During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
He's a gruffish Anti-Hero but beyond goblins he only kills people attacking him or his friends. The thing I really can't stress enough here: it was one line that their might be a good goblin, with zero further indication to back up the possibility. It would be like putting up Rache if he just killed the Great Old Ones and had nothing on bringing threatening purges down on fellow humans.
No problem on bringing him up Imp and as I've said that all could change if we start getting heroic goblins and the work figures out a way to coincide his hatred of what the race did to his sister and their newfound moral complexity. If someone else wants to look at it that's fine but he did have a harsh teacher growing up who put him through literally deadly training to make him a warrior... that dude could be worth a look!
Edited by 43110 on Feb 22nd 2021 at 3:23:47 PM
Woagh
Damn, this guy sounds more like a role model then a Bastard.
On another note (I know jack shit about this Manga), how many votes does a quote need again?
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Feb 22nd 2021 at 12:23:20 PM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Gotta love Jaws!
So the impression I'm getting here is that he's justifiably ruthless towards goblins, but nothing but good towards innocent people, correct?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Okay, yep no bastardry there then.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Feb 22nd 2021 at 12:26:04 PM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Quotes we've just kinda unofficially been going by if most people like them (for the record I do) and GS is like... well he's got No Social Skills and again, can be gruff but he's looking out to protect people, never sacrificing a few to save more or anything like that.
I had a whole rant, but I can safely say that with what's given he does not count.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
43: I hope you don't mind but I added a link to Disney page on the Magnificent Bastard Video Games sandbox. After bringing it up here. I thought it might save you some work. Sorry if I overstepped my bounds.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 22nd 2021 at 2:28:59 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
That said, Goblin Slayer doesn't count, in any shape nor form.
"I SHALL UNIFY THE WORLD! FROM ALPHA TO OMEGA... BOW DOWN TO ME!!!"
Not at all Bull! Very helpful!
Also thanks mir! Got it!
Edited by 43110 on Feb 22nd 2021 at 3:32:53 PM
Question: can we add our MB entrees to the designated YMMV page ourselves once our candidate is approved or should we just leave them in drafts and wait for another user to add it?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I’d be for the tropers just doing that themselves.
That said, I understand that sticking to a less hectic process might be the better option though if it’s decided we just stick to things as they are.
Goku Black
My next The Librarians 2014 example. I give you The Heavy and The Dragon of season 2: professor James Moriarty.
Who is Professor James Moriarty?
Upon the release of magic back into the world, the powerful fictional Prospero found his powers returned to him. A fictional is a character from fiction who is able to come to life, Prospero originating from The Tempest itself. Propsero wants to reconsolidate his powers from the drowned book and broken staff and to do that brings Moriarty to life to achieve it whose intellect he knows is the only way to achieve it.
A charming, dashing Evil Brit and gentlemen, Moriarty has a plan. He takes over a museum and organizes that the various artifects needed to re-empower Propsero are brought here. Having them secretly stolen from the guests and implied to have knocked off the Museum's head to be in charge. Anyway the librarians attend and Moriarty under his alias flirts with Eve having gained an affection of sorts for her which gets Flynn jealous. Flynn discovers the ideas of the fictionals being here but Moriarty is able to cover for himself by pretending to be sherlock holmes instead. Eve and Flynn eventually catch on and capture him but he resists any attempt to get information from him and reveals he has figured through the Sherlock Scan that they are librarians. They go to stop Propsero and Moriarty is able to escape. They do recover the drowned book though....Just as Planned.
The book contains both Moriarty and Propsero allowing them to infiltrate's the library. Their trying to go to the lowest level and find a branch from the tree of knowledge to reforge a new staff of power. Moriarty deduces that Jenkins is Galahad immediatly through analysis and has him lock the libray. Propsero then freezes him and sends minions to slow the heroes down. Eve and Flynn get Propsero's pendant away from him which contains Ariel. Moriarty convinces Eve that he'll giver her a truce and just leave if she gives it back to him as he'll be in trouble with propsero without it. She relents and both are beaten back.
Anyway Moriarty returns looking for the staff of zarathusa as a replacment staff of power for propsero. He is hutning flynn and the library which are searching for it. He convinces Eve that hell help her find Flynn and in retunr they use the staff to set him free. On the road, they discuss life as well as the fact that Moriarty truly wants to be free. His builders and planners conversation
- Moriarty: Come now, Duchess. No need to be so stiff. I wager you'll quite like me once you scratch below the surface.
- Eve: [Scoffs] Well... First... [Clears throat] I'm kind of seeing someone.
- Moriarty: "Kind of"? Hmm.
- Eve: Am seeing someone who's not fictional. Second, I'm not really in the bad guy business.
- Moriarty: "Bad guy"? Relative term. Holmes and I were almost partners, you know? Uh-huh. He turned you down? No. No, I didn't want to work with him. You've read the stories... never settling, flitting from case to case. Always running... running, running from himself, running from boredom. No, I wanted to build something.
