During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Gabriel! I like how he went from archangel to talented trickster.
Might have asked this already, but do we have the Christian God up as a MB? Like in a work besides the Bible? I know we HAVE God-like figures, but what about Him?
Edited by Klavice on Oct 8th 2020 at 1:10:57 AM
None to my knowledge.
I am giving a strong yes to Gabe
I would be very iffy about that. I admit I'm also iffy about Haman being a CM, but god often orders genocides, if you read the text. He can also be very petty about how he punishes people for wronging him.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The Abrahamic God is very unlikely to count here because by His very nature, it means that despictions of Him would be either 1) Too heroic to count or 2) Too Evil to count, and even if you have a weird case where the Abrahamic God is morally iffy but not totally evil, He rarely will get characterization. You'll be more likely to get a Priest or an angel.
I came here to reserve the Accel World VS Sword Art Online crossover game, I found someone who seems like capable of counting (a original character from that game, I am currently reading Accel World and there are also possible keepers there but let's wait as well)
Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 8th 2020 at 3:37:38 AM
Watch me destroying my country
The Draftsman of Doom
Not to mention the problems inherent with trying to make a case for an omniscient, omnipotent character.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Gabriel, btw.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Oct 8th 2020 at 1:31:40 AM
Yes to Gabriel.
Kaz do you wanna maybe vote while you're doing one of your many sudden appearences to just tell us your opinion about whatever post happens to grab your attention and then go off about what you wanna take claim of?
We've already had conversations about God and why it would be difficult for a version to count... we don't need restated points being brought up like new info we all needed to hear.
Edited by 43110 on Oct 8th 2020 at 4:40:45 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
The Dragon
Here's Gabriel.
- Supernatural: Gabriel is the youngest of the four Archangels who chose to leave Heaven, taking up the mantle of the trickster god Loki. Serving as a recurring foe of the Winchesters, Gabriel outwits them several times before allying with them against the monstrous Lucifer. Seemingly killed by Lucifer, Gabriel gives crucial information to Sam and Dean that results in Lucifer's defeat. Revealed to have faked his death, Gabriel was sold out to the Prince of Hell Asmodeus by the real Loki, later getting his flair back and incinerating Asmodeus, taking his revenge on Loki, and helping the Winchesters rescue their mother and surrogate son Jack from the Apocalypse World, even sacrificing his life to allow them to safely make it back to their world. With a chaotic, yet poetic sense of humor, and a respect for humanity that set him apart from his fellow Archangels, Gabriel stood out as one of the most hilarious, yet craftiest characters in the series.
Place him between Azazel and Crowley.
Edited by TiMBer1566 on Oct 8th 2020 at 2:02:06 AM
to Vizla and Gabriel.
The Draftsman of Doom
This is going to be the second weirdest EP I have ever done in the MB thread.
What is the work?
Set It Up is a Rom Com about 2 Beleaguered Assistants who set their bosses up to loosen up their schedules.
Who are Harper Moore and Charlie Young? How do they operate?
Charlie is the Beleaguered Assistant to Rick Otis, who, when Rick's dinner does not arrive, buys the meal meant for Harper and her boss, Kirsten Stevens. Harper, herself a Beleaguered Assistant, doesn't have enough cash to pay for the meal, but manages to negotiate with Charlie to split the meal, trading barbs as they go their separate ways.
The next day, Harper reimburses Charlie for the food, and after a drunken discussion about their hectic work lives, where harper jokes that the bosses need to get laid, Harper eventually comes up with the idea of "cyrano-ing" Rick and Kirsten, with Charlie joining forces with Harper after much hesitation.
They initially engineer a "meet cute" in an elevator by bribing the operator, which goes awry when a deliveryman suffers bladder incontinence while in the elevator with Rick and Kirsten.
They subsequently arrange for Rick and Kirsten to kiss at Yankee Stadium.
From there, Charlie and Harper use a combination of schedule manipulation, well timed idea planting (the longer you don't call, the smaller your dick), gifts, and planning a weekend getaway for the couple.
When Charlie and Harper's respective dates sour, Charlie accompanies harper to an engagement party, subsequently eating pizza with her on a fire escape.
The machinations culminate in an engagement between Rick and Kirsten.
However, Rick lets slip to Charlie that he (Rick) is cheating on Kirsten with his ex wife, Kiki, a fact Charlie conceals from Harper. Unfortunately for Charlie, Harper overhears Rick having phone sex with Kiki.
Charlie and Harper have words, where Harper realizes that she has severe misgivings about what she and Charlie have pulled off, and Charlie accuses Harper of being complacent as an assistant.
