During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
I really need to watch this show. It really sounds great.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Fad.
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Fad as well! Love it!
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Hex and Fad.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Hex, Fad, the Boss who does a boss like a boss
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
By the way I won't be here tomorrow. It's a relatives of mine's birthday. I am going to spend the day with him and some others at his house. Yes we will be social distancing. So don't worry.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 21st 2021 at 9:51:53 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Susjection!
The Magnificent Bastard entry for Erwin Smith on YMMV.Attack On Titan was just edited. Was that edit approved here?
The Moron
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm confident that it wasn't. Looks like whoever it was made a small edit on the CM entry as well.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, not a huge deal, but thanks for bringing it here.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 21st 2021 at 11:05:46 AM
Just a correction for a name, no big
Ultimate Moral Compass
All the Bebop candidates I've missed. One of the few anime I own on DVD, and one of the greatest in the medium of animation as a whole.
RIP Toriyama
Alright, not having the greatest night so let's have some fun with a carryover collab from the CM thread...again betweenst myself and Jackie!
What's the work?
Buzz Lightyear of Star Command is a late 90s animated series that takes the classic character from the Toy Story franchise and posits the question of what the Space Ranger's adventures would have looked like if he was actually, truly an intergalactic hero.
And so we get our show, starring Patrick Warburton in the lead role taking over from actor of the films Tim Allen. We follow Buzz and his close-knit team—badass phase shifter Mira, dorky buffoon Booster, and robot nerd XR—as they face down the many evils of the galaxy, primarily in the form of Evil Emperor Zurg....and also his right hand man.
Who is Warp Darkmatter? What makes him a candidate?
Warp Darkmatter, voiced by the brilliant Diedrich Bader, is the darkly suave, snarky, badass top agent to Evil Emperor Zurg, functioning as the guy Zurg calls in when he needs things done properly.
At the start of the series, Warp has been playing Star Command and Buzz Lightyear himself for years. Using his status as a top cadet for the Space Rangers, Warp sold his insight and skills to Zurg for a hefty fee, becoming The Mole and regularly taking advantage of his position as a Space Ranger to secretly supply Zurg with info, weapons, and other commodities, even while serving directly alongside Buzz as his partner.
Eventually staging his own death in the pilot movie after obtaining valuable info from the Space Rangers' partners the LGMs (Little Green Men), Warp becomes a full-time operative for Zurg, dubbed "Agent Z" and equipped with a robotic arm and hella cool armor. Warp leads an attack of the LGM homeworld that he pulls off brilliantly, stealing away the powerful "Unimind" that ties all LGMs together while simultaneously outdoing Buzz in combat with trickery and tactics, even twisting Buzz's attempt at a taunt back on him: "You're good. But I'm better."
Later dueling Buzz, Warp unmasks himself and takes advantage of Buzz's surprise that he's alive sucker punch and capture him. Savvily shooting down all of Buzz's attempts to explain his turn to villainy, Warp simply states being bad pays better, hilariously noting "My name is DARKMATTER, who's surprised, here?"
Though beaten by the arrival of Buzz's new team, Warp escapes capture and becomes a recurring threat throughout the show. Routinely called in by Zurg to carry out jobs, Warp is pretty much always successful to some degree, only ever failing at his tasks thanks to Buzz and his team standing in his way. Even then, Warp outdoes fellow bounty hunters who try to upstage him in front of Zurg, wreaks havoc on Capital Planet's electrical infastructure by masterfully sneaking past its security, and manages to capture individual members of Buzz's team at various times throughout the series with use of traps or just badass competence.
