During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Brain.
Gotta love Jaws!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Artemis and Brain.
I hope you get better soon, Klavice.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Artemis and Brain.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Moron
Yes to Artemis and Brain
Good lord Klavice, I hope you get well soon. Take care of yourself and take as long as you need.
@43: Everything in the drafts is good to go, captain!
Artemis & Brain
Carrot Clone
Brain with no Pinky
Thanks boss, just waiting on the final couple for Lupin and should be good for this week.
Alright, I'm still bugging Scraggle for his Lupin characters but otherwise am I missing anything here? I've been kinda rushed:
- Magnificent Bastard Quotes
- Magnificent Bastard Anime And Manga
- Magnificent Bastard Comic Books
- Magnificent Bastard Film
- Magnificent Bastard Live Action TV
- Magnificent Bastard Video Games
- Magnificent Bastard Visual Novels
- Magnificent Bastard Western Animation
- Magnificent Bastard Yu Gi Oh
- Magnificent Bastard DC Universe
- Magnificent Bastard Disney
- Magnificent Bastard Marvel Comics
- Magnificent Bastard Kamen Rider
- Magnificent Bastard Marvel Animation
Woagh
Since it’s nearly bed time and 43’s pushing for some writeups, here’s possibly our brainiest candidate yet:
- Skylanders Imaginators: Brain is the self proclaimed “last of the Ancients” who was sealed away for thousands of years. Coming into contact with Kaos, he happily assists him in harnessing Imagination Magic, using it to create progressively more powerful minions. Convincing Kaos into freeing him, he takes advantage of the Skylanders finding and freeing him, finding Kaos and using his vast powers to brainwash a chunk of Skylands to do their bidding, while also equipping the lair with an impenetrable force field. During the final battle, he finally gets fed up with Kaos’s attitude and helps the Skylanders defeat him out of revenge. Knowing he’s outnumbered, he successfully bargains to aid the Skylanders by showing them where trouble is happening, managing to become a professor for the Academy and ends up sincerely enjoying his new job.
As for other candidates from the series, Kaos has the occasional good scheme and is good in a fight but is usually played for a chump and isn’t very dignified, his mom’s more competent and charismatic but doesn’t do much, the DS game villains either don’t do much or are too smug, and while I considered doing The Darkness due to having actually pragmatic reasons to destroy Skylands and is relatively enjoyable, i’m a bit weary on doing a CM/MB crossover.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh hey, speak of the devil!
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Jun 10th 2021 at 8:19:25 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
That's fine but I'd rather we chill on writeups now. My interest as I've said a few times was specifically Lupin related and I don't want a litany popping up now that I just finished. Also reading the Darkness' entry it just sounds like an asshole.
The Draftsman of Doom
I will have an EP up in 40 min, stay tuned.
Rawr.
Lupin movie guys:
- Lupin III:
- Daisuke Jigen is a member of The Works who, after the death of his mentor and the dissolution of The Works, becomes a master thief and a member of Lupin's crew. A stoic, charismatic gunman able to keep up toe-to-toe with the master swordsman Goemon, Jigen is just as proficient a thief as his boss, while likewise matching Lupin's sense of honor when he refuses to kill an unarmed and suicidally repentant Michael Lee. Jigen's greatest feat of marksmanship in the film is when he shoots the trigger of a fallen mook's gun to have it fire upon one of the Co-Dragons, brushing off his foe's taunts with a cool-headed "keep it up, twerp."
- Fujiko Mine is Lupin's wily, on-again/off-again lover who introduces herself nabbing the Olympic Medal of Zeus in a masterful breakout, then sneaking it back into her clutches after she initially loses it to Lupin and Michael Lee. After Michael Lee betrays the works, Fujiko teams up with Lupin for the sake of personal revenge, cheerfully abandoning Lupin to the cops more than once with the knowledge Lupin will make it out. When one of the Big Bad's Co-Dragons tries to engage her in a fistfight in the end, Fujiko cuts the knot and just shoots her. As crafty as she ever is, Lupin admits Fujiko's complete lack of any real loyalty to anyone but herself is one of her most "endearing" traits.
Thanks mate, just gonna bulk up my two so they aren't oddly short and we're golden!
The Draftsman of Doom
As promised...
What is the work?
Cruella is a reimagining of the 101 Dalmatians lore.
The original Cruella de Vil was notorious for animal cruelty.
Here, the eponymous character is envisioned as a whole new kind of animal.
Who is Cruella de Vil, and how does she operate?
Before she was Cruella de Vil, Estella Miller was a troubled young girl who was regularly tormented by her peers, with the exception of a girl named Anita Darling. It would seem that her only friends as a schoolgirl were Anita, her mother, Catherine Miller and her adopted dog, Buddy. Eventually, Catherine pulls Estella out of school before her expulsion can go on record.
As they are in the midst of moving to London, Catherine goes to ask Baroness von Hellman for funds. Catherine is apparently thrown to her death by the Dalmatians who had been chasing Estella, who feels survivors guilt.
Estella hitches a truck to London, where she meets Jasper and Horace Badun, a pair of thieving children who recruit her for the purpose of performing theft and confidence tricks.
Years later, Estella is designing disguises for further acts of larceny. Eventually, she discovers the House of Baroness, and dreams about getting a job there.
Jasper pulls strings to have Estella work at the Liberty Department Store, where she puts up with being treated like a second class citizen. Eventually, after a night of cleaning her employer's office, Estella tampers with the window display. This results in Baroness von Hellman herself noticing Estella and hiring her in a twist of irony.
However, eventually, Estella notices the Baroness wearing a necklace that her mother used to wear. The Baroness frames the story as a former employee who betrayed her employer. Estella does not believe the Baroness, so she decides to steal the necklace back during a gala hosted by the Baroness.
To do this, she uses her job as an assistant to identify all of the cameras and blind spots in addition to the rest of the security system. She intends to disable the security system. She intends to disguise herself as "Cruella" to pose as a distraction and acquire keys.
On Gala night, Jasper and Horace pose as pest control, releasing a "raccoon" (actually a chihuahua) into the ball.
Meanwhile, Cruella makes a grand entrance, knocking over a champagne tower, and lighting her own overcoat on fire. She then fights off the Baroness' security personnel (in heels).
Horace discovers the vault empty, while Cruella realizes the Baroness is wearing the necklace. After Jasper sets Rats loose underneath a tray of food, Cruella steals the necklace, only for the Baroness to summon her Dalmatians with a dog whistle, thus causing Cruella to realize that the latter killed Catherine. A Dalmatian swallows the necklace in the commotion.
As the trio escape, they realize their ride has been towed, so Cruella hot-wires a car.
Cruella has Anita, now working for a tabloid, create buzz for her, while she has Jasper and Horace abduct the Baroness' Dalmatians.
Meanwhile, Estella goes back to work. She has moth eggs sewn to the Baroness' latest design and sabotages the safe. When the safe is opened, moths fly out. Outside, Cruella blasts music, dressed in a mock Dalmatian coat.
Afterwards, the Baroness has Jasper and Horace traced back to the flat, which the Baroness sets on fire before the Baroness' servant, John, rescues Cruella and tells her the truth about how she was born, and how her biological mother the Baroness tried to have her killed as an infant.
Cruella uses a bin lorry (garbage truck) to break Jasper and Horace out of jail, having the chihuahua, Wink, deliver a file to break out while the cops chase her. She dumps the lorry's payload in the middle of the street, trapping the cops while Jasper and Horace escape.
Eventually Jasper, Horace and Cruella reconcile since the two are the only family she has left.
Cruella tricks the female guests for the Baroness' next party to dress like her, resulting in a few guests being attacked by the Baroness' guards. Jasper and Horace block all of the security personnel into one room. Cruella pricks the Baroness with a pin to distract her while she steals the latter's dog whistle. In her Estella persona, Cruella blows the whistle, summoning the dogs. When the Baroness tries to sic her dogs on Cruella, she discovers that Cruella has tamed them.
Estella reveals her familial connection to the Baroness, who feigns reconciliation before pushing Estella off a cliff. Unfortunately for the Baroness, Cruella had surreptitiously summoned the guests outside, and created a parachute as part of her dress. Cruella returns to watch the Baroness getting arrested.
In the aftermath, Cruella now possesses everything that belonged to the Baroness, having faked Estella's death, and willed Cruella her fortune.
She delivers Pongo and Perdita in the middle of the credits to Roger (the Baroness' former Lawyer) and Anita.
Intelligence & Charisma?
Cruella is good at planning as evidenced by the Moth incident, where she had moth pupae used to sabotage clothing in a vault. She is also good at improvisation, as evidenced by her skills at hotwiring cars, and the fact that she abducts the Dalmatians when one of them accidentally swallows the necklace.
As for charisma, it's Emma Fucking Stone as a Disney Villain! More precisely, Stone gives Cruella quite a striking and Affably Evil screen presence.
She's...not the best driver, but considering everything else, I'll give her a pass on that.
Moral Flexibility?
Petty and grand larceny? Check! Conning her way into social gatherings? Check! Industrial sabotage? Check! Tricking party guests into dressing like her, thus throwing security off her case? Check! Abducts dogs? Check! Makes a Dalmatian coat? Ch-JUST KIDDING.
In all seriousness, Cruella is conniving and devious, but nowhere near too cruel to be considered. Even the idea of Dalmatian fur is a joke here.
Mitigating Factors?
Admittedly, Cruella can be a bit bossy at times, and occasionally lets her (healthy) ego get the better of her, but she has a tendency to recover well, and when she realizes how she has been treating Jasper and Horace, she makes sure to set things right.
She has some less dignified moments, like eating trash banana off of her own face, but those moments are far overshadowed by her overall flair and competence.
Nobody could say that wanting revenge for her mother's death would be too petty.
Competition?
Cruella is the strongest player in the film, getting the best of a ruthless woman who has proven herself capable of murder.
She also outfoxes the police and security personnel.
Jasper and Horace are no slouches themselves, but Cruella stands out apart from them, and they work together.
Verdict?
Cruella de Vil, Cruella de Vil; If she didn't charm you, I don't know what will; So watch Emma Stone go in for the kill; As Cruella, Cruella de Vil.
I initially wanted to do this entire EP to the tune of that song, but it would have been a pain in the ass.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 10th 2021 at 12:06:05 PM
Rawr.
Just saw that movie yesterday and I absolutely give her my
Happy to say to Cruella as well. For MB. Totally would've thought CM before that (though probably not for this movie too).
First for Emma Stone and first for Craig Gillespie as director. I'll be doing the writeup once the appropriate number of votes comes in.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 10th 2021 at 9:07:42 AM
The Moron
@43: Once you've bulked those up, I'll pothole all four and then the page will be good to lock.
And Cruella sounds like a yes - wonderful EP, BTW
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to And- I mean Cruella.
Seriously this movie really reminded me of the Devil Wears Prada. Not a complaint, but just something I noticed.
Edited by Bullman on Jun 10th 2021 at 11:18:51 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I Can't Believe I'm Saying This, but to Cruella
@Bull The Devil Wears Prada meets Joker.
Too bad we don't have Cruella vs. The Baroness for MB vs. CM…but we still got Maleficent vs. Ingrith though.
With one also having one of each, Live Action Remakes produced three CMs (three movies) and three MBs (four movies). "Perfectly bal-" Ah you get the point!
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 10th 2021 at 9:24:21 AM
Is this Cruella de Vil different? Because I know the animated Cruella isn't this trope.
Yes to Cruella. I tried potholing them Star but I suck at that... feel free to check over and change!
Yes to, uh, Cruella de Vil, apparently.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Brain
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."