Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

@Ferot_Dreadnaught: Just cut all of that. The Unintentionally Sympathetic entry for Bart even outright contradicts itself, by pointing out how Bart didn't seem to care about hurting his sister's feelings and mocked his family on live TV after running away.

This is clearly supposed to be an episode where both sides of the conflict have to share their blame. Lisa's the only one who's meant to be wholly sympathetic in the episode, and the UU entry for her seems kind of nitpicky to me. The use of the Weasel Words "to some extent" cements it for me.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Jan 13th 2021 at 5:15:39 AM

I found this on the The Simpsons S 10 E 8 Homer Simpsons In The Kidney Trouble YMMV page:

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: Homer. Despite everyone demonizing him when he refused to donate a kidney to his own father, he was fully willing to do so but nobody bothered to tell him about the effects the donation procedure would have on Homer's health. It could be that they were still blaming him for what happened to get Abe sick in the first place but it was downright negligible to ignore the effects on Homer. There's also the fact that they stole Homer's kidney when he was already injured in an accident which is not only illegal and something worthy of suing Hibbert for malpractice but Homer could have died from the procedure.
• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Despite him being sick for most of the episode due to severe renal failure, it's hard to feel sympathy for Abe after he gloats about stealing his son's kidney from him.

I could not disagree with both of these points, especially the Unsympathetic example, more. Aside from Homer being the reason that Abe had a kidney blowout (he refused to allow him to go to the bathroom on a long road trip home in order not to miss an episode Inside the Actors Studio even as he repeatedly begged him), but he also signed the papers and agreed twice to the operation, only to run away both times leaving his father to die. Granted, he was understandably scared of the operation and what Hibbert did was questionable, but it's not to the point where we should "sympathize" with Homer and "hate" on Grampa for being thankful to be alive.

I could've sworn I deleted that YMMV page a while back. I remember the UU entry being for Homer when that version of the page was around.

I see. I knew wasn't going crazy in remembering Homer being listed underneath "Unsympathetic". Even if he does deserve some empathy, I can't see why Grampa should be considered an unlikable jerk for that one moment: it's in his nature to gloat over Homer.

Edited by Erin582 on Jan 16th 2021 at 8:44:07 AM

Yeah, cut those entries. One of the biggest complaints about that episode was that Homer was such a huge Jerkass, his actions came across as monstrous rather than funny. I haven't really seen that many people try to defend Homer's actions in that episode.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Jan 16th 2021 at 9:26:03 AM

Me neither. Done.

Here's an issue I found with Fluttershy in the episode "Daring Doubt"

• Fluttershy is meant to be seen as a pony who tries sees the good in everypony, thus wanting to hear both sides of the story and getting to who Caballeron and Ahuizotal really is as a result. However, not only does she completely disregard her best friend Rainbow's warnings about Dr. Caballeron, she completely ignores the threats and insults, and many flaws that he tries to cover up. She also risks her own life trying to talk to Ahuizotl and getting his side of the story, making her seem Stupid Neutral at worse.

This actually explains how she comes across as foolish rather than unsympathetic, and there is a big difference between the two meanings.

Yeah, that doesn't make her unsympathetic, it's not like she turned on Rainbow and Daring Do, she was just giving Caballeron and Ahuizotl a chance. She was acting stupid, but that's it.

If "acting kinda dumb" is enough to make fans hate Fluttershy here, characters like Spike must be the most hated characters ever.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 17th 2021 at 4:58:30 AM

Maybe What An Idiot would fit Th is better ?

Maybe? She wasn't acting OOC or anything...

And there weren’t even any bad consequences from Fluttershy's actions, were there?

Besides that she helped Caballeron, who was established as not even being that bad a guy? Not really.

If ANYONE in that episode is UU, it's Ahuizotl himself. I mean he's tried to kill Daring Do, Rainbow Dash and even Fluttershy before she gave him a chance. Fans loathe how someone who was willing to end the world on several occasions, and kill several innocent bystanders besides Daring Do is suddenly given the Discord treatment. At least with Discord they retconned most of his nature to be on Cosmos from the IDW comics. And yet we're supposed to feel for a guy who did all these horrible things with no hints as to his "well intentioned" behaviour in the beginning.