- Eve: Oh, you built a criminal empire.
- Moriarty: Because that's all they would let me build. I ask you, what would you do if they wouldn't let you breathe? If they wouldn't let you open any door? You would make your own. Precisely. Both your world and mine, there are those of us who run and those who build. You and I? We're planners. Strategists. We're builders, in for the long haul.
Anyway as planned the staff is too powerful for flynn and the library tol hold, they have to give it to Moriarty who as a fictional is functionally immortal. He planned this as a way to get the staff for Prospero. Without having to lift a finger. Not bad.
Anyway Moriarty asks propsero for a boon to trap the librarians in a fantasy world to save them from the coming attempt to prospero to remake the world into a forest. This fails due to flynn making them break the illusion.
Anyway Flynn and Eve time travel to the creation of prospero to try and retrive his staff before its broken and use it to defeat him in the present. Moriarty convinces Propsero to send him to "stop them".
Instead he saves them from some rando guards and quotes the terminator: "Come with me if you want to live?"
He then is able to infiltrate's where shakespeare is and attempts an assaination to destroy Propsero. He is stopped and Flynn end up in his company where they find Shakespeare's pen is a branch from the tree of knowledge which transforms him into Propsero by having his ID come to life and take over. They free Moriarty and set out beating him for good, Moriarty is able to trick Propsero into briefly leaving the book and staff as they need to be drowned and broken to destroy his powers. He does this by telling him hes a time traveller and loyal minion of his whose come from the future and it distracts him enough that flynn is able to take the book away. He passes it to eve who drowns it but Prospero it to drown eve...Moriarty in a fury at his lost love stabs at prospero and is mortally wounded but hey a mastermind still has one last card up his sleeve. In his final words, he tells Flynn that the Shakespeare's pen is what was used to create Propsero so could be used to destroy him in the present. Flynn defeats past Propsero using excalibur and leaves clues as well as the pen to the librarians in the present who use it to permantly destroy a screaming prospero for good and save Shakespeare.
Magnificent ?
Hes elegant, sophisticated and dashing. Plus cool like all moriarty's should be. He manipulates events to allow Propsero's ascension, effortlessly analyses people and finds their weaknesses to exploit, retrived the staff in a simple yet elegant method of trickery and ultimately brings down Propsero. I would argue he overshadows his boss who quite brilliant in his own right and having a third mb Shakespeare would be amazing is ultimately falls to much to breakdowns when things go wrong and is utterly trounced and deceived by his second in command. Among Dragons, he is the most intelligent and competant in the franchise by a longshot.
Bastard?
Meh hes not super evil by Librarian standards and is actually perhaps one of the most noble and less evil versions of Moriarty in media but yeah. Kills and manipulates people, helps jenkins get turned into a popsicule and tries to kill shakespeare to stop Propsero's rise despite him being a decent guy. Still hes also noble, genuinely loves Eve to the point of dying for her.
Conclusion?
Well what do you guys think.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 22nd 2021 at 2:26:35 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Gotta love Jaws!
I'd be fine with it but knowing me I might forget lol.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Moriarty.
This Moriarty looks like a keep. Great find, mir!
I'll add a link to the Tales page on video games too.
Edit: Kudos to whoever did it already!
Edited by Klavice on Feb 22nd 2021 at 2:30:11 AM
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
Yes to another Moriarty!
@ Looper, Just to be sure you don't get in trouble lmk here or PM me when the page becomes a thing and I'll add it for you 
Edited by 43110 on Feb 22nd 2021 at 5:41:24 AM
to Moriarty. I wonder if any versions of Irene Adler might qualify.
Whoops, already added it. I'll PM you about it next time.
Goku Black
We already have one. She's combined with Moriarty their
Though I was thinking of her Kim Newman version. She was mentored by his version of Eric the phantom whose already up.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Moriarty. Love that show.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Goku Black
Oh hey you watch too. Can I pm you who I think also might count with dulaque and moriarty up.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Sure go ahead. And yeah I was a huge fan of the films which led me to watch the show, which I love. Though it's been a while since I watched, I know it quite well.
Eh, no harm as long as you think the mods will be able to figure it was just a good faith add Looper.
The Moron
I've added a few on my own before (Sgt. Barnes most recently), and people don't seem to question it as long as you link to the thread in the reasons. Plus, I've waited until it left the drafts to add it, so it would already be on the main sandboxes.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 22nd 2021 at 6:14:40 AM
I think it helps to add the note of Approved by thread and then the mods can ask you since you lead the charge on the trope (or refer to the thread itself). That’s a possibility.
Which writeup are pending by the way? I noticed Morgen didn’t do The Mouse yet.
Goblin Slayer is a straight up hero whose flaw is he's too dedicated to what he does which is detrimental to his wellbeing and mental health. The series portraying his ongoing genocide as 100 percent the right thing but also making it so he never sacrifices a companion, recognizes his shortcomings, goes out of is way to rescue innocents and protect others whenever he finds them obliterates the bastard criteria.