During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Oreille.
Happy yeaa
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Ginyu, Skull Knight, Krystalinda, Snape, Shion and Oreille
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Pickles and Protagonist
to Skull Knight, Krystalinda, Film!Snape (alright, another for Alan Rickman), Shion and Madam Oreille
Goku Black
shion and orielee
Yeah to Orielle.
Gotta love Jaws!
Showtime!
to Shion and Orielle
Shion, Skull Knight, Orielle and...
SNAPE. SNAPE. SEVERUS SNAPE!
Lies and Violence!
Skull Knight, Krys, Snape, Shion, Orielle.
Orielle.
Orielle.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
... Aye to Madame "Ear".
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jun 16th 2021 at 5:03:15 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Had to take a break yesterday, Internet connection was a nuisance all evening.
Anyway...
for Ginyu, the Skull Knight, Krys, Snape, Shion, and Orielle.
for Pickles and the Protagonist.
Edited by TellAll111 on Jun 16th 2021 at 8:10:10 AM
The Moron
Sooooooooo how about this Cool Old Guy? Also, writing this out made me realize just how damn much this guy does.
Who is Albus Dumbledore? What does he do?
As we all know, Dumbledore is the Headmaster of Hogwarts and one of Harry Potter's most staunch allies throughout his time there. He's also, rather infamously, one of the biggest manipulators in the franchise - it's hard to find any scheme or plan in a movie or book that doesn't somehow trace back to him or that he doesn't take advantage of somehow. Among other things, he subtly manipulated Newt Scamander to New York and made moves/ultimately defeated Gellert Grindelwald in a legendary duel, claiming the Elder Wand for himself in the process. Unfortunately, he's also the one who found Tom Riddle and brought him to Hogwarts, thus accidentally creating Lord Voldemort. This mistake is one that he would spend the rest of his life fixing.
Alongside forming the Order of the Phoenix to counteract his Death Eaters and hiring Professor Trelawney after hearing her prophecy of the Dark Lord, he also borrows James Potter's cloak and agrees to help Snape keep the Potters safe in exchange for his loyalty (albeit after calling him the fuck out for his selfishness). Unfortunately, thanks to ol' Wormtail, that falls through, and the Potters are killed and Voldemort's defeated. Dumbledore rescues Harry from the wreckage and leaves him with the Dursleys, ensuring he'll be protected with a charm due to being in a house with blood relatives.
And thus, the grooming process began.
Having realized that Voldemort wasn't truly dead thanks to Horcruxes, he came to realize that Harry was a Horcrux himself and realized that Voldemort would have to kill him, so he began a plan to mold Harry into a person who would make that sacrifice willingly. He continued his underground operations with the Order, simply pretending that all is normal. In the first year, among other things, he gives Harry James' old Invisibility Cloak (a Deathly Hallow), knowing he'll use it right, and enchants the Philosopher's Stone so that only someone who doesn't want to use it can actually retrieve it, ensuring that Harry can retrieve it and destroy Quirrel (who Dumbledore suspected from the start) with Lily's love.
He later hires Gilderoy Lockhart specifically to unmask him as a fraud and, through Fawkes being summoned by Harry's loyalty, helps Harry defeat the Basilisk and defeat Riddle once more, with Dumbledore realizing that the Diary must be a Horcrux - and, because Riddle did so little to protect it, it must not be the only one. Additionally, in year three, he not only instantly believes Harry when he proclaims Sirius' innocence, but he also tells them how to rescue him and Buckbeak, all while pretending he has no idea what they did.
After Voldemort's return, however, things take a turn. He not only reformed the Order, but he began avoiding Harry, realizing the psychic link he shared with Voldemort and unable to take the risk that Riddle could hear something. To counter this, he asks Snape to teach Harry Occlumency, hoping to mitigate the risk that Voldemort could hear something damning. Along the way, he willingly takes the blame for Harry's "Dumbledore's Army" without hesitation, easily defeating and fleeing from the Ministry agents that come to capture him. He later returns for the Battle at the Ministry, easily holding Lord Voldemort back and capturing all of the Death Eaters (except Bellatrix) himself, even refusing to harm Harry when Riddle possesses him and trusting Harry to solve it himself.
In-between 5 and 6, Dumbledore manages to track down another Horcrux - that being a ring that contains the Resurrection Stone - and in a Moment of Weakness, he tried it on. He was cursed, and though he managed to destroy the ring, he began to live on borrowed time. Throughout 6, he teaches Harry everything there is to know about Voldemort; his psychology, his Horcruxes, everything. He also tracks down another one with Harry, taking part in the cave skirmish - unfortunately, not only is the Horcrux a fake, but when they return, they get cornered by Death Eaters, and although he pleads for Severus, Snape kills him on the spot. Book 7 reveals that he left all of the Trio something in his will that becomes useful to them - to Ron he leaves the Deluminator (which returns him to the team after he leaves), to Hermione he leaves the Beedle book (which gives them the story of the Deathly Hallows), and to Harry he leaves a Snitch (containing the Resurrection Stone inside it, making Harry the Master of Death later on).
In book 7, however, we learn much about him. In the past, he was an ally of Grindelwald's who intended to bring about wizard superiority - however, after a duel between the two and his brother Aberforth that killed his younger sister, Albus became disgusted with his past self and threw those ideals away. He also reappears in Snape's memories, which reveal to large things: not only did Dumbledore ask Snape to kill him (having realized that Draco was going to do it), but he know that Harry was a Horcrux and was grooming him from birth to be killed by Voldemort. Dumbledore reveals that because they share blood, Voldy's curse didn't kill all of him, just the part of the soul they share. As a result, Harry survives the Killing Curse and goes on to kill Voldemort with the Elder Wand, fulfilling Dumbledore's mission from beyond the grave.
Is he Magnificent?
Just look at how much this guy does throughout the franchise. Pretty much everything (except maybe the Chamber of Secrets) that Harry does throughout the series only works because Dumbledore's behind him giving him advice and tips, or outright manipulating the situation from the shadows. He has a hand in every pot and takes every loss or mistake like a champ, always coming back for more even from beyond the literal grave. Plus, he essentially manipulated Harry from birth to ensure he fulfilled his purpose, and even his own death is orchestrated on his command with a dual benefit - Draco doesn't kill him, and Snape's credibility in the Death Eaters soars. With Voldy's death, he walks to the afterlife having gotten everything he wanted, so yes, he really really is.
Is he a Bastard?
He's on the side of the angels, but he essentially groomed Harry from birth to be killed by the Dark Lord - and to be blunt, the only reason why it doesn't completely kill him is complete chance that we don't know he accounted for in life. For all he knew, he was getting Harry killed, and not only that, but he manipulated him for his entire life just so Harry would willingly perform that purpose. He's got a balance, don't worry.
Any mitigating factors?
None that he doesn't recover from. He takes the blame for Sirius' death because he pushed Harry away, but he learns his lesson and keeps Harry close in book 6. The ring he tries on poisons him, but he later orchestrates his own death. Plus, he is long past his days as a wizard supremacist and even employs a Squib (Filch) in his own school, so if that were an issue, it's gone by present-day.
Final verdict?
I think a yes to Albus Percival Wolfrick Brian Dumbledore - what about you?
I'm iffy on Dumbledore. I'd been thinking of proposing Mustang from FMA!2003. One of his first demonstrations of cunning is telling Edward to get on a train that is about to have a terrorist attack. It later comes out that Edward didn't have authorization to take the alchemy exam, but his demonstration of heroism on the train gives him the opportunity to take it anyway. I asked 43 about it and his problem was that while he manipulated Edward into getting in a situation where he would be in danger, he still wanted everyone to come out okay and his main point was to save lives. Dumbledore is I feel similar. Did he know Harry would survive? No, but he suspected he would and his main point was to save lives. It's different from I feel oogway who manipulates people for ends where there in grave danger simply to learn something about themselves. Perhaps I'm being too picky, I'm not sure.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I’ve long since come around to a yes for the beard of wisdom. He’s quite manipulative and while he was once a wizard supremacist, you’re correct that’s far in the past and for all his flaws in present, it’s no longer one of them.
The Moron
Keep in mind, it's not just getting Harry killed by Voldemort - it's grooming Harry from the age of 11 so that he'll willingly walk to his death. Like if it were a Let's You and Him Fight situation where he just puts Harry against Voldemort that's one thing, but he's specifically grooming him from the moment he arrives in Hogwarts to do it himself. There's also no indication that he knew ahead of time that Harry would survive - he explains why he did in the afterlife, but it's never even implied that he knew it in-life, and it's treated as though he survived by chance. We're left to assume that Dumbledore thought Harry was gonna die.
Well I'm abstaining, but I'll have no problem whatsoever if he goes up.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
There is an element of ambiguity and the length for which he goes to mould Harry’s life for his own purpose skews him more towards the likes of my recently approved Shion than 2003!Mustang.
Totally fair j, we appreciate this discourse as always and that’s why we respond to your points 
Edited by 43110 on Jun 16th 2021 at 11:28:35 AM
Yes to Dumbledore.
Goku Black
Dumbledore
The Dragon
Yes to Dumbledore.
I think the best model to follow would be what Lighty and Scraggle do since they collaborate when they write. If one of them has touched a particular story in any way, they get someone else to look at. If only one wrote the work in question, then we've called it kosher for anyone, including the non-involved half of the Scragglysnake, to be doing the EP, as has been decide for Neverkind Saga.
Now then, with Oreille's scenes winding up being a pretty brief watch through, here's my second contribution to what's turning into a dive Lighty has graciously allowed me in on:'
Who is Madame Oreille? What has she done?
A laid back CIA operative—and apparent past lover of Mao/Ricardo—with a vast knowledge of other people, she's introduced briefly in the Gaiden OVA. Telling Hei Yin is alive for her own ends, she takes note of his reaction.
In Gemini of the Meteor Oreille uses her connections to keep tabs on the cast, with her two "Dolls" informing her of Suou's activation as a Contractor. Meeting with policewoman Kirihara, she manipulates the latter's desire to see Hei again to instruct her to seek the Misaki Documents, which the sinister "Syndicate" guards against. After a confrontation with Hei Orielle again meets with Misaka, telling her of a contractor who can travel through time and later continues stringing alone Hei to brig Suou to Tokyo for her own purposes, observing the reemergence of the moon with her Dolls as Shion recreates it for Suou.
Killing a contractor as she collects Kirihara, Oreille explains her faction's role in re-establishing the US as a superpower. Fully prepared to continue her machinations into the next work of the show, we leave Oreille here as the work's never been continued since the second season in 2009.
Actions and personality?
She's a totally relaxed genius operative for her country and as Kirihara notes, excels at gaining information on people. She's such a pro she can even keep the likes of Hei—a top notch agent himself—just where she needs him even while he verbally lashes out at Oreille, continuing to have him play the part she needs.
Mitigating factors?
Oreille, like much of the work, is something of a cypher but her charm can't be disputed and the finale reveals she's working towards bringing her country back on top. To this end she plays fantastically and she's got more than enough time to show off her skills.
Verdict?
Another keeper.