In the episode "Tag Team", Warp actually sets aside his differences with Buzz to work together on finding out why both of them have strange microchips implanted in their necks. The two combine their own inherent skills to find the source of the implants—the hyper intelligent Chlorm race—and though captured, they end up rescuing one another to escape and outwit the Chlorms. In a humorous bit, Buzz calls out Warp as still having good in him for going out of his way to save Buzz in their escape...Warp bluntly proclaims he only saved Buzz because their escape vehicle is driven with a stick shift, and Warp doesn't know how to drive one ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
In his final appearance in the series, Warp is sent by Zurg to awaken the ancient evil mummy Natron. When Natron drains Warp of his youth and nearly kills him, Warp—despite his hilarious new senility—allies with Buzz and comes up with a tactical strike against Natron that saves an entire planet from his evil while resourcefully restoring Warp's youth to him. In a moment of complete, undeniable honor, Warp saves Buzz from an attack by Natron, remarking that he "owed" Buzz before leaving the scene to continue his bounty hunter career, Buzz not even bothering to chase him to serve as a show of respect betweenst them.
Lastly, Warp's so good at his job that he literally bought an entire moon paradise getaway to himself that he regularly retreats to, even if he has to fake a cold to convince Zurg to give him a personal day
Is Warp magnificent?
As the villainous mirror to Buzz? Warp is confident, hilarious, badass, and backs it all up completely with competence and a snarky, laid-back demeanor. He does get panicked when he's restrained and in serious danger, notably in the pilot movie where he humorously drops the badass personality to whine demandingly at fleeing minions of Zurg's to help him escape Space Ranger capture while all of them ignore him, but it's all done for humor and Warp regularly puts his neck on the line in other scenarios, so a coward he is not.
Only real issue is that Warp does have humiliating moments here and there—a big one being his defeat in one episode revolving his own "devolving" spray being turned on him due to a freak accident, and him becoming a caveman-like dumbdumb who the characters laugh at—but I'm honestly willing to give good ol' Warp leeway on this. The show is built on campy, over the top fun, and pretty much every damn villain in the series goes through humiliating defeats of some sort for the sake of comedy...Warp stands out as being played seriously 95% of his screentime, and he's always right back into his swaggering coolness by the next episode, even ending the series on an all time high as he outwits Natron, saves Buzz, and ends the show as a Noble Demon. For one on the most recurring baddies in the show, Warp avoids a ton of pitfalls the rest of the Rogues' Gallery go into, and is always charming, cunning and competent above all else.
Is Warp a bastard?
Indeed, Warp's one of the more villainous characters in the whole show. He's fully onboard with Zurg's plan to try to override the wills of every living thing in the galaxy with Zurg's, he routinely threatens the lives of the Space Rangers, and in one of his more personally wicked moments, he uses a "devolving" spray to subjugate an entire planet and use them as a labor force to mass produce weapons for Zurg.
Nevertheless, Warp has standards and a bit of honor, has a level of Friendly Enemy with Buzz, and isn't nearly the worst the series has to offer, with the likes of Zurg, NOS-4-A2, Evil!Buzz, and even a few one-shot baddies threatening far worse than anything Warp gets up to.
Final Verdict?
I'd give Warp a Yes.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Susjection!
The edit changed multiple entries, the Magnificent Bastard entry was one of the entries caught in that edit, and it was Hange's name that was corrected, not Erwin's; the edit to Erwin's entry was the fourth change in that edit. This is what I'm referring to
Notifier sent.
Edited by Kevjro7 on Feb 21st 2021 at 8:34:31 AM
Yes to Metal Gear Boss, Hex, Fad, and Warp (been meaning to watch this sometime).
It wasn't approved, but it seems like a minor change meant to improve the flow. I'll defer to 43110 on whether to keep it or not. In any event, the editor should be notified to bring such things through here next time.
Aye there, too.
Edited by DocSharp on Feb 21st 2021 at 8:29:18 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Warp
And now for my Buzz Lightyear candidate, one who only appears in a single episode.
The episode we’re discussing is “Star Crossed”. It primarily deals with Zurg dealing with an escaped scientist of his who defected to Star Command. Zurg hires a bounty hunter willing to do whatever it takes to bring him back his scientist.
But honestly, he couldn’t have picked a better bounty hunter.
Who is He?
