Needs Help: Nightmare Fuel

People will miss it a far lot less and are lot less likely to ignore it if it is upfront. It makes no sense to have requirements for a trope and then put them on a separate space entirely. I have done my share of cleaning up and I disagree. Sometimes you have to lay out the rules. Again this has been done before and helps. Readers and Editors have ample cross over.

edited 1st Sep '17 1:34:27 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

You can and should write requirements for a trope on the trope page, but in form of qualifications and not in form of a rules list.

So for example one could say that Nightmare Fuel is about "unusually scary things that go beyond the standards of the genre in question and which will give you and other people nightmares" (more qualifiers are probably needed), to summarize some of the points in the proposed rules. We did such a writeup with Complete Monster and it did help there.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

The guidelines definitely need to be obvious. Is there a way, perhaps, to have a header like the Trivia or YMMV banner on all Nightmare Fuel pages, for a certain period of time, explaining that the guidelines have become more strict and give a link to the new guidelines?

I know I've rarely ever visited Discussion pages. I just thought they were for discussion, when I'm usually there to add or fix a trope example before moving on. The only times I've checked discussion pages is when an example I planned to add is especially obvious or controversial and the fact that it's not already on the page stands out to me, and I want to check if there's been discussion about it. I wouldn't check it for guidelines, especially on an old page I wouldn't immediately assume has been changed.

Jokubus: Not sure we can do a banner like that. Wouldn't hurt if we could.

Septimus: That is already included in the post put up by Zuxtron. What is and isn't an example. It leads with what should be, in a fashion that is simple, straight forward, and to the point. They have enough wiggle room to be flexible and specific enough to exclude the problems. We have to spell out what doesn't go on the page because it has reached the point it has become a notable problem. To the point axing it is a strong temptation because of how wide spread it has become.

It doesn't mince words, doesn't make clumsy examples, and spells out what the expectation is. I can also argue that would also inform readers what exactly they should be looking for and have in mind as well.

edited 1st Sep '17 3:34:45 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

There is already a rule list on Nightmare Fuel, it's been there since January and was added by a moderator (Fighteer to be more specific). This seems to indicate that having a rule list on the page would not be a problem.

Yes, I do not agree. And if you mean the re-statement of Administrivia, then that definitively does not belong.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

This is what I was referring to when I mentioned putting the proposed rules on the main Nightmare Fuel page if they become official. The page already has a set of notes with "Dos" and "Don'ts" on it, so changes to the rules would be expanding that instead of adding something completely new. The main page doesn't even have examples on it, as they're on subpages instead.

edited 2nd Sep '17 3:29:03 AM by GastonRabbit

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

When looking at some examples from the Star Wars Nightmare Fuel pages. I'm not sure if examples that reference later installments would work. They seem more suitable for Harsher in Hindsight, some examples:

From the Phantom Menace page

• Anakin's saying no one can kill a Jedi seemed innocent back then. Come a decade or so later he takes part in the Jedi Purge being the spearhead of the genocide of the Jedi
• In The Clone Wars, Darth Maul survived that experience. Imagine going through that and no one comes to help you until YEARS later after you have gone almost completely insane. Family unfriendly indeed.

From Revenge of the Sith

• The horrific ruthlessness of the clones. Surprisingly, according to the monologue in Star Wars: Battlefront II, the clone troopers weren't that fond of Ki-Adi-Mundi, but what about Obi-Wan? Star Wars: Clone Wars shows that he and Cody were allies and friends for years and he had no hesitation in fulfilling the Order 66. The fact that the clones could be not your friends, but also absolutely obedient to the point where they will blindly follow orders is some major Paranoia Fuel.

  • Star Wars: The Clone Wars gives us more information on Order 66, and it turns out the clones are just as affected by it as the Jedi are: All clone troopers have brainwashing chips planted in them during gestation, set to activate on a trigger.
  • And Star Wars Legends showed that it was a perfectly reasonable contingence in case the Jedi Order rebelled that everyone knew about but didn't expect would ever need to be implemented. After all, if the Jedi rebel, how do you imprison them? You have to kill them. The worst part is the Irony and Refuge in Audacity of Order 65: it's an order for the clones to arrest the Chancellor, and kill him if he tries to resist or escape. The brainwashing chip isn't even necessary, in most cases: the clone troopers have been just told that a truly nightmarish scenario has started, and they must Shoot the Dog or see the galaxy go to the depths of all hell.

Some examples in the Star Wars NF pages can also border around Fridge Horror.

• (about Starkiller Base destroying several planets) Considering the pain that Obi-Wan felt when Alderaan was destroyed, imagine how it must have felt for Leia? Even though she's not a Jedi, she's still Force-sensitive. She must have been in agonizing pain sensing all those lives snuffed out in an instant!

The Nightmare Fuel page for The Force Awakens has a lot of examples and not all of them are really frightening for the viewer, maybe mildly unsettling instead.

edited 2nd Sep '17 2:43:32 PM by SithPanda16

Both Phantom examples can be nuked. First is just a mild case of Harsher in Hindsight, second belongs on the The Clone Wars page (and I'm pretty sure it's already there, with more detail).

Not sure about Order 66. Somebody else can field that. If it does stay, though, it needs some formatting cleanup.

That last one is definitely a hypothetical, and can be nuked. We can argue that the scene itself counts, but Leia's reaction does not, since it was offscreen and never so much as mentioned.

I think everything on NightmareFuel.The Sexy Brutale can be cut. The first example is the character, rather than the troper, being scared; the second entry includes every time this scary thing happens (which to me implies that it didn't really scare the troper who added that example); the third entry has no context; the fourth entry seems like a Tearjerker entry (the characters not dying immediately but taking a few minutes while they suffer). The fifth entry also lacks context, and in theory I can see why it might be disturbing but they have less than a second after they realize they're doomed. The last entry seems more like Fridge Brilliance than even Fridge Horror.

Note that it used to be littered with spoiler markup but I removed them.

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty

I wonder why spoiler tags are not allowed for Nightmare Fuel examples.

I brought that up here. Basically, you should expect to find spoilers. The amount of context needed to explain why something is scary would generally be spoiler-y.

An example from this post on the Pokemon pages would be "The villain of Sun and Moon's true colours" without the necessary context. But the context of the example is the Nightmare Fuel example. That is, it isn't merely that so-and-so did such-and-such, but the context itself plays a part in why such-and-such was scary in the first place.

Think of it this way, such-and-such is scary, but Played for Laughs given the context of the situation. That wouldn't be Nightmare Fuel. But imagine that that same "such-and-such" is scary and Played for Drama. That could be NF. That same "such-and-such" on its own isn't necessarily NF. So the context is even more important than normal.

edited 2nd Sep '17 5:57:53 PM by WaterBlap

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty

After posting an image picking thread for the page for Nightmare Fuel. Foxcatcher. It was recommended that this page gets pulled into the NF repair thread. I have all the examples here

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• Steve Carell's performance as Du Pont - full stop. He gives the character a very frightening presence, like a time bomb that you don't know when will go off.
• The murder of Dave Schultz. Du Pont just pulls up to him and shoots him down without mercy, taking more shots even when he's crawling down on the ground in agony.
  • Du Pont shooting Dave is frightening because of just how sudden it is. He pulls out a gun, barks "Do you have a problem with me?" to Dave, and before Dave can even stammer out a defense he pulls the trigger. Three times without flinching.
• Mark Schultz's breakdowns, particularly when he repeatedly punches himself in the face and then smashes his head through a mirror three times. The scene gets even more intense when you learn that Channing Tatum improvised the latter bit - and legitimately hurt himself in the process.

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The first one does seem like a Zero Context Example, I don't know about the rest.

Get rid of the spoilers on the page. Spoilers aren't allowed on Nightmare Fuel pages

If we're cleaning up bad Nightmare Fuel pages already, I may as well bring up what I consider to be the worst ones: those for fighting games by Netherrealm Studios.

• NightmareFuel.Mortal Kombat 9 is not too bad asides from listing every single stage fatality. Some of the fatality descriptions are Zero Context Examples too, but it's probably the least awful of these pages. I'd remove some of the less disturbing fatalities, and add context to those that remain.
• NightmareFuel.Injustice Gods Among Us, on the other hand, might be the worst one as it lists literally every single super move and stage transition in the game. Here's a video compilation, you'd have to be incredibly faint of heart to actually find any of these scary. I'd suggest cutting all of the special moves and transitions.
• NightmareFuel.Mortal Kombat X is another contender for worst page, as it contains literally every finishing move in the game, whether it be a fatality, brutality, faction kill, or stage fatality, as well as all the X-Ray attacks. I'd cut all of the brutalities (which are too quick and generic to be disturbing) and X-Rays (which are all gruesome, but none of them being special stand-outs) and most of the fatalities, leaving only the most gruesome ones. Maybe for the X-Rays, I could put up a mention that they show the opponent's insides in more detail that Mortal Kombat 9, which makes them more gruesome, but not go into specifics about any of them in particular.
• NightmareFuel.Injustice 2 lists several non-frightening super moves, but at least it doesn't have literally all of them. I'd cut the gameplay section since none of that is really scary.

All of these pages have spoiler tags on them, which should be removed. I'd rather not do the Injustice 2 page, because I haven't played it yet but plan on getting it in the future, so I'd appreciate it if someone could de-spoilerize that page for me.

As for the Mortal Kombat X page, the generally accepted most horrifying fatalities are Scorpion's Stop Ahead, Ermac's Inner Workings, Quan Chi's Mind Game, and Mileena's Tasty Treat, so they could stay. If anyone finds other fatalities to be disturbingly brutal, you could add that too.

88: Just based on their content, I think the only example that might legitimately count is the last one, and in that case, I'd put that single entry on its YMMV page and cutlist the NF page.

As for fighting games with gruesome finishing moves, as their entire point is to be gruesome, I question whether or not they legitimately count, but I can live with only citing the most over-the-top examples.

With the No Spoilers on the Nightmare Fuel Page, we should put a warning on most of the pages that spoilers will be unmarked, especially if it's a film that was just released. That way people won't accidentally spoil themselves on major plot points.

Looking into the NF page for the Last Crusade again, I'm not sure if this example would be more suitable for Fridge Horror instead of Nightmare Fuel.

• The dirigible sequence, the famous "No ticket!" scene. Observe how quickly the other passengers reach for their tickets, and consider the scene from their eyes: You live in a country that has been forcibly seized by fascists who begin to do terrible things to people that you may have known for decades. You book a luxury trip (maybe an escape...) on a vehicle that should be safe when a large man throws another man out to his death. This man turns and explains that the unfortunate evicted had no ticket. Is he a Party member in disguise? Is this another SS trick? No wonder they were so eager to show off their right to be on the blimp, they didn't want this soldier to kill them as well!

edited 3rd Sep '17 4:32:14 PM by SithPanda16

I'm done cleaning up the NRS fighters' pages. Only thing left is to remove the spoiler tags from NightmareFuel.Injustice 2, which I'd rather not do for reasons explained in my previous post.

Yes, there should indeed be a warning added to the top of these pages. I've been putting these warnings up whenever I've removed the spoiler tags, and everyone else should too.

That reads like Fridge Horror. As I recall, the scene itself is tense but not remotely scary.

I have to concur that is Fridge Horror.

edited 3rd Sep '17 5:16:02 PM by Karxrida

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

The Nightmare Fuel page for Pokemon Go is mostly real life incidents mixed in with some examples about the Pokemon themselves that belong more in the games they are originally from. Is it okay if I go a-nukin'?

I'd say so. I'm pretty sure meta/RL examples for Nightmare Fuel aren't allowed.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

If we're going to keep cleaning up specific Nightmare Fuel pages, should I make a separate Long-Term Project thread for that purpose? I'm pretty sure we're going to need one anyway once this thread's goal (redefining Nightmare Fuel to exclude non-scary things) is achieved, so it doesn't clog up the 100 TRS threads limit.

At this point, if we're good with the new rules, I'd say go ahead and make the thread in Long-Term Projects.