During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Lies and Violence!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Was going to jokingly ask if Griffith was on the list, but just going to prematurely put in a "Hell no" to the rapist.
Did nothing wrong, sorry bro, fails the bastard criteria.
... Is this a version from some alternate continuity I'm unaware of?
Just wait'll you hear the arguments before downvoting people, chill
Alright. I guess it's only fair to hear you out.
Lies and Violence!
I apologize, I'm not going to give an actual vote one way or another until the EP is actually posted. That was more of a "this better be a really good argument" reaction.
On that note: this must be a really good argument. Looking forward to that.
Also, after reading her wiki page (because that thing is really detailed, Disney+ buffers a lot for me, and I don't want to spend 20 hours rewatching a show when I could spend a few minutes reading a page online), I think I'll give Dottie a try.
Speaking of failing the bastard aspect, I'm also gonna predict Skull Knight if you think he does enough morally dubious to count as he otherwise an easy keep as well.
Hmmm...I think a good argument could be made for Guts himself if you don't think he is too broken.
As for Griffith, maybe the 1997 anime version? I don't remember if he rapes Casca there and it ends just at the eclipse, so maybe that version could count.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
He does rape Casca in the '97 version. He's right out.
Eclipse happens in full bloody detail, rape included, in all versions of Berserk.
Goku Black
Expect I think the 2016 version (at least onscreen) unless I'm misremebering. But we don't talk about that. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Guys, guys.
Patience.
The Draftsman of Doom
Abstain on Faustus.
Feels good, don't it?
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Fennhoff
I'm just putting down as my formal predictions: Zodd, Silat, Guts, Skull Knight, and for a hot take, Mozgus.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Based on my recollections (and you'll be updated if you were right there for someone I'm wrong about) I think you're 3 for 5 dawg.
Alright, okay, I'm just messing with all of ya. The only Griffith who keeps is Berserk Abridged.
That said, ya know who I think does keep?
The Black. Fucking. Swordsman.
Who is Guts?
In this world, all human beings are bound by fate, save one...an unnamed child found beneath a hanged corpse on a tree, a baby taken by the lover of the mercenary Captain Gambino, who named the boy Guts and raised him to fight. Guts' adoptive mother Shisu died of plague soon after and years later gambino sold young Guts to a pedophile soldier for the night, with Guts refusing to believe Gambino had betrayed him after his rape. A furious Guts later showed off his tactical skill, isolating the man, Donovan during a battle and killing him brutally...the day came when a drunk, crippled Gambino tried to kill Guts who dispatched him first without meaning to, leaving Guts to flee and become a lone mercenary where he later killed an infamous knight named Bazuso, bringing him to the attention of the infamous Band of the Hawk...and their leader Griffith. Guts resisted their attempts to attack him until he faced Griffith and was defeated, press-ganged into the group...years would pass, Guts becoming the Hawks' raider captain and slowly opening to the group. For the first time in a long time he had companions and friends....minus Corkus, the loudmouth confidante of Griffith and the ever-belligerent Casca, Griffith's most loyal...
Guts would also handle the dirty work of Griffith, skillfully assassinating a rival count, the King of Midland's brother (and accidentally killing the man's young son to Guts' own horror)...but Guts also fell into a bad situation with an injured Casca when they were isolated and hunted down by a group of knights of Tudor, Midlands' rivals...Guts' tactical skill and fighting ability made sure they won the day, eventually culminating in the victory of Midland, with Guts striking down the infamous General Boscogn himself...now things go wrong.
Guts, realizing he could never be Griffith's equal and true friend if he remained his subordinate, tried to leave the Hawks, defeating Griffith in a duel to do so. Griffith broke and slept with Princess Charlotte, damning the Hawks and being abducted for ayear. Guts later returned, meeting Casca again and the two become lovers after a fight, with Guts leading the effort tor escue Griffith and fight off Midlands' forces, culminating in a battle with the sadistic Apostle Wyald...Guts is the one to form a strategy to mortally wound Wyald in the end...and then...the crippled Griffith soon invokes the Crimson Behelit...and calls the Godhand. We all know what happens then...the Hawks are devoured horrifically, with only three survivors: Guts, Casca (raped to insanity by Griffith and her unborn child poisoned by Griffith's seed) and little Rickert, who wasn't present...