Harper summons the courage to unravel the conspiracy to Kirsten, only to be dismissed from her job when Kirsten does not believe her.
Charlie discovers that Harper no longer works for Kirsten when he tries to apologize.
Harper, meanwhile, is moping at home, until her roommate, Becca, gives her a rousing speech inspiring her to write a first draft, no matter how terrible it is.
After a disastrous date at a steakhouse, where he dumps Suze, Charlie confronts Rick, then manages to convince Kirsten to dump Rick.
Later, when Harper is rehired, Kirsten arranges for Charlie and Harper to meet up, and they realize that they were themselves a suitable match.
Are they charismatic and intelligent? Is there competition?
They manipulate their bosses' schedules over an extended period of time, planting ideas in their heads.
They are both charming in an awkward and somewhat dorky way.
As for competition, Kirsten eventually repays Charlie and Harper for their manipulations by setting them up together.
Are they morally flexible?
Manipulating two people into a relationship to free one's schedule, and to keep/advance one's career, is potentially morally grey territory. The film does present it as a breach of ethics.
Are they too smug, vile or petty?
They have their moments of doing things to spite others, but it only really amounts to Poke the Poodle level stuff, such as Charlie accompanying Harper to an engagement party to get back at his girlfriend Suze for her disloyalty, and an earlier scene where he cons Harper out of a pickle. Harper herself does engage in name-calling along with Charlie, but again, Poke the Poodle. And they both have armour piercing statements towards each other at points.Are there other mitigating factors?
There are some bawdy moments and lines, like Charlie sitting in his underwear and a dress shirt, or off colour jokes about fetal alcohol syndrome. There is also a scene where a man suffers from bladder incontinence in an elevator, played for cringe comedy. Also, Charlie is mistaken for a homophobe at the baseball game.
Additionally, there are moments where Charlie acts annoyed by Duncan and Harper acting chummy.
As for the pawns/bosses? Rick is a Manchild of a Mean Boss, but Kirsten, while abrasive and tough, is still looking out for her employees.
Verdict?
I can be convinced of Charlie more than Harper, but I have my doubts.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 8th 2020 at 5:32:58 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
You PM’d this to me but I didn’t get to respond before you put it up. Parts of it are hard to follow (Rick was cheating on someone or someone else was?) I don’t really see what’s bastardly about them though, setting your bosses up to date so you get it easier is pretty mild.
The Draftsman of Doom
Rick was cheating on Kirsten.
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
In that case covering it up is still seriously light for bastard and for both of them I don't really get the feeling they're planners in control, more like things spin out of control for the sake of comedy and it all comes together in the end for a positive finish rather than something they saw through by intent.
That and as I said over the PM's, judging by the trope page both Kristen and Rick are jerks. So I'm leaning ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
. There actions are selfish but I don't think they're scummy enough.
The Draftsman of Doom
Whelp. The effortpost was a total waste of time, but at least I had an excuse to watch the movie again.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I'd rather not go out of my way to have a Rom-Com candidate, but thanks for the suggestion.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 8th 2020 at 6:00:25 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Eh. Worth a shot. Going forward if you’re looking for candidates from these sorts of films you’ll wanna see the characters doing things like stealing or risking other people’s jobs to be dark enough.
No to Charlie and Harper.
Not a genre you'll catch me near but just a suggestion as you seem to enjoy doing them Sky.
Okay, after talking this series through in Complete Monster thread, here is it in here
What's The Work?
Mystery Trackers is the long running series of hidden object games from Elephant Games, who makes this sort of stuff. Consisted of 18 games at the moment, the series follows the agent of the titular Mystery Trackers organization, who investigates supernatural stuff. While nearly all antagonists are either way too vile, petty, smug or sometimes revealed to be not antagonists at all, there is one candidate i would like to discuss, he comes from the very first game.
Mystery Trackers: The Void is the very first game in the series, which follows the first case of the Detective as she inveestiagtes the dissaperance of three celebrities in the Void Mansion.
You can watch the walkthrough of the main game here.
Here is the complete walkthrough of the bonus chapter:
My candidate is the apparent villain of the main game, who evolves into a possible MB in the bonus chapter - Sirius Void aka Malleus Void.
Who Is Sirius Void? What Has He Done?
In reality a second evil personality of Malleus Void, who came to be after Malleus developed a split personality disorder, due to a lot of bullying from other kids and the fact that the other scientists humiliated him a lot. Sirius was always much stronger than Malleus, and even when Malleus got sick and couldn't walk, this has no effect on Sirius, as whenever he took control, he was able to freely walk. As Sirius started taking over, leaving less and less of Malleus, Malleus hired a doctor to "keep him in check", only for Sirius to kill this doctor by injecting him with a lot of morphine to stop Malleus from trying to surpress him. As three talented celebrities came to Malleus for fame, immortality and both, Sirius staged their messy and ironic deaths, which were based on their desires (like having the magical creatures pour one with gold, as that celebrity liked to be the "Golden Master" and turning the other into a cataconic energy creature, forever trapped in one place, although "forever trapped in one place" part wasn't his plan and was caused by the power shortage).
Meeting up with Rebecca Thatcher, Sirius falled in love with her, as she made him feel he has a purpose, which led him to be emotionally vulnerable enough for her to manipulate him into commiting various cruel murders and experiments. As Sirius almost completely overtook Malleus, the Detective arrived to his mansion to investigate the recent dissaperances. Sirius filled his territory with puzzles and traps to slow down the detective and even almost kills her by using the hologram of Rebecca to lure her right into his deadly traps, while she didn't suspected anything until the last moment. As the Detective manages to stay alive and tracks him down, as Sirius tried to burn all evidence, Sirius decided to commit suicide and write a letter to make it seems like Rebecca was the victim (to save her and take all blame on himself) and even writing another letter where he proclaims respect for the Detective as his most worthy opponent, while rebecca herself planned to take away all the riches and run, not caring about Sirius. The Detective managed to save Sirius and trap Rebecca, calling the police and leaving all the evidence to lock both Sirius and rebecca in Prison.
This all serves as a backstory, as in the Bonus Chapter, which acts as Epilogue, Sirius becomes the Player Character and truly evolves from smart, but easily manipulated man into a genius he claims to be. After some time in highly secured prison, Sirius managed to completely "wipe out" Malleus, leaving nothing from him and becoming his own person. Coming to terms with the fact that Rebecca used him, he declares that this will never happen again, as the prison awaits Rebecca, and started to stage his escape. Easily fooling security system and the guards, Sirius fakes his idenity to take the helicopter off the prison, with thembeing alerted that he's gone only after he flyed away.
Landing near the ship full of people, who party there, Sirius scared them all away with the fire signal and then build his own projective of physical holograms. Gathering up the DNA of the original crew of the ship, once again fooling the security system of the ship, Sirius creates hologram copies of them to serve him and traveled deep into the sea, with tales started to come up about the ship "full of ghosts", while Sirius himself remains at large, completely free, to this day.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
Sirius is hailed as a genius inventor, who could easily can come up with plans, traps and puzzles, who managed to nearly lure the Detective to his death twice. Even in the main game, where he was manipulated by rebecca, it was made clear that all the elaborate traps and invenstions were his own doing and ultimately his love for Rebecca is the only thing that allowed her to manipulate him, as he even hints in his intended final letter that he didn't care if Rebecca actually loved him. Nevetheless, while in the main game even with all of this he would fall short, in the Bonus Chapter Sirius managed to evolve enough for me to want to propose him, with him "breaking" from Rebecca's influence, easily fooling around everyone, including the security system of the highly secured prison and escaping, remaining at large at the end, with no one even coming close to catching him after that.
Personality wise, while the game has almost no dialogue, due to lack of voice actors, Sirius' personality is showed off more fully and neatly in his diary in the Bonus Chapter, which you can check out in these screeshots: newspaper about the events of the main game, Sirius' thoughts about them, Sirius' plan to escape, next stage of his plan, his describtion of "his" crew.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Kills a few people, tries to kill the Hero and committed smaller crimes in his escape during the Bonus Chapter, but still, in overall series Sirius comes off as less evil than many other villains, for example none of his victims included kids, most of his deeds had a purpose, like scinetific curiosity with his experiment on celebrity who wanted immortality, and wanting to wipe away all the evidence of his involvement. His murder of the doctor also served a purpose, due to the doctor helping Malleus to try "surpress and destroy" Sirius. After breaking off from Rebecca, Sirius abandoned even that and didn't even tried or thinked about killing anyone else, smartly fooling everyone around, and being content with smaller scale crimes, showcasing that he isn't even a sadist at "heart".
Final Verdict?
What do you think?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Oct 8th 2020 at 1:12:36 PM
to Sirius and Gabriel
to Charlie and Harper
Goku Black
void
Also oh that's the film you were thinking off. I watched that. Charlie and Harper. Their bosses are jerks so what they do isn't at all bad.
Ahh finally some movement!![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Gabriel.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid