During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
DGS aside from Vortex has no other villains that qualify mainly due to Crogley being extremely slimy, not even hiding the fact he's an ass, and goes down way too easily. I give Vortex credit where it's due, he's probably one of the only Shu Takumi villains to go out honourably aside from Gant and not have some major sanity slippage that prevents him from qualifying.
I was also thinking of proposing Darktail as while he is a really bad guy (close to a CM, only saved by a tragic backstory similar to Ganondorf) he doesn't have the aura of arrogance and smug attitude that most Warrior Cats villains do. There's also Sol but I'd like a second opinion on him.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Here's an entry I've removed from City of Heroes: You will be hard pressed not to come to this conclusion once you see just how complete Lord Recluse can plan out an entire society of super-villains and exploit the crap out of it. This is to say nothing of how many evil geniuses he simply puts to shame with his Xanatos Speed Chess.
IPP Wick Check created.
Would anyone object to me EP'ing Samir Duran from the Starcraft franchise?
Go ahead, but he's a tough sell for me.
Now, then...one I've been awaiting...from the Heaven Cycle by our own Scraggle. The work is a sort of dark fantasy set on earth, where a group of teens are put through hell by a shadowy corporation and discover an odd destiny ahead of them...turns out they're trapped in the Heaven Cycle, an endless death and rebirth of the world at the hands of divine powers when heaven and hell are as bad as one another...the true mastermind is Chayne Summers. A grieving mother out to make a world where her daughter never died to a horrific illness....and she's willing to sacrifice whatever she has to. Now, on the hell side, there is one character who may qualify as an MB...let's talk Erebos.
Who is Erebos?
The adopted son of the Lord of Hell, proud Azazel...Erebos was born Nestor in ancient greece. Now, one of the demons, a monster named Naberius is a torture fanatic, and to keep him away, Azazel had frequently offered him innocent towns and cities over the cycle. In Greece, Naberius was collecting his victims when Azazel arrived to save a single infant...knowing the child was an Immune, someone with powers of their own. Naberius surrendered the child to Azazel in return for the rest of the city, and Azazel raised the baby, Nestor, as Erebos...
In the modern day, Erebos is the leader of the Sect of the Broken Mind, carrying out Azazel's dirty work. He forms the sects of the Broken Mind while being on a mission for Azazel...in truth, however? This is all a lie. Azazel's promises of a better world or affection for Erebos are garbage. Under Azazel's direction, Erebos assembles followers and leads them to their ruin for the furthering of Hell's goals, while simultaneously frustrating the goals of heaven. Especially those of Pluto, the leader of the Children of Heaven and a devious sadist-Erebos's arch-nemesis. In the present, Erebos ends up working with the heroes Tango and Mint, and their faction who are opposed to both heaven and hell. Tango is approached by Azazel to infiltrate the city of Solomon to obtain an item called a Menhir...it turns out this is one of Azazel's own gambits to screw over heaven and unleash Naberius to destroy Solomon. However, Erebos reveals himself as The Mole when he cautions Tango on Azazel's plans, allowing them to escape as well. Erebos proceeds to assist them in heading to hell to save one of their number, Cryne...there it turns out? All of Erebos's manipulations were for a lie. There is no eternal bliss for humanity, no eternal reward...just agony and death. Azazel cared nothing for him, and is planning on seizing the good guys to finally wipe out heaven and all life on earth save for the demons he rules.
....except Erebos kind of saw it coming and turns the tables. Out-gambiting his mentor, he allows for one of the heroes to arrive in Hell, channeling the divine power of Mint, Tango's love interest...and vaporizing Azazel into ashes, recovering everything they need and returning to earth. Erebos, embracing his old name of Nestor proceeds to fight in the war on Tango's side, helping the heroes oppose heaven and hell to stand a fighting chance in saving the world and bringing down Chayne's machinations. By the end, when the war is all but finished, the psychopathic archangel Uriel prepares to annihilate half the universe in one go. realizing what he must do, Erebos prepares himself, giving Tango a last goodbye...and flies at Uriel to obliterate them both in one final blast saving the universe and allowing Tango and friends to save the rest of it from Chayne herself.
