During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Edited by Giantleviathan on Feb 26th 2021 at 11:01:02 AM
The Moron
I'm inclined to lean yes on Simula if her cool Memory Gambit outweighs her heinousness, plus it sounds like even if she does get manipulated she manages to still come out on top, but outright no to Ravvas - racism and insanity is an instant no-no, and honestly if he didn't have the moment of regret you mentioned, it sounds like he'd make a fine CM candidate. Great first EP though, especially for a double candidate!
@Lighty I don't know if you particularly care, but I potholed the two Highlander examples in the Sandbox if you want to check
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Daw thanks man 
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 26th 2021 at 11:53:34 AM
Inclined to follow STAR's reasoning on the voting there and I just saw the potholes, you did a good job bud
Honestly I find that zany flip to the heroes just cuz kind of a "fun" insanity I like for MB charm.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 26th 2021 at 11:48:29 AM
I'd disagree with the CM part. While an outright villain, he also genuinely cares for the drow, shows respect for people who died for "The cause" and has too many Pet the Dog moments to count. (He treated Kruul as an equal when everyone else looked down on him as a mutant freak, rescued Valil and Sorn from poverty and shows on multiple occasions that his word is his bond. Even before his final scene.
A monster? Absolutely. But not a COMPLETE Monster and was actually horrified by the things Simula did. (He was disgusted that she killed her own people for a game)
As for Simula, I can find the exact scene that reveals her Memory Gambit (Which is also the scene that has her sailing over the Moral Event Horizon, so good for comparison) if that will help.
Edited by Giantleviathan on Feb 26th 2021 at 8:52:26 AM
The Moron
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I mean, I wouldn't outright say "don't post it", but like I said, it's cool enough in theory and she has enough going for her that I'm already inclined to say yes to her. And fair enough, maybe I overestimated his villainy, but still no to him due to the racism aspect.
The six Warhammer keepers we have aren't racist - they might be warmongers, but they're more intelligent than they are blood knights, so they don't crack the Bastard ceiling.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 26th 2021 at 12:01:58 PM
Hmm... on that note then, just because I brought it up as a comparison, does that mean characters from Warhammer 40K should be disqualified, since they are, as a rule, genocidally racist?
Yeah, my issue was mostly his zealous nature mixing with his racism and the associate race crimes he partakes in. Simula sounds brutal but we've had keepers who have murdered their own children and she does seem like she has some fun aspects and the trying out a Heroic Sacrifice thing is very interesting.
No, a racist character from 40k would be disqualified but I don't think any of the characters we have listed are that bigoted. Hell, one is a Necron who just likes to steal things to collect them.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 26th 2021 at 11:59:06 AM
Here is my next and likely final effort post for the Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind. This one in particular will be interesting as my candidate has a very peculiar reputation among the fandom.
Who is Crassius Curio?
Crassius is one of the councilors of the dunmer Great House Hlaalu, well known for being the most pro-Empire House among the dark elves and concerned primarily with trade both legal or illegal. Crassius himself is an Imperial and the only human in any position of power in any of the Great Houses, yet ironically is one of the least corrupt as most of the rest of the House is under the thrall of the local crime syndicate, the Camonna Tong. Besides being relatively non-corrupt by Hlaalu standards, Crassius is infamous among the Elder Scrolls fandom for being hyper sexual and the series' Memetic Molester. He constantly flirts with the player, regardless of gender, always refers to them by pet names like sweeti pie and dumpling in dialogue, and wrote a few bawdy in-universe plays such as The Lusty Argonian Maid and The Dance of the Three-Legged Guar. All of this is Played for Laughs and he never actually does anything truly untoward the player character, and is more of a Chivalrous Pervert than any kind of actual sex fiend.
With his intro out of the way, let's get down to what he actually accomplishes in-game. Crassius's role in the main story is to be the player's guide into becoming the Hortator, or war leader, of House Hlaalu and is the easiest to convince. All the player has to do is give him a sufficiently large bribe, or, if his disposition is high enough, a simple kiss. Once that's done, he gives the player the run down on all the remaining Hlaalu councilors and how to convince them to name the player Hortator. He remarks that one councilor, Dram Bero, will support you if you find his hidden mansion, another is open to bribery, and the remaining two councilors are pawns of the Camonna Tong leader and will acquiesce if he is slain or convinced to help. Regardless, Crassius is vital to getting the player named Hortator and completing that stage of the main quest.