Romac is a Tangean “Grounder” (i.e. low class peasant) turned bounty hunter whose motto is “I never quit a job till it's finished. Never.”
What does he do?
Previously Mira’s boyfriend back when she was the teenage princess of Tangea, Romac saved her from muggers after she escaped her palace to explore the outside world. Forming a romantic relationship with her, once Mira’s father caught on, he banned the two from ever being together with each other, leading to Romac becoming a bounty hunter who longs for the days of being by Mira's side.
Hired by Zurg to retrieve his escaped scientist Brain Pod 57 for 3 million unibucks, Romac makes the evil emperor pay him 10 million in advance. Arriving on Tradeworld and easily capturing 57, once the rangers give chase (or should I say flight?), Romac destroys several buildings, using the falling rubble as a way to slow them down. With only Buzz now chasing after him, Romac forms an alliance with 57, having him assist in easily knocking out and capturing Buzz to be brought to Zurg alongside 57.
Handing over 57 and a comatose Buzz to an ecstatic Zurg, Romac is asked by 57 if his job is complete. After Romac tells him ‘yes’, 57 hands him 1 unibuck with the task of freeing him and Buzz from Zurg, an offer that Romac gladly takes up because he never quits a job until it’s finished. Never. Double-crossing Zurg, Romac’s escape plan is halted by Zurg’s henchmen and the arrival of Team Lightyear. Telling Mira that he switched sides because of her, everybody manages to board her Star Command ship.
But that sense of hope is short-lived, as Zurg arrives with a large army of robots. Romac takes one of Mira’s jetpacks and tells everyone else to go on without him. Romac proceeds to easily lay waste to Zurg’s men, until he’s shot down by one of Zurg’s men. Zurg tells him that he’s lost, but Romac smiles, knowing that he’s actually won; after all, Mira, 57, and the rest are all free from Zurg’s clutches.
Afterwards, 57 reveals via a CD he leaves behind that Romac miraculously escaped Zurg’s clutches without a scratch and made him his new sidekick. Romac shows up on the CD telling Mira that even though they’ve changed, he’ll do whatever he can to win her back. After all, he never quits a job until it’s finished. Never.
Is he charming? Intelligent? Able to think on his feet?
Romac is a genuinely polite man who was able to easily escape the clutches of not only Star Command, but also Zurg, despite being cornered by the latter.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
Make no mistake that Romac is a freelance bounty hunter willing to work with people like Zurg to make money, and will destroy buildings just to buy himself some escape time. He’s like Boba Fett in that regard.
But with all that said, Romac genuinely loves Mira, and at one point he saves a child’s life after the boy almost dies from one of Romac’s own explosions.
The competition?
Romac’s only in this one episode, so he doesn’t have much compared to the likes of Warp. But Romac manages to carry his own thanks to his honor, morals, and quick thinking. He oozes charm, and it helps that it’s all genuine.
Verdict?
Easy keeper, and I want to thank Ravok for bringing me on this nostalgia-ride through an early part of my childhood.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Feb 21st 2021 at 8:27:10 AM
"No running in the halls!"
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to the Lightyear Duo.
Feels good, don't it?
RIP Toriyama
Indeed an easy Keep for Romac, and the pleasure was all mine, bud!
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Fad, Warp, and Romac.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Feb 21st 2021 at 1:32:54 PM
to Romac
I remember that pilot episode. Childhood nostalgia... I used to have it on VHS. What's that's you ask? Google it. Anyway I remember Warp panicking, but as you say given other episodes I saw over the years he seems to have it together there. So I'd say he's recovered. Warp. Yes to Romac as well.
Buzz be takin' over both threads Yes to both, great work lads!
@ Erwin edits: I agree they should be sent a notifier as a heads up but otherwise I'm with Doc, if it was a good faith effort to improve flow I don't have an issue with it.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 21st 2021 at 12:30:00 PM
That was also a great episode. I don't think there are any bad episodes of Bebop...![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Fad.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 21st 2021 at 6:52:52 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid