Base Breaking Character Cleanup

Really, the Mr. Universe example is the only one that actually seems to be valid, but used in the wrong context. It definitely counts as Wangst, since Steven whines about not being able to go to school and make any "real" friends.

Because we should pity someone who grew up being able to do whatever he wants, being taught how to use his cool and useful powers and living in a town where everyone likes him.

I was being sarcastic, if anyone didn't realize.

Admittedly, if enough fans think it, I guess it could be valid as long as it was worded to show that that's just what some fans think rather than that it is his fault.

"Let’s see who’s stronger: someone that has something to protect, or someone that has nothing to lose."

Is it widespread, though? The entry contains the classic "some fans think" Word Cruft while also saying a majority found him sympathetic.

Really, that write-up is all over the place.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

I think the general reaction was that Steven is overreacting. For understandable reasons, but still, he was overreacting.

Did he break the base is what I'm asking.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

I don't know. The show itself is a massive Contested Sequel anyway.

Eh, I'm just gonna cut it. If my experience, people usually leave stuff like this alone even if it's in a sorry state, while if there's nothing there they're more motivated to write their own (hopefully better) version.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

All I really have to say is that there's a huge difference between actually Victim Blaming Steven and claiming that his attitude made him unlikeable to the audience despite it. All the example did was point out that fans felt a certain way about him.

We can't ask all fans to be rational and we can't complain that some people didn't find him sympathetic just because his mental issues were meant to be taken seriously. We certainly can't remove fan reactions on that basis alone as if the only ones allowed are the "correct" ones.

Now, whether or not it's a Broken Base is debatable and I agree with removing for that basis. But we need to remember that Steven is a fictional character whose struggles were written by fallible writers and that audience members could easily have different reactions to his actions.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Personally, I have issues with how Steven was written in Future, mostly in the final stretch of the series when it didn't really address the harm he'd done to others during his rage, but I've never seen anybody else agree with me on that front. So nah, not broken enough a base.

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 11th 2020 at 5:58:10 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I have problems with how he's written in Future but I'm not a fan any more, and I think a lot of people who have problems with future aren't fans anymore either, which excludes us from broken base.

Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?

In such a butchered way I thought it was victim blaming him at first.

I totally understand why people don't find Steven sympathetic and I have my own problems with Future. But this thing's so illegible I had to read it like five times to fully understand what it was trying to say! I should cut it for that alone. In fact, I did.

If Steven actually did break the base, and if someone were to write a neutral, understandable entry for it, I'd be fine with it, but it seems like he didn't even break it — at least by our standards.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

I've seen lots of comments about Steven being out of character during Future or acting like someone with borderline personality disorder. I'm not sure that counts as base breaking necessarily though or just Alternative Character Interpretation.

Oissu!

Latter seems to be Alternate Character Interpretation, though it's not farfetched since he explicitly has childhood trauma. But people complaining he acts out of character is a bit silly, since him being unlike his cheerful younger self is the point of the show. Most fans I know understand that point, so I don't think it's base-breaking. Hell, I'd say complaining that Steven doesn't act like his original self is borderline Misaimed Fandom.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Most criticisms I've seen more involved around Steven having Aesop Amnesia in regards to learning he needs help, as well as things just working out too easily at the end when the amount of pain and trauma and anger within him was somehow temporarily fixed with just a big group hug. It's more about the issues with how they portrayed Steven's PTSD and how people found his attitude grating, even if they sympathized with him.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

So, we talked over the She-Ra entries a bit ago and cut some. Recently, a troper going by anthonyjr34 added a couple entries, one of which was a ZCE about Glimmer, and edited to repeatedly point out "anti" communities on Tumblr. While that was cleaned up by another troper, who removed the references to the "anti" communities, their entry on Catra remains, albeit stripped, and I think it deserves a look-over.

• Catra, some people see her as an irredeemable brat whose behavior is straight up abusive to Adora, and also blame her for Angella's death despite Noelle Stevenson's claims otherwise. Even former Catradora shippers fell into Abandon Shipping after her unsympathetic behavior in Seasons 3 and 4, and her general attitude towards Adora.