Crassius's role is greatly expanded if the player join House Hlaalu and plays an important role in cleansing the House of some of its corruption. The player is first sent to him to become their patron as no other councilor would be willing to sponsor an outlander. Crassius is quick to agree if the player...simply takes off their clothes for him. With that business out of the way, Crassius reveals that often uses his interesting personality to get others to underestimate him and uses this reputation to send the player as his agent in uncovering corruption from Odral Helvi, the governor of the mining town of Caldera. Odral uses the player to do some dirty work by having them deliver a sealed message to a mole of his to counterfeit some land deeds. When the orders are given to Crassius, he makes a copy to keep as evidence and prevents Odral from finding out the delivery never made it. Helvi will next send you to replace the fake deeds with the real ones, and Crassius again uses the opportunity to take the fake deeds and has the player give a copy of the real deed to Helvi to foil his plans. Finally, Helvi reveals the full extent of his corruption by skimming ebony from the local mine and illegally smuggling it. He has the player deliver the ebony ore to his smuggler contact, but the player instead delivers it to Crassius who in turn has it handed over to the local Imperial Legion officer who arrest Helvi and also ensures the smuggler "disappears."
The player is given a high position in House Hlaalu for their efforts and begin working for Crassius directly. Here we learn that while he isn't as corrupt as the other councilors, he is still corrupt to an extent. His first personal task is to have the player collect fees from a minor smuggler, only for the player to discover the smuggler is smuggling dangerous artifacts for Dagoth Ur, the Big Bad, and Crassius orders the smuggler eliminated when he discovers this as even he is taken aback. Crassius next has the player gain the support of the elusive councilor Dram Bero by tracking him down to his hidden mansion and defeating his champion in a duel, earning a strong ally for yourself and Crassius. Finally, Crassius has you assassinate two rivals from House Redoran and Telvanni to prove yourself to the Hlaalu Grandmaster Vedam Dren. Once his last missions are complete, Crassius sends you off to work for the Grandmaster in finally ridding House Hlaalu of its ties to the Camonna Tong.
Is he magnificent?
As I mentioned before, Crassius Curio has a very strong personality and is a very memorable character because of it. Despite how such a character might be presented, he comes across as more humorous and charming than anything. To an extent, his wildly sexual characteristics are also shown to played up to get everyone else to dismiss him as a Dirty Old Man Bunny-Ears Lawyer when in truth he's a Chivalrous Pervert Reasonable Authority Figure who's trying to cut out the very worst aspects of corruption from his notoriously corrupt House. This intelligence is shown in-game through his missions to uncover Odral Helvi's ebony smuggling and engineering his subsequent arrest.
Is he a bastard?
Of course, corrupt is relative. He is far less corrupt than his peers, not being in the pocket of a horrible xenophobic crime syndicate, but still shows shades of corruption by collecting fees from a minor smuggler and potentially accepting bribes to name a complete stranger as war leader of House Hlaalu. Then there's the house war quests where he has you murder rival house members in their homes to eliminate competition. Thus, Crassius has just enough loose morals in my opinion to cross over into bastard territory.
Any mitigating factors?
Well, let's talk about his Memetic Molester reputation. He is infamous for being a Dirty Old Man to the fandom but he never actually does anything to perverse that is ever shown or implied. The very worse thing he does is ask for a kiss and to see you naked once. All this along with his dialogue is entirely played for laughs and is never truthfully shown in a creepy light. In this instance, I believe his perverted qualities add to his charm instead of making him a creep and negating it.
Final Verdict?
I think he makes it, but I'm sure Scraggle can back me up on how he's presented in and out of universe.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Gotta love Jaws!
The Moron
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Curio
Yes to Crassius! You weren't lying, that EP did not fail to entertain!
Actually with 40k? Even the one keeper we wound up cutting, Vect, vile as he was, isn't a racist to my knowledge, he just... loves torturing everyone to death.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 26th 2021 at 12:18:18 PM
@43110 I'm pretty sure the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Eldar see all other races as inferior. It's even noted on Eldrad Uthran's page that he has killed millions of humans to save 10'000 Eldar.
I'm actually surprised that Simula seems a better candidate. Since I thought killing your own child was WORSE than being a racist zealot on the "Vile and Heinousness" scale.
One is being a dickhead. The other is worth multiple life sentences at best.
But then, I'm someone who believes Stalin was worse than Hitler.
But this actually gives me thought for another effort post for a character that Word of God says directly inspired Simula:
What is the work?
Sherlock is a 2010 tv adaptation of the classic book series made by Stephen Moffat that places the famous characters in the modern day
Who is the character? What do they do?
James "Jim" Moriarty is a consulting criminal who arranges for unsolvable crimes to be commited for a price. Having amassed an almost untouchable crime empire, Moriarty has become near suicidally bored at being surrounded by people so far beneath him intellectually that they may as well be literal puppets. When he learns about the titular Sherlock, Moriarty develops an almost childlike glee at matching wits with the detective to keep him from his utter boredom.
Are they Magnificent?
Moriarty is what would have happened if Sherlock decided to commit crimes instead of solving them. He is resourceful, audacious, utterly fearless, creative, and such a good actor that one infamous scene where he pretends to be an "actor" who "Sherlock hired to pretend to be a criminal mastermind", his performance was so convincing that a fan on This Very Wiki described the scene as "The moment Sherlock fans doubted their very existence."
Can they think on their feet?