Is he charming? Charismatic? a planner?
Erebos is stoic, but intensely charismatic. He has assembled multitudes of followers in the Sect of the Broken Mind and given them a purpose, manipulating many, many Immunes toward hs ends. While it must be admitted that Erebos functions as Azazel's pawn, Azazel trusts his ability and with good reason. All he does for Hell is his own skill and talent, and he actually breaks Azazel's script by helping Tango and the others. While Azazel did anticipate this to some extent, Erebos ends up reclaiming his own identity...and not just that? He arranges for Azazel's death; a trillions years old monster who forms Byzantine schemes just to amuse himself and Erebos leaves him flatly shellshocked and annihilated, before performing an epic heroic sacrifice to save the universe.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
yes. His manipulations for Hell get a LOT of people killed, he betrays and sacrifices his followers to see if he feels anything...but he finds out he's devastated at it and can never truly erase the kind person he is under it. Even that aside, he does a full turn to the side of good , helps to destroy Azazel and gives his life to save the world. Pass here.
Conclusion?
I would say a pretty easy keeper.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Ereb
And that’s a yup for first official Heaven keeper.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Heck yes on Erebos/Nestor. Reading his character entry, this guy is the one that came to mind as an MB other than possibly the mighty Chayne herself.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I'd actually like to propose Chayne. The biggest issue with Chayne Prime, though? Just working with Naberius is problematic. Actively allowing him to indulge himself when Chayne can literally obliterate him with a thought tips the scales badly
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Whoops... Yeah, that seems the biggest issue with Chayne but I'm cool with challenges. Meanwhile, I will try to do an EP which will be another challenge for me.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Here's Duran.
What is the work?
The work is the Starcraft series of video games.
Who is the character?
The character is Samir Duran, aka Emil Narud.
What does he do?
At the dawn of the universe, the alien gods the Xel'naga seed the universe with life and then wait for two races to naturally evolve to possess "purity of essence" and "purity of form", that will find them slumbering at the center of the galaxy and receive the Xel'naga's spirits from them to become Xel'naga themselves and travel to a new universe to continue the cycle of creation. One Xel'naga, Amon, sought to break this cycle, seeing it as corrupt. A war between the gods broke out and Amon was killed, his essence returned to the Void between universes.
A survivor Xel'naga of Amon's followers, Duran, began plans to complete his master's work, which included creating a genetic Hybrid of the Zerg and the Protoss, the two races Amon had identified as possessing purity of form and purity of essence. Within Duran's plans, the Hybrid would take control of the Zerg and use them to exterminate the Protoss and all other life in the galaxy, and then consume the Zerg themselves. The ultimate goal of Duran's Hybrid experiments would be to create a massive Hybrid to act as a host body for Amon's spirit.
By the time of the Brood War expansion of the first game, Samir Duran was the leader of a rebel group opposing the Terran Dominion. Duran arranged an assassination attempt on Dominion Emperor Arcturus Mengsk, but his forces failed. Duran made contact with the United Earth Directorate that was invading the sector and offered them his services in exchange for amnesty, and was accepted into the fold. While working with the UED, the fleet found a device called the Psi Disruptor on Tarsonis, the capital world of the government that had preceded the Dominion; the Disruptor could disrupt the ability of the Zerg to coordinate through their Hive Mind. As the UED intended to take control of the Zerg, Duran advised the Disruptor be destroyed to avoid it falling into enemy hands and being used against them. The UED ddmiral, Dugalle, agreed, but his vice-admiral Alexei Stukov saw the Disruptor as pivotal to their victory and sent his agents to intercept Duran and take control of the mission from him, secretly moving the Disruptor to the planet Braxis.