Guts, driven by a desire for revenge, departs with a new set of goodies from a sympathetic blacksmith: the Dragonslayer sword, a cannonball/crossbow arm and more, hunting down and slaying Apostles not as a brute but a clever, clever bastard...Guts' first appearance is with a succubus Apostle who ate Corkus, letting himself having fallen prey to her charms and having sex with her to trap her...only to blow her head off when she transforms. Guts kills many Apostles, but his favorite tactic: let them smack him around, pick him up...and then use his cannon on their goddamn face. This usually works very well and Guts kills so many, the Dragonslayer sword goes from just a hunk of iron to a magic weapon. Volume 3 sees Guts kill an Apostle call the Count while brutally manipulating the man's daughter into hating him to give her a reason to live after.
Guts is then hunting an elfen Apsotle called Rosine, using a friend of Rosine's from mortal life to his advantage in the fight...and then learns the insane Casca has wandered off. Guts tries to find her, getting roped up in a conflict with the Church and more than that, Griffith's rebirth into the world, using Guts and Casca's poisoned child....Guts for the first time after also begins to have companions, including the orphan boy Isidro, a noblewoman named Farnese and her attendant Serpico, and later a young witch Schierke...Guts is gifted the Berserker armor by a being called the Skull Knight, a deadly artifact that will lead him to dark paths, while also showing his skill in battling other, stronger Apostles as Griffith twists the worlds of maic and reality together, with Guts also rejecting the offer of alliance with a former Apostle named Ganishka and even besting him with the help of Zodd
the series leads to a journey to Elfland, the home of the elves where Casca's mind can be healed....Casca's mind is restored in the end, but seeing Guts triggers back her memories of the Eclipse...with Guts and griffith's destined fight on the horizon.
....and sadly, with the passing of Kentaro Miura...this is where we last left Guts...we can only speculate and wait to see if the story will be finished by an assistant in the end.
How's he operate?
You know what? Guts is smart. Ever since he was a kid. The pig bastard who raped him? Guts bides his time, isolates him in battle and kills him. Guts is someone born into the battlefield, and as overwhelming as his power and speed are, Guts uses tactics and intelligence all the time. His charisma is obvious for the reader and while Guts cna be an angry, ANGRY guy...Guts is also soulful, philosophic, gentle, sorrowful, tragic...it took him a while, but the Hawks became his family. He loved them, grew to see them as his true comrades and even his "betrayal" of Griffith is because he wants to find his own destiny and stand along Griffith as an equal, not just a tool...
Through it all, we see Guts fight Apostles and use his brains and intellect there, like a medieval Doom Slayer. The only times he loses his mind are when he sees Griffith again (and even that's not much of a lapse)...and when the Beast of Darkness, his inner rage takes over, and that's something Guts hates and forces down.
Not to say Guts is perfect...He gets called out for letting his revenge override his interest in Casca's safety and it does cost him, but Guts grows and evolves, learning to care for other people again...probably the worst freakout he has is when he and Casca first have sex, Guts' trauma makes him snap and he's extremely rough with a clearly unhappy Casca, before he tries to strangle her, only to break down crying, before apologizing to her and promising he'll leave forever if she wants him to...which leads to maybe the most heartwarming scene in Berserk when Casca gives him love and understanding and helps them both to be comfortable to finish together....by the end, Guts' concern for people has grown back and he freely admits he's grown to see the people about him as comrades with his desire to keep them where he can protect them.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Yes. Full stop. Period. Guts has done horrible things. He usually limits his killing to soldiers, but he killed a little boy while on an assassination mission (he didn't intend to, but it's still dirty business and Guts is the first to admit it)...he kills kidnappers working for Griffith just to shut them up. While he's reluctant to involve bystanders, Guts for a while doesn't cre much about them, and this does get people killed. Against the Slug Count he uses the guy's daughter as a shield and tortures the Count in front of the girl (The Count killed one of his best friends in the Hawks so Guts is really, REALLY fucking wrathful towards him)...and his way of making Theresia hate him enough to live is flat out abusive and cruel (which he seems to understand as he's seen almost crying after).
He uses Jill against Rosine, and has no problem killing others in his way...this said, Guts is maybe the closest to a true hero in all Berserk. Now, one time his Beast of Darkness almost makes him rape Casca, which he's horrified at...Guts' comrades mean everything to him and he once loved Griffith deeply and dearly. He loves Casca, and when he's called out on his bullshit by the Blacksmith Godo? He listens and realizes what a heel he's been. Guts has a sense of honor and his entire motive is to protect Casca and destroy Demonkind and Griffith...when Griffith reveals he feels nothing for the Hawks and Guts, despite all he's done, Guts loses it on him more than ever before. ("all the people you've killed. All you've done. And YOU DON'T FEEL A SINGLE THING!?) He's not stupid about it, though, refusing to work with a scumbag monster like Ganishka because he recognizes him for what he is...
