How sweet it is
Wick check looks good, so opening.
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Possible rename, too, since Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds is already "tragic". This trope is a specific kind of tragic, right?
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
To keep this thread going. I propose Tragic Villain be made a Super Trope for things like Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, Sympathy for the Devil, Tragic Monster, ex. We create a new trope for what Tragic Villain was meant to be (a villain who knows what they are doing is wrong, regrets it, but does so anyway thinking they have no choice), Tragic Decisions Villain is the first thing to come to mind, any better ideas?
edited 24th Mar '17 12:19:46 PM by Ferot_Dreadnaught
I like the idea of making Tragic Villain a supertrope. I think that could help a lot with the issues.
Morally Conflicted Villian maybe?
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
The Unknown
Agreeing with the supertrope idea.
I have no ideas for names.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
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What? I thought Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds is the supertrope.
According the list of Super Tropes: it is not. None the tropes we are discussing fall under them.
Morally Conflicted Villain sounds good. That would get my vote.
Sorry, what are you linking the Super-Trope page for?
Anyways...
But then you said earlier that...
That means WDOW is the supertrope, right?
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
The link to the Super-Trope page was to determine if Tragic Villain was already there (it's not) and get a better idea of what Super Tropes entail.
When I said "which would fit better under Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds", I didn't mean that WDOW should be the Super Trope, I meant that many of the misuses of the current definition of Tragic Villain would fit under there better.
But then that won't make WDOW a subtrope to Tragic Villain with the latter's definition.
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
Not to it's current definition, no. But the point of this thread is that Tragic Villain is being overly broadly used compared to the intended definition.
My proposal is that, Given that Tragic Villain is a broadly used term, is that we convert Tragic Villain into a super trope that would encompass WDOW and the new trope we make to cover the current definition of Tragic Villain.
And what's the new definition would be?
Speaking of which, in Sliding Scale of Anti-Villains, the "tragic/sad" type has WDOW as its umbrella trope.
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
I propose "Woobie Anti-Villain" become "Tragic Anti-Villain", with "The defining trope for this type of Anti-Villain would be a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds." becoming "The defining trope for this type of Anti-Villain would be a Tragic Villain.", with WDOW being moved where Tragic Villain currently is on the list.
If Tragic Villain is about villain who are evil for tragic reason, WDOW seem like a sub-trope, since it is a specific kind of tragic reason (driven to vicious insanity by tragic circumstance).
Well, a "woobie" means that they're abused and wronged in a dramatic way, and for WDOW, this leads to them becoming a bad guy?
And Tragic Villain doesn't require the villain being a "woobie", right? Is that what you're saying?
What other subtropes Tragic Villain would have?
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
No necessarily, no.
Preliminary Tragic Villain sub-trope include: Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, Tragic Monster, Sympathetic Murderer, Trapped in Villainy, Brainwashed, Forced into Evil, and likely more as we think about it.
edited 1st Apr '17 3:14:59 PM by Ferot_Dreadnaught
Still my fave
Reluctant Monster and Reluctant Psycho would fit as well, yeah? Oh, and what about Anti-Villain?
edited 2nd Apr '17 11:05:30 AM by NervousShark
Fangs of the relentless thousand
Anti-Villain a supertrope of this. It also covers bad guys with not-so-evil deeds, "good" guys who does extreme things, and actual good guys getting antagonized for some reason.
Anyway, back to Tragic Villain's current definition ("doing evil by their own will, and then show remorse") sounds like either Dirty Business or Necessary Evil. So... that is covered?
We don't need justice when we can forgive. We don't need tolerance when we can love.
Bumping.
It looks like this thread is loosing steam. I say we just close this thread with the definition of Tragic Villain (they have enough morality to know and regret their actions but continue to commit them thinking they have no choice) and remove any examples that don't fit that definition.
Maybe revise the trope description to fit this definition.
Would agree
To ending this thread and settling for clean-up, or revising the definition to acknowledge they need to be remorseful?
Both? I don't see them as mutually exclusive, and both are issues needing to be addressed.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
The supertrope idea looks like Sympathetic Villain, rather than tragedy. The current description is pretty good, but I'll create Sandbox.Tragic Villain later today for review.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Thanks. I got an idea for a new trope; "Not So Tragic Villain", who subverts their sympathetic backstory by the following:
- Committing atrocities greater then or irrelevant to what their tragic pasts would justify.
- Their perceived "tragedy" stems from Moral Myopia, It's All About Me, and/or lies, so it stops being sympathetic under scrutiny.
- Others have gone through the same tragic events but remained more sympathetic, invalidating their excuse.
Also, made a few edits to the sandbox. Let me know if that's a problem.
edited 23rd Apr '17 3:47:04 PM by Ferot_Dreadnaught
This entry under Main.Tragic Villain was changed from:
- Berserk has the demonic Apostles, the main villains of the series, were once humans who made a Deal with the Devil during a moment of ultimate despair. The Godhand, their leaders, had the same origin.
To:This highlights a misuse I frequently observe: that it is used for any villain with a tragic circumstance behind their evil (which would fit better under Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds) when it is supposed to refer to villains who have the moral agency to know what they're doing is wrong and evil, but do so anyway, remorsefully, because they think they have no other choice.
If so, the following should be exempt:
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I'd say a clean-up and possible revision of the trope description are in order.