There's a few examples on Cobra Kai that I'm not sure about:

• Unintentionally Sympathetic:
  • Hawk's beatdown of Brucks in season three is supposed to be seen as another example of him being corrupted by Kreese's influence. However, given he was one of the main perpetrators of the bullying in season one, it instead comes across as Hawk dishing some much needed Laser-Guided Karma. Can't it be both? The audience is clearly meant to start out cheering for Hawk but then become disturbed when he's repeatedly punching Brucks in the face while he's already down and out with blood all over his hands, and I thought the scene was pretty effective in that regard.
  • Miguel beating up Hawk at Coyote Creek was meant to be a sign of corruption. However, by that point, Hawk had stolen the Medal of Honor, which cost Johnny half his students, and was parading the medal around with no remorse of what he had done so it's hard not to agree with Miguel. Johnny calls him out on this even though he would've had Hawk for breakfast had he known about the Medal of Honor. Miguel was clearly portrayed as heroic for most of the fight, the only action that Johnny and the audience is supposed to object to is obeying Kreese's order to "finish him" by kicking Hawk again while he's down, which was clearly unnecessary as Miguel had already won the fight.
• Unintentionally Unsympathetic:
  • Shannon Keene. While she's accurate in her criticism's of Johnny as a father, she herself is no motherly saint as she's just as inattentive (if not more so) to her son then Johnny who for all his faults at least tries to improve and reach out to their son. She's also Gold Digger who only cares about herself as well as a hypocrite who heaps all of the blame on Johnny for his treatment of their son Robby even though she neglects him herself and refuses to take responsibility for it. Hell she even tried to leave her apartment with her new man "Rick" while Robby was sleeping without any hesitation whatsoever only to sneak back in to quickly grab something meaning that she was perfectly okay with possibly abandoning her son. And when she finally decides to improve herself by going to rehab (which happened because of her prioritizing drinking and picking up men at bars over taking care of her son) it's only after something bad has happened to her. Shannon is clearly meant to be an unsympathetic character in the first two seasons. She's repeatedly shown to be a neglectful mother to Robby and refuses to give Johnny a chance when the audience can see that his attempts to rebuild his life are genuine.
  • While Tory has been the main instigator in their rivalry, much like Daniel LaRusso during the first Karate Kid movie, Sam did her fair share of instigating with Tory such as trying to rifle through Tory's purse to get her mom's stolen wallet when she has no proof the wallet was even stolen in the first place or mocking Tory for losing the drinking contest when it was Stingray's fault for distracting her. Her condemning of Tory's bullying (while justified) also comes off as hypocritical as she didn't do the same to Yasmine when she bullied Aisha just because of Yasmine's social standing. This seems to be an intentional case of Both Sides Have a Point, especially since the entire premise of the show is that Daniel wasn't as innocent as he seemed to be in the original Karate Kid. The only situation in which the audience is meant to 100% sympathise with Sam is when Tory tries to maim her with a spiked bracelet for kissing Miguel, and I'd like to see anyone argue that wasn't an overreaction.
  • Carmen blaming Johnny for Miguel's condition comes off as kinda unfair as she claims he never got into fights before meeting him even though Kyler nearly beat his ass at the mini mart before he and Johnny became friends. While Johnny does take part of the blame for Miguel's condition, Kyler had already shown a willingness to do the same to Miguel. The following season she admits it was unfair and just lashing out in her grief.
  • Amanda demanding that Daniel and Sam quit karate altogether, blaming it for putting her daughter in the hospital, when from the moment Tory saw her kiss Miguel it was going to be that or a body bag. Like Carmen, she realizes in Season 3 that Sam really has been dealing with serious physical threats and has no choice but to defend herself. If both characters admit they were wrong the following season, wouldn't that mean them being unsympathetic originally was intentional?

Random thought: do you think an "Ambiguously Sympathetic" type of YMMV item could clear up confusions when it comes to this item and US, since sometimes the audience just isn't sure what they were supposed to feel for the character to begin with?

I feel like it'd just perpetuate the delusion that's fueling a lot of these examples that authors always have a definite way they want a character to be perceived.

Can we check Unintentionally Sympathetic entries here too? This entry from Law & Order: Special Victims Unit seems like it's more like an Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry for the cops, unless they're arguing that a pedophile is sympathetic just because he didn't technically commit a crime.

• Simon Wilkes, the alleged pedophile who fantasized in dark net chat rooms about killing and torturing children. While definitely a creep, the fact remains that a court ruled what he was doing was merely a fantasy and did not constitute a crime or conspiracy to commit a crime (especially considering his case was inspired by the real life case of Gilberto Valle who was initially convicted of conspiracy to commit murder based on internet chat rooms where he described violent fantasies of rape and torture but whose conviction was overturned a year later by an appeals judge who ruled that Valle's internet actions were fantasy and did not constitute conspiracy). Still, the audience is expected to be pleased with both Amaro and the SVU detectives actions after Wilkes' acquittal, with the former physically assaulting him and the later for falsifying evidence that Wilkes punched first.