Conclusion?
The Black Swordsman is a hell. Fucking. YES for this trope, tell me I'm wrong.
Goku Black
Guts
That was one hell of a troll. I was racking my brain to understand how exactly that would work ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Aye to Guts and Fennhoff.
For a second there, I misread this page's messages and thought you guys were saying Griffith was no MB because he failed the Bastard criteria.
The Moron
Hell YES to the Black Swordsman
Lies and Violence!
Oh, thank god. Well done, you bastard. Guts.
Agent Carter again! This character is basically the main antagonist of the show... in the sense that she's the only villain in both seasons.
The candidate
Dottie Underwood is a graduate of the Soviet Red Room program, where women are trained from childhood to be expert spies and assassins. Recruiting Johann Fennhoff into Leviathan (or, at least, holding the machine gun and standing menacingly in the corner when Fennhoff is recruited into Leviathan, so same thing), Underwood assists him in his vendetta against Howard, seducing Stark so that he'd show her the vault where he keeps his inventions. Leviathan manages to steal the weapons with this information... only for one of their agents, Leet Brannis, to betray them and make off with the inventions.
Dottie first appears as a new roommate of Peggy's at the hotel she's staying at, taking up the name "Dottie Underwood" and quickly befriending Carter. When one of the (now dead) Brannis' co-conspirators is captured, Dottie kills both him and the SSR agent driving him to jail, and when a smuggler guy sneaks in to kill Peggy (go with it) Dottie easily kills him, takes his gun and hides his body.
Dottie also takes the time to investigate Peggy's room while she's off on missions, looking for information pertaining to the inventions' locations. Peggy, as a spy, has that thing where you put a hair on top of the door to tell if someone's opened it. Dottie, also as a spy, puts the hair back on the door when she leaves.
Killing a dentists in the building across from the SSR office, Dottie makes contact with Fennhoff from the dentist's window by sending Morse code flashes... with a sniper rifle, so that if anyone sees them they'll think Dottie is trying to kill Fennhoff instead of communicate with him. Given the order to kill Peggy, Dottie knocks her out with her own poisoned lipstick, but is prevented from ending her due to the intervention of more SSR agents (who arrest Peggy thinking she's Leviathan, go with it).
Dottie meets up with Fennhoff, helping him with his plan to capture Stark and force him to unleash the Hate Plague (Dottie herself a bit miffed that Stark doesn't remember her, because of course he doesn't). She fights Peggy personally, escaping after being knocked out a window.
She makes her return in S2, captured after attempting to steal from the bank vault of the new Big Bad. She spends a few episodes in captivity, somewhat miffed that Peggy isn't the one interrogating her (Yandere much?), and making fools of pretty much everyone who tries to get the better of her. She's eventually broken out by Peggy, who needs her help to find out more about basically the Illuminati, and is given a necklace that will inject a toxin if she removes it. Dottie does pretty well as a spy, only getting caught due to dumb luck, and she puts up a hell of a fight before she's finally taken down.
Back to interrogation! Dottie again does pretty well here, until Big Bad Whitney Frost tortures her with the Darkforce. Dottie immediately gives up everything she knows, which, you know, fair. I'd balk when confronted with a sentient evil living shadow as well.
Dottie (along with Peggy and Jarvis, who have also been captured) eventually manages to escape... but is locked in the boot of the car. Nevertheless, by the time Peggy wraps up the latest crisis she finds that Dottie escaped. Never to be seen again, from our perspective at least.
Is she magnificent?
Dottie is fun, her rivalry with Peggy (plus her sort-of obsession) paints her as hammily psychotic yet not too unhinged. If that makes sense.
She's a very good spy, able to resist interrogation and torture like it's nobody's business (unless Dormammu sledge is involved), and is still out and about by end of the series.
She's also pretty unquestionably in charge between her and Fennhoff's alliance whenever they're in any immediately dangerous situations, Dottie ordering him to escape when Peggy finally catches up to them. She shows remarkable ingenuity and skill at her profession, like with the sniper rifle thing and door hair thing.
Is she a bastard?
Unrepentant assassin. Don't think that requires more explanation.
Thoughts?
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Aye to Dottie Underwood.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Goku Black
dottie
Hmm... I was skeptical at first, considering how broken he is and some of the more unsavory stuff he does, but now I'm convinced. to Guts
Hell yes to Guts.
Leaning yes on Dottie.
Yeah, Silat and Zodd...maybe 3-4 more, including maybe Griffith. We'll see how it goes.