Duran continued to serve with the UED providing forces and intel until Emperor Mengsk fled his capital world Korhal with the rebel Jim Raynor, taking refuge on the Zerg-infested Protoss homeworld of Aiur. As the UED forces pursued them, Duran's forces were mysteriously moved out of position, allowing a wave of Zerg to descend on the UED and cover Mengsk and Raynor's escape — Duran feigned ignorance of what was happening. Stukov, realizing Duran had betrayed them, took his men to Braixs to activate the Psi Disruptor. When Dugalle discovered the Disruptor had not been destroyed, Duran convinced him Stukov had betrayed the UED and was sabotaging their mission, and Dugalle authorized Duran to infiltrate the Disruptor and execute Stukov for treason.
Duran took a force of UED men into the Disruptor and fought their way to Stukov, where Duran fatally shot him and then vanished from sensors. The dying Stukov revealed to Dugalle that Duran was the true traitor and was secretly infested by the Zerg, and had been working to undermine the UED. Moments after Stukov died, the Disruptor's core was set to overload, and Duran unleashed Zerg into it. Dugalle convinced Stukov's men to aid him in repelling the Zerg and they fought their way to the Disruptor core and aborted its destruction. Dugalle took the UED to the Zerg base world of Char and took control of the Overmind that controlled a substantial part of the Zerg. After, Duran revealed himself with another leader of the Zerg, Kerrigan, who taunted Dugalle before leaving.
It is revealed that Kerrigan commanded the Zerg that had allowed Raynor and Mengsk to escape, and formed an alliance with them to depose the UED. With Duran as her lieutenant, Kerrigan and her allies routed the UED from Braxis and Korhal, leaving Char as their only staging point. Kerrigan chose the aftermath of the liberation of Korhal to turn on her allies, and with advice from Duran launched a surprise attack that crippled her enemy's forces before she left. To make her critical strike against the UED on Char, Kerrigan travelled to the Protoss world Shakuras to abduct a Protoss commander, Raszagal, that was secretly under her thrall. Duran formulated the plan to abduct her and led the field operation himself, which was successful. Using Raszagal as a hostage to manipulate the Protoss Zeratul, Kerrigan convinced him to kill the Overmind for her, granting her full control of the Zerg. Zeratul attempted to get Raszagal to safety, but his forces were attacked and he slew Raszagal rather than let her live as Kerrigan's slave. Surprised and amused by Zeratul's actions, Kerrigan allowed him to leave with a small band of survivors. In the wake of this battle, Duran vanished and could not be contacted.
As his forces left Char, Zeratul detected a Protoss signal on a dark moon, which had no record of habitation. Wondering if it could be other survivors, Zeratul went to investigate. He found a Terran base there that were experimenting on Protoss and Zerg specimens, and in the deepest area of the base he found a Protoss/Zerg Hybrid in stasis. A voice spoke to Zeratul, expressing pride in the Hybrid, and claimed that while I Have Many Names, Zeratul would know it as Samir Duran. Duran revealed that Kerrigan knew nothing of the Hybrid or his experiments with it, though her rebirth had been of aid to him. Duran taunted that he had seeded the Hybrid on many worlds, and Zeratul would never find them all before they awakened.
Some time after this, Duran took on a new guise as Emil Narud, a Terran scientist. Narud became the head of a Hybrid research program under Emperor Mengsk and the Terran Dominion, and became friends with the heir apparent Valerian Mengsk. Valerian and Narud founded the Moebius Foundation, which studied ancient Protoss and Xel'naga ruins and artifacts. Narud continued his Hybrid projects with backing from both elder and younger Mengsks, concealing the full extent of his progress from them both.
At some point Alexei Stukov was infested and resurrected in the process, but a nanite serum devised by the Protoss reversed his infestation, and he was handed over to the Moebius Foundation to study the cure. Narud used Stukov as a lab rat for his experiments, his infestation slowly returning. Stukov later told Kerrigan that Narud/Duran was responsible for his infestation — if he meant his initial infestation or his re-infestation during his time at Moebius is unclear.
During the events of Starcraft II, through Valerian and Arcturus Mengsk, Narud contracts the criminal Tychus Fidlay, an old friend of Raynor's, to reunite with him and hire him to retrieve alien artifacts for Narud and the Moebius Foundation. When the Moebius headquarters came under attack by Kerrigan, Narud had Raynor aid in defense of the planet to destroy its data cores, so Kerrigan could not use their intel to find the artifacts herself. Valerian eventually met Raynor personally and claimed the artifacts were of Xel'naga origin, and could reverse the infestation of Kerrigan. Using a device created by Narud, the complete assembled artifact returned Kerrigan to a mostly human form and drained her energies.
Unknown to any of them, the artifact, called the Keystone, was a Xel'naga device intended to be used in the transfer of their spirits to their new vessels — it was Narud's designs that modified it into a weapon to drain Kerrigan of her energy. Raynor and Valerian took Kerrigan and the Keystone to Narud, who wished to examine Kerrigan but was constantly refused by a protective Raynor. Narud betrayed them to Arcturus and escaped his space station with the Keystone, leaving the group to fight Hybrid he had unleashed on them. Narud used Kerrigan's energy within the Keystone to resurrect Amon, but he remained trapped in the Void without a physical form. He then handed the Keystone off to Arcturus Mengsk for his own purposes.
Kerrigan eventually took back control of the Zerg and reinfested herself. Alexei Stukov escaped his confinement by Moebius and contacted Kerrigan to inform her of one of their primary labs he would have destroyed in revenge. After fighting past Terrans in Narud's employ, and fanatical Protoss that worshipped Amon, Kerrigan confronted Narud and fought him, defeating and killing him. As he died, Narud whispered he had already revived Amon, and she would see him soon. Though Narud was dead, the remnants of Moebius Foundation would continue his work under the thrall of the Hybrids, becoming part of Amon's army when Amon himself became more active.
Narud's Xel'naga spirit returned to the Void. Two years later when the three races united to invade the Void and kill Amon, Narud participated in guarding a benevolent Xel'naga, Ouros, from them. The combined forces pushed Narud's back and Stukov destroyed Narud for good.
Is he magnificent?
Duran/Narud manipulates all three factions and major leaders within them, serving them, betraying them, and turning them against each other, all to further his ultimate goal of creating Hybrid and serving Amon's goal of exterminating all life in the galaxy. He is a shapeshifter and claims to have taken on many different guises in the past in his plans, and no one ever knows or suspects his motives or true identity. He operated under the Dominion and the Mengsk family for several years, using their resources to further his experiments while hiding the full extent of his progress from them. Even Zeratul, the one being who did know what Duran truly was and was trying to do, didn't know all the details after years of investigation.
It is not known to what degree Duran engineered some events, such as Stukov's infestation or the actions of Arcturus Mengsk, but in all cases they either do not hinder him or he is able to take advantage of them. He had no hand in the infestation of Kerrigan (long story shore, the lore is that she would ultimately bring about Amon's defeat and this was always the goal behind her infestation), but is able to manipulate her and then drain her energies to resurrect Amon, and similarly took part in the UED's campaign to further his goals as he could use them, and then abandoned and betrayed them.
In all his interactions Duran maintains a calm, well-spoken Affably Evil facade, but when showing his true colors he becomes more arrogant and condescending, such as telling Kerrigan "the [Zerg] Swarm has served its purpose. It is a broken tool, fit only for the scrap heap". While he shows anger during his battle with Kerrigan and growls This Cannot Be!, Duran never undergoes anything one could call a Villainous Breakdown and just whispers You Are Too Late in her ear as he dies. When Stukov kills him for good in the Void, Duran sneers when he see who his killer is and asks if he intends to gloat over his victory. In both cases, Duran's deaths come about due to no flaw or error on his part — his enemies are just too powerful for him to defeat. And then even in defeat, his objectives succeed — his Hybrid experiments create powerful troops for Amon to control, and Moebius Foundation comes under the control of the Hybrids and they use Duran's research to create Amon's host body.
Is he a bastard?
Duran is directly responsible for mass deaths in all three races, engineering conflict between them in multiple directions. He works to serve his master Amon, an Omnicidal Maniac who wants to destroy all life in the universe. On his own though, Duran is not shown to take any pleasure in the chaos he creates, it is a means to an end — in fact when speaking to Zeratul, Duran expresses a distaste for his violent tendencies in his disgust toward the idea of a Hybrid being.
He is arrogant, condescending, and cruel, regarding all other lifeforms as beneath him, fit only to be used and/or destroyed by him, the Hybrid, and Amon. He experiments on all three major races in the name of his Hybrid projects and is proud of his creations.
Conclusion
Duran turns everyone into his Unwitting Pawn to create the Hybrid and revive Amon, and his plans succeed and outlive his death.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
"He is arrogant, condescending, and cruel, regarding all other lifeforms as beneath him, fit only to be used and/or destroyed by him, the Hybrid, and Amon."
I'll abstain on Duran but leaning on tentative no actually after reading that line. Anyways, does Kerrigan counts as MB?
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 23rd 2018 at 10:45:49 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I might lean yea on Duran reading that...he IS a Xel'Naga and things don't go wrong for him because of many mistakes he made.
I brought Kerrigan up before - it was mentioned that all her actions must be taken into account, we can't pick and choose. With her redemption arc in the sequel, mood swings and volatile nature, and the implication her actions in the first game was influenced by Amon and she wasn't fully acting on her own judgment, she wouldn't make it
Going to have to say nay there. Close but the summation of his personality makes him sound a tad too detestable for me.
Alrighty
- The Heaven Cycle: Erebos, real name Nestor, is the adopted child of the demon lord Azazel and the master of the Sect of the Broken Mind. Manipulating his sect for ages to serve the interests of hell, even leading them to sacrifice themselves to test his emotions and further the strikes against heaven, Erebos eventually betrays Azazel to help Tango and their friends at Solomon. When Erebos helps them delve into hell to save a friend Azazel has captive, Azazel attempts to break Erebos by revealing his entire life and purpose were a line from the start. Erebos promptly turns the tables, enacting a brilliant scheme that results in Azazel;s death before Erebos dedicates himself fully to saving the world, making a final stand against the psychotic Archangel Uriel for the fate of the universe.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yeah... Kind of agree with 43110 there.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I'm kinda going to lean on Duran
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 23rd 2018 at 6:22:48 AM
Goku Black
Erebos
I'll give a slight ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Duran. Though he's very close
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Alright, another candidate for me. One of my personal favorite villains of all time and a tricky one at that too.
What's the Work
So, the work name is Shining Resonance Refrain. A game by Sega which is an updated re-release of a game called Shining Resonance. The story at first focuses on the Astoria army that tries to free some captive in a place known as the Gaelritz Prison. However, the story focuses on one of the Gaelritz Prisoner's captive, Yuma Ilvern, who is the vessel of an entity known as the Shining Dragon.
As the dragons were thought to be extinct due to the first catastrophe that happen, Yuma was taken as a captive by Lombardian Empire as a result. Fortunately, the Astorian army and it's leader, the Princess of Astoria Sonia Blanche and her elf companion from Wellant, Kirika Towa Alma, saved Yuma from trouble and originally they were stopped by the princess of the Lombardian Empire, Excella Noa Aura, but the three heroes manage to escape from her clutches and as a result, Sonia then asks Yuma to join their side so that they could save Astoria from the Empire's dominion.
Originally, Yuma was really scared when trying to release his true power because of the Dark and Troubled Past he experienced. However, as the time went by, he is capable to control the power of the Shining Dragon and tries at his best to save Astoria from the Empire's clutches with Sonia, Kirika, Kirika's elf servant Rinna Mayfield, A fiery man who has a huge Big Brother Instinct towards Yuma, Agnum Bulletheart, the youth who was originally one of the Empire's puppets, Marion le Shiella and lastly Kirika's stern but kind brother, Lestin Sera Alma.
Yes, the character that I will propose is the Princess of Lombardian Empire, Excella Noa Aura and although she hits the mark, there's some tricky parts of her qualifications.
Who is She/What Has She Done
So, Excella Noa Aura is the Princess of Lombardia and the master of a Legendary Weapon/Armonics that can control three powerful dragons known as the Dracomachina which looks like three legendary dragons from Yugioh called the Dracomachina. After Yuma escapes the prison along with the likes of Sonia and Kirika, Excella then prevents them from escaping from the prison and freeze Kirika and Sonia during the fight while giving them a crucial detail of the fight against one of the Dracomachina, Trishula, regarding on how she controls the dragon.
After Yuma and the other two heroes manages to escape from Excella, the three dragons then try to capture them but aware that the power of the Shining Dragon can knock them out. Excella, being a benevolent boss she is, rescind the order to capture the three heroes because she don't want to see her comrades getting hurt.
In the meantime, she then have some meeting with the Beowulf members, Georg, Joachim, Zest and Beatrice regarding the reports of the Shining Dragon Borne and the reason why she did this is because she wanted to capture the dragon for herself and was revealed that she wants to use its powers for her father's will that she holds for 10 years regarding the Lombardian Empire War.
After the three manages to save Kirika's servant, Rina Mayfield. Georg then brings the four into Glaucus Falls and Excella compliments Georg about his accomplishments and then summons Gae Bolg to obliterate them. After Gae Bolg is defeated, Excella compliments the hero for being a competent fighter and tries at her best to assist her dragon. However, her dragon was stopped by the mysterious wanderer, Jinas Aeon, and with Georg advices, Excella manages to run away and has no interest in fighting as she was just merely observing the Shining Dragon's power.
Back to their base, Excella and Joachim are having a meeting together regarding the latter's research and Joachim then tells her about the souls of 4 World Dragons and as a result, she then orders the Beowulf soldiers to obtain the Souls of the 4 World Dragons. In the meantime, Georg is up to something not according to her wishes and then orders the Dark Elf, Beatrice, to spy on her movement. Excella, being a Benevolent Boss she is, accepts Beatrice on her side and doesn't view her as a traitor.
After one of the dragons, Gae Bolg, is having a fight with one of the Beowulf members, Zest Graham, she is surprised with Zest's power because the latter can one shot Gae Bolg and tries to interfere the battle against them because she doesn't want to see Gae Bolg getting hurt. After seeing Zest's power, she then laments about Zest can be a great soldier that can be useful to her with the right touch and direction.
After another meeting in their base, Excella then proceeds to masses a large army led by Georg and Zest in a location called Clavaile Crags under the pretense that she wants to attack the Kingdom of Astoria's capital city, Marga, which resulted the heroes and the Astorian army getting lured out as a bait. In reality however? She has no interest with the destruction of Marga and that she was trying to take the soul of the Sky Dragon, which is one of the souls that the heroes got. She then tries to negotiate with the King of Astoria, King Albert Blanche, and uses one of her dracomachina dragons, Trishula, in order to make both of the king and the citizens of Marga surrender against her.
Despite the negotiations, the King refuses to surrender which resulted on Excella critically injured him. However, it was revealed that he actually prepared an armonic for her daughter, Sonia, in order to defeat Excella once and for all. During the fight, she tries to not underestimate her opponents and after seemingly defeated by the heroes, it was revealed that it was just a distraction as the Dark Elf, Beatrice, helps her with stealing the soul of the Sky Dragon which is the object of Excella interest. However, at the same time, she also wants the power of the Shining Dragon but given on how uncontrollable the power of the Shining Dragon was, Excella has no choice but to run away.
And despite that one mistake, Excella then tried at her best to learn from her mistakes by not provoking the Shining Dragon. During the meeting with Georg before the siege of Marga, the latter said that he doesn't care that much about the threats of the civil war in Lombardia. However, Excella rebukes him and said that there are consequences for insulting her father and suggest Zalbard speak with more caution. Knowing that Zalbard is up to something that is against her wishes, she then orders Beatrice to spy on Zalbard. After the siege, she then meets with Jinas again which the latter had the plan to capture the Shining Dragon and Excella willingy hears to it.
After following Jinas' plan, it was revealed that she tries to perform an armistice in order to negotiate with Yuma and the heroes in order not to cause more deaths on both sides. However, at first, Yuma rejects her negotiations due to the war that happen that cause more victims which causes Excella to burst into tears and revealed her motivation to Yuma and the heroes is that she wants to save her dying father in order to save Lombardia from the crisis that they will face in the future. As a result, Yuma is persuaded by Excella and tries to comfort her.
Unfortunately, Georg crashes the party and then betrays her by killing her father and incriminates her as the traitor and then controls the three legendary dragon. However, with the help of Beatrice, they both manage to escape. When they encounter with Georg again, she then manages to took over the three dragons again. However, during the fight against Georg, both Beatrice and her three dragons performs a Heroic Sacrifice against him and Excella tries to save them which to no avail and resulted on her getting injured.
However, after several Trauma Conga Line that she had faced, she then pulls a Heel–Face Turn and joins the hero side and one instance is that she tries to wake Yuma from his coma along with Kirika after his powers got drained by Georg. And after defeating Georg and his evil god, Deus, for good, she is one of the people who perform the Last Song in order to prevent the disaster from happening again in the future. However, she is still a fugitive of her empire under the protection of Astoria thanks to Georg's doings.
However, in Refrain Mode, while Excella also suffers the Trauma Conga Line that she had in the alternate timeline, it was revealed that she time travels (iirc) to the present and joins Yuma side in order to defeat Georg once and for all and even if she seemingly lost everything, she had Yuma on her side and in this game, you can also romance her as you wish and if you got a high affection from Excella, in the end of the game, she confesses her love for Yuma and the two of them vow to return to the Empire together to clear her name and reclaim her rightful place on the throne as a princess and her knight, directly referencing the end of her favorite fairy tale.
How Does Her Actions Show Her That She is An MB
Alright, the reason why I propose Excella as an MB is that while she brags about her power at first and something bad happening to her plan, she willingly tries at her best to learn her lesson in the battle and tries at her best not to underestimate her opponents. That and despite being a villain, she had a shades of Benevolent Boss and has a huge charisma towards her subordinates. Case in point is that she was beloved by her people from Lombardian Empire and was seen as the iconic hero to the point that one of the minor characters, Fernando, sang her praises while traveling through the Empire to ensure he'd never run out of coin. Not only that, despite a little bit mistake during the siege of Marga which she ended up learning from her mistakes, she pulls a totally impressive gambit during the siege of Marga and was revealed that she had no interest in destruction so yeah...
So What About the Mitigating Factors that Excella Had That Possibly Prevent Her As An MB?
So, here's the challenging part of her qualifications as an MB. The reason why I hesitated at first is because the last chapters of the game (And possibly the one part that I will bring in "Is she a bastard, too much?" category) where Excella experienced a huge Trauma Conga Line after Georg betrays her for furthering his own agenda by killing her father and then incriminates her as the traitor of the Empire. Not only that, her own companions, Beatrice and the three Dracomachina, died during the battle against Georg and Excella was injured after trying to safe Beatrice and in the original timeline, she was still a fugitive under the Astorian Kingdom Protection so yeah... This is a one huge mitigating quality that can prevent her as an MB.
However, I should note something: Excella is not much of an Unwitting Pawn at all! In fact, she does feel aware that Georg is up to something that's not lining up with her or the Empire's wishes to the point that she orders Beatrice to spy on him. However, neither of them realize the full depths he's willing to go until he's already done it so I can give a leeway that her getting betrayed with Georg was resulted on unpredictable circumstances on her plans and if you guys combine the story of the Refrain mode? Excella does tries at her best to get back to the Empire and try to clear her name and reclaim her rightful place on the throne after Yuma joins her side. So yeah... I think I'm cool with it.