If I'm gonna give my personal two cents, I think the entry is quite bashy and should probably be cut, especially as I feel it gives inaccurate information. (Catradora is, even after Seasons 4 and 5, probably the most popular pairing among the fanbase.)

Edited by Riley1sCool on Oct 14th 2020 at 12:48:37 PM

It's not a good BBC entry anyway since it's obviously one-sided against Catra with no mention of the side of the fanbase that still likes her. Also, as an outsider, I've only seen Catradora become more popular in recent years.

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 14th 2020 at 4:53:59 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Catradora definitely deserves a spot of its own under Broken Base as it is indeed quite polarizing, and some of those reasons exist independently of Catra specifically, such as the shippers (obviously) and the LGBT Fanbase loving it, while others felt it derailed the show's other storylines or is Romanticized Abuse. The reason for the increase in seeming popularity of Catradora is a mixture of the nature of fandom inertia to favor Official Couples as it's something that will also engage the less transformative fans, not to mention the existing fans will become louder now that their ship status is certain. Abandon Shipping should stay in its own entry, as this is using a shipping issue to complain about a single character.

On the fandom side, Catradora's overwhelming popularity (for various reasons editors can add on their own) has made certain portions act abusive and entitled, because shipping anything else is seen as heretical. This in turn engenders resentment from many of the still significant-in-its-own-right fraction of the fanbase who ship anything besides Catradora, as well as some Catradora fans who were turned off by Catra's behavior in later seasons, so even if Catradora still remains the most popular single ship, neutral opinions on it are rare. Again, definitely a strong case for Broken Base here.

But it's extremely difficult to separate evaluation of Catradora from Catra as a singular character, and I think her divisiveness is far broader than the entry describes. She's a huge Jerkass Woobie, who half of fandom loves for the Woobie part (and you could probably go into more detail on), and the other half hates for the Jerkass part (usually that she eventually became too unsympathetic, and/or was technically redeemed but it was too rushed for her not to be a Karma Houdini). A lot of what I said about opinions on Catradora in the fandom could be repeated to describe Catra with minimal adjustments^{To Wit} On the fandom side, Catra's overwhelming initial popularity has made some of her extreme fans act abusive and entitled, because sympathizing more heavily with anyone else is seen as heretical. This in turn engenders resentment from many of the still significant-in-its-own-right fraction of the fanbase who like other characters besides Catra, as well as some former Catra fans who were turned off by her behavior in later seasons, so even if Catra still remains one of the most popular characters, neutral opinions on her are rare. Direct links to fandom meta are frowned upon, and that one Tumblr link about her downsides can surely be summed up and posted on this page directly.

As much as I detest antis, as much as they've tried to make some of my friends and even me miserable over literal nothings because some of them are just looking for an excuse to engage in Wounded Gazelle Gambit, and as much as Catra icons have become associated with the fandom equivalent of concern trolls... this page isn't the best place for deeper discussion on fandom performativity politics, the polarization of ship/character standom, and straw hypocrisy, as you can tell by the somewhat incendiary and at times childish tone and language that many of the page's entries are written in. It's entirely possible to describe the situation in technical terms without bringing up the antis, as I did above.

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 14th 2020 at 5:53:31 AM

You sound like you could put a much better entry for Catra on that page, if you can summarize all that as a paragraph.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Only thing is, I haven't watched the show for myself either, I'm mostly gone off clips I've seen shared of it from various people who are closer to the fandom, including a few who got driven off by the overly hostile stans, and a few who put up because they like the show too much. So I'd need a bit of help as I'm better at describing the fandom response than citing specific instances of characterization.

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 14th 2020 at 6:01:18 AM

Oh, I'm not even close to denying that Catra counts or that the people who are anti-Catra bear mention; the issue was the troper was shoehorning in reference to the "anti" Tumblr communities even for characters that we've decided don't count. (Glimmer is the obvious one.)

Agreed, Catra is a keep for this. As someone who watched the show, I did propose my own entry, but we ultimately decided not to go forward with that particular one.

That entry should be cut not because I feel Catra doesn't count but because it's absurdly one-sided.

I could try my hand at writing another entry.

