men storm the pirate vessel and capture it. The Black Pirate reveals that he is a Spanish duke and offers his hand in marriage to The Princess, which she accepts.
Is he Magnificent?
Definitely, The Duke of Arnoldo or "The Black Pirate" is an incredibly skilled Action Hero typical of the usual Douglas Fairbanks role, complete with the usual graceful fighting and top-notch swordsmanship. Aside from the fact that he was able to easily defeat the pirate captain — the most skilled fighter in the crew — in a duel and kill him, he managed to sneak onto another ship, and took advantage of the pirates' sudden appearance to hold the ship hostage singlehandedly. Although he was also able to outmaneuver a lot of the pirates and came very close to rescuing the princess prior to getting caught, and even after walking the plank and seemingly drowning, he survived the water and gathered a recuse squad to capture the boat he once worked on. And as a bonus, he's also the Duke of his homeland, making him a royal who's actually active.Is he a Bastard?
Despite the titular pirate technically being on the side of good (by default), there's still the fact that he willing joined a violent pirate gang as part of his plan to avenge his late father. Not only did he kill the pirate captain just to impress the pirate crew so he could join, but he also raided a harmless Spanish ship and held everyone on the ship hostage. He's also not afraid to get rough as he shot, stabbed, and strangled a good number of people in his raids and even while rescuing the princess.Final Thoughts
I previously said that the film's plotline wasn't one of the film's strength's but there's still enough of a storyline to find a potential character from it, and I should still at least try to propose someone. So, here goes...Edited by SpaceProtagonist on Dec 19th 2021 at 9:00:59 AM
And that's a yes.
Malefor counting would be like Zanza from Xenoblade counting. He's just too monstrous. Again, I use Hans Gruber to judge if a crossover can happen. If they aren't worse than him it's possible but Malefor is easily one of the most vile Spyro villains. I'd say nobody in any Spyro game counts except maybe Skylanders because I have not played it.