Another major issue is that Excella did made a mistake a little bit during her siege on Marga by trying to take the power of Shining Dragon for herself. But even then, I should note that she does try to learn from her experience and try not to make the Shining Dragon angry again. And when Jinas came up with the plan regarding the armistice between Astorian and Lombardia, she willingly follows his plan and successfully manages to persuade Yuma when she burst into tears during the negotiation because in the end of the day, she just want to save her father and the Empire. So yeah... I'm torn on this one.
Is She A Bastard? Too Much?
Excella is not a saint. She does try to prevent the heroes from escaping Gaelritz Prison, tries to laid siege on Marga, critically injures the King during the fight, stealing one of the World Dragon's souls and this is where you could considered her bastard traits too much but at one point when she have a conversation with Joachim where the latter said that he will try to dissect Yuma until he become a marrow, Excella just say "As your wish" in a very stoic expression so yeah...
Although I do have to admit that her conversation with Joachim could be interpreted as her trying to research the power of the Shining Dragon more than anything but still. But that being said, honestly Excella is devoid of some revolting crimes and some of her crimes does have a purposes too as her main motivation? She just wanted to save her father and is willing to do anything to save her life and genuinely cared for the citizens of the Empire and she feared that after her father's death, a Succession Crisis would throw the Empire into yet another civil war due to many of the Empire's nobles seeing her possible claim to the throne as illegitimate and her being too young to be an effective ruler.
And her attacking Marga and critically injure King Albert was only a backup plan as she has no interest to cause more destruction and harm and also has no interest to conquer Astoria as she willingly tries to find a peaceful solution to end the war against Astoria to the point she does try to sign an armistice to do so. Not only that, her Benevolent Boss tendencies does help either considered that she viewed her dragons as not only her servant, but also her comrades and she also compliments Georg when he manages to lure the heroes to her trap and willingly listens to Georg's suggestion from fleeing in order to have her dragon, Gae Bolg, recovered although she was not limited to scold Georg and tries to figure out her plan considered he has a hidden agenda that is against wishes. (This is before Georg betrays her) Not only that, her benevolent boss tendencies is also shown towards the Dark Elf, Beatrice, and she doesn't even view Beatrice as a traitor and feel some sympathy on her past and view her as a genuine comrade even if Beatrice works for Georg.
So yeah... I think Excella has some redeeming qualities in the end of the day that can balance her bastardiness as compared to Georg and Joachim? She's a saint IMO.
Final Verdict
Excella is a truly complex character and she became one of my favorite villains of all time to the point I set my pfp based on her right now for a good reason. I understand if you don't found her to be a Magnificent Bastard due to several problems that she had when I EP her and I'm cool if she got downvoted because of several mitigating factors. But even then, I considered her to be one of the best characters or the best parts of Shining Resonance game and possibly considered her to be one of my top 10 waifus even if she doesn't qualify as CM or maybe MB 
but ah well... I'll let you guys decide at the end of the day.
And yeah, sorry if my EP ended up becoming a giant Wall Of Text as I tried at my best to explain Excella's actions, Mitigating Factors and great traits to you all and also the plot of the game in order to make you guys understand the plot very well. But yeah, until then, thoughts? I also have one more potential Shining Resonance keeper so be sure look forward to that.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Excell
I've cut this from Root Letter: The True Ending happened pretty much because of a Batman Gambit set up by Shiori as she knew the 11th letter would lead Max to try and find her.
Edited by MasterJoseph on Nov 24th 2018 at 11:14:06 AM
IPP Wick Check created.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Excella
Also. I have to bring this up. I am cutting this example from Zi Pang and asking...this really can count if properly EP?
The character seems like someone who can easily count in normal circuntances...the issue is, the manga is straight up genocide denial and Imperial Japan apology.
Like, treating the Second Sino Japanese war and Imperial Japan wars of expansion like a Grey-and-Grey Morality conflict. With our "heroes" deciding to try to get Japan to become better than in our timeline by...helping them to win the war.
Dunno if it counts as something with a premise too warped to have someone counting. I want read it for Bile Fascination, but dunno.
Watch me destroying my country
From what I remember Pain was a pawn but I am willing to hear out an ep.