Yeah, I didn't think you were saying she shouldn't get an entry, and I agree the entry as it's written is weak as well as somewhat immaturely written, the same reason I don't think this page is well-handled for any kind of conversation or mention of antis.

Alright, I'll try writing an entry again. I hope it's not too biased. (I fall into the "Love Catra, hate her arc" camp.)

The other thing of note: Should it be mentioned how loudly her and Hordak's fans tend to clash with each other? One of the biggest divisions tends to be that many Hordak fans feel she steals the Horde plotline (And all of Season 5) out from under him, despite feeling he's just as if not more interesting, whereas many Catra fans refuse to acknowledge Hordak's sympathetic traits and often attack Hordak enthusiasts.

• Catra proved to be one of the show's most divisive characters. While initially well-liked due to being interesting, sympathetically villainous, and having Foe Romance Subtext with Adora, her increasingly awful actions came to divide the fandom. While some defend her as a complex Tragic Villain due to her abusive upbringing and troubled life, and love her redemption, seeing it as cathartic, relatable, and progressive, with some going further than that and treating her as never being a villain at all, others came to hate her due to her relationship with Adora growing violent to an extent many felt was Romanticized Abuse and increasingly cruel and spiteful acts, and feel that her redemption happened too quickly, along with the way she tends to be the focus of the show, especially in its later seasons. Neither of these issues are quieted by Noelle Stevenson's admitted love of Catra or the large number of fans solely interested in her and her relationship with Adora.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Oct 14th 2020 at 3:51:41 AM

I think that sounds pretty good so far. Perhaps post a few more positives about the redemption, such as that many of her fans find it personally cathartic (a lot of people love Catra because they identify with her for better or for worse, the same principle behind Possession Sue but more canon).

I've definitely seen inklings of the Catra vs. Hordak debate enough through the grapevine to tell that it is probably a big issue in the fandom, and having already mentioned how Catradora is disliked by people who thought it derailed other storylines, I figure that must be a specific example of what some of them meant. Although I'm still debating whether it should be a Hordak BBC entry, a Broken Base entry (since it's not limited to just one character), or something else entirely.

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 14th 2020 at 6:48:04 AM

Edited it to include some more positives about the redemption.

I'd say the Hordak vs. Catra debate is a Broken Base issue. Entrapdak vs. Catradora is already listed as a strange example of Ship-to-Ship Combat, but Hordak and Catra's fans tend to lock horns very aggressively.

Edit: Would it be okay to post the entry now?

Second Edit: Added it. Hopefully it's an alright entry.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Oct 15th 2020 at 10:10:10 AM

These entries on YMMV.Rise Of The Guardians have been bugging me for a while.

• Base-Breaking Character:
  • Jack Frost. While widely accepted by people at the start, the fandom reaction and treatment of his character over the years has resulted in the character becoming incredibly polarizing. While the film has a bit of a bad reputation for its invasive ship wars, the most influential factor has been the massively popular Crossover Ship of Jack Frost with Elsa. The ship has become a really popular crossover pairing, resulting in fanart, fanfics, and even cosplays becoming attractions at conventions, and while adored by fans, this has resulted in many fans becoming sick of the ship.
  • Pitch Black. He gets hate as the bad guy who causes the heroes a lot of grief and has a number of fangirls who believe he's done nothing bad. Some see him as a Tragic Villain and a complex, fascinating character; others think he's generic, whiny, and not as scary as he's supposed to be. And then, some book fans express frustration about how the movie changes his backstory and motives.

Do I get it right that a Base-Breaking Character is loved and hated by the fans of the work? As far as I know, Jack is loved by the absolute majority of the movie's fans and hated by a number of people who hate Jack/Elsa Crossover Ship — not by the ROTG fans. So, I'm not sure if he qualifies.

As for Pitch, I've seen the movie's fans expressing the attitudes listed in the entry but I think nearly every detailed villain inspires this all: some hate them for hurting the sympathetic good guys, some like them as a compelling character, some put them in leather pants, and some complain that the villain isn't effective enough. Yet, not every detailed villain is listed as a Base-Breaking Character, so maybe there is something wrong with this entry. Or maybe I'm nitpicking.

Edit:

Edited by Tenebrika on Oct 27th 2020 at 3:57:33 PM