Moriarty is so unpredictable, so "changeable" as he puts it, that even when he is absolutely backed into a corner, his unfettered desire to win at all costs means he can NEVER be underestimated.
"As long as I'm alive, you can save your friends. You've got a way out."
(*Beat*)
"Well, good luck with that." (shoots himself.)
What's the competition like?
He plays Sherlock, the police, the courts, the news media (Okay, so THAT parts not that impressive 
) and even the British Government like fiddles throughout the first two seasons.
Are they a Bastard?
Dear god. YES. Moriarty treats everything like some stage performance and that gives him a twisted... creative sense of cruelty. He is first introduced by strapping innocent civilians (including a terrified old woman, Watson and even a child) to bombs and communicating through his crying victims by asking him to read out the EXACT words he pages them, killing them if they deviate. He poisons to children by leaving in a sweet factory where the wrappers are all laced with mercury as another "puzzle" for Sherlock to solve, and threatens to murder everyone Sherlock loves if Sherlock doesn't commit suicide. Moriarty has such an utter disregard for human life that he not only seems to treat human beings as mere animals:
"Maybe I should get a live in one."
But seems out-right ANNOYED when people bring up the lives he has killed.
"People have died."
"That's what people DO!!!"
Final verdict?
As one of my favourite villains, a HARD yes for me. Honestly, I thought he'd be too evil to qualify, but if Simula can count, I would say that's strong contention for the villain who inspired her.
Edited by Giantleviathan on Feb 26th 2021 at 9:31:14 AM
I'm saying no. Moriarty is a sadistic, psychopathic manchild.
Also, Eldrad isn't necessarily racist. He values his own species above others, which is an Eldar thing. He's not out there, sneeringly trying to genocide humans. He'll work with them, he just values his own race as they're on the verge of extinction
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Moffat!Moriarty. He's a great villain, but not this trope.
"Also, Eldrad isn't necessarily racist. 'He values his own species above others, which is an Eldar thing. He's not out there, sneeringly trying to genocide humans. He'll work with them, he just values his own race as they're on the verge of extinction"
Am I... using the term Racist wrong then? Because I thought that WAS racism and that honestly applies to Ravvas too. He has worked with the other races in an Enemy Mine sense. Respects the heroes (All of whom are non-Drow) as Worthy Opponents, and even confesses in a moment of weakness that he had come to regard them as friends. He's "Racist" in that he values Drow lives above all other lives and believes in absolute loyalty to such a degree that he has convinced himself that if he doesn't make the Drow the unquestioned rulers of all races, if he DARES to allow compromise, then he would be a "Failure" and a "Traitor". To his absolutist, Realpolitik thinking, this means Genocide as he sees it as a "Them or us."
So not Umbridge's sneering condescion. more Redcloak's "My Species Above All Others"
Wanting to preserve your own dying race at the expense of others is not disqualifying, not sure how much clearer I can make this.
Eldrad is not racist and I'm saying no to Moriarty just like the other times he was proposed by you... he's a sadistic asshole, I don't care about his intelligence at that point, there's zero refinement to his "charm" in any manner. Can we please stop coming back to him every couple of years?
So, if it was a character from an abused and dying race that had been raised from birth to see all other species as inferior and the enemy, that would not be disqualifying?
@43110. Okay. But if Moriarty doesn't count. Then Simula doesn't count. Take it from someone who actually followed that series. She too is a "Sadistic asshole".
I mean literally the only reason I brought him back up was because your said above:
"Oh yeah. Sadistic mass-murderers who kill for their entertainment are just the right kind of fun for an MB!![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
"
Edited by Giantleviathan on Feb 26th 2021 at 9:54:31 AM
These are two separate subjects I'd like to make clear: Eldrad is not racist, he wants the Eldar to survive and will make sacrifices to do so, he does not commit race crimes; the other character does... this comparison doesn't work.
Do not try these "gotchas" on me... one character being based off another does not make them a carbon copy of the former. Drop this attitude now.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 26th 2021 at 12:54:07 PM
If Moffat!Moriarty keeps getting brought up, should we add him to the NA list?
Alright Giant... do what you want. Not quite sure why you feel inclined to quote people while making up things they didn't actually say though every second post...
@ Imp, I'm not sure, there's only one person who really wants him listed and this only seems to happen once a year or so.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 26th 2021 at 12:58:06 PM
@43 How many times is that now? I mean I haven’t been around for any of the times he’s been discussed before though. I probably figured he was always too cruel or petty to count just based on things I’d heard.
@Giant You need candidate ideas?
It sounds a little from what I can tell that unlike Killmonger, it’s a racial issue that’s fleshed out and refined way more given the clear desire to preserve.
I’m wondering if the Colonel from Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron can count. Anyone have any opinions on that?
Hey guys, I just finished an exam, what’s this about getting high?
(Just know that I chose the time of my exam and took it online, don’t worry.)
Looks back at the last several pages. Huh, that’s happening. I don’t really have anything to add.