There's a lot of Unintentionally Unsympathetic entries on the page too but I don't know all the episodes well enough to check.

Edited by mightymewtron on Jan 31st 2021 at 5:53:11 AM

and

Isn't Caballeron UU for the same reason Ahuizotl is UU? Basically retconning their behavior into "oh they had good intentions all along"

Would anyone be interested in helping to rewrite the UU entry for Caballeron? It was previously deleted little over a year ago due to being really complainy but I think he actually is an example.

• Dr. Caballeron has come off as this to a good portion of the fandom. Yes, he realizes the error of his ways in the end, and he even makes amends with Daring Do as the two co-write a book together under their aliases. However, many felt that it was hollow and didn't justify the many times in the past he's put not only Daring Do, but her own friends and innocent bystanders in harms way just to steal treasure, or more recently try to turn ordinary townsponies and her own fans against her with misinformation and lies. In the end many felt he shouldn't have been as Easily Forgiven and should've faced the consequences for all things he's done.

P.S, Regarding the episode, I notice that the YMMV page is claiming the episode made the hero "bad" and the villains "good". That wasn't the point of the episode, it was to say that everyone has good and bad points to them and to hear everyone out, Despite the characters they chose to execute the aesop with demonstrating a false equivalence.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jan 31st 2021 at 9:38:57 AM

Oh boy. Hate to bring this up again from YMMV.The Last Of Us Part II, but...

• Abby was portrayed as having undergone redeeming Character Development after brutally murdering Joel as revenge for their killing her father, realizing it wasn't worth it and thus deservingly gets better off than Ellie who would remain consumed with revenge until the ending. This rang hollow to many due to Abby's continued cruelties such as gleefully attempting to kill Dina after learning she was pregnant stopping only because Lev told her to while Ellie is guilt ridden after realizing Mel who she killed was pregnant and her other actions and ultimately struggled and chose to break the Cycle of Revenge unlike Abby. Abby's karma of losing her friends and pet dog to Ellie's Roaring Rampage of Revenge was seen by many instead as everyone but Abby suffering for it. ^note  After playing the game, Abby's voice actress Laura Bailey thinks that Abby was ''intentionally'' unsympathetic. Her exact words being "You're not supposed to [like her]".

Is the entry contradicting itself?

Edited by Siegfried1337 on Jan 31st 2021 at 11:14:33 AM

Is the actress saying it's intentional then I'm not sure it's an example.

Yeah, I'd say that's a UU entry in disguise. Punishing someone for having creepy online fantasies that they'd never actually act on strikes me as nasty thought police-esque behavior (and very much in keeping with the general There Should Be a Law judgementality of a lot of these shows), but it doesn't make the fantasist himself sympathetic, especially since the entry itself still calls him a "creep".

That Caballeron example looks better. Daring Doubt as a whole is a very controversial episode for the way it makes an established heroine (two if you count Rainbow) into a Ron the Death Eater In-Universe by a character who is far too biased.

No, that was an old example that was there before it was deleted deleted being too complainy.

Anyways, what's this example trying to say?

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: While Todd is right that BoJack has to accept that he hurts people whether he knows it or not, just how guilty is BoJack in this particular situation? Sure, he slept with Emily, but it was ultimately between two consenting adults and Todd isn't even attracted to her, nor could he ever be. In fact, the only reason Todd thinks BoJack took advantage of her is because Emily didn't have the guts to break it off with BoJack personally, leading Todd to assume the worst (which, at this point, is all he really can do).

I actually agree with that example, despite so many BoJack Horseman examples being garbage. (We do have a BoJack Horseman cleanup, btw.) It's saying that Todd's reaction to BoJack having sex with Emily was overblown and claiming BoJack was sympathetic in that situation, but it works better as an Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry for Todd. I think BoJack being Unintentionally Sympathetic could be written as a broader idea, and this can be deleted.

...We had a bunch of Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic entries on the show's YMMV page but they seem to have been nuked, which seems unfair as despite the show's Grey-and-Grey Morality, there are moments where certain characters are clearly sympathetic or not.

It's kind of written confusingly though? Is BoJack or Todd actually sympathetic or not?

Anyways, this is the only other example on BoJack Horseman S3 E10 "It's You" other than an invalid Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped entry, so I don't know what to do with the entry if the page ends up deleted due to a lack of examples.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Feb 4th 2021 at 2:52:27 PM