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bluepork
topic
09:41:41 AM May 13th 2014
edited by 86.133.146.170
If you look on ja.wikipedia.org and translate it, it is revealed that Wolf has encountered James McCloud in his tenure, Fox McCloud's mom is alive yet estranged from him, and a lot more mind-bending canon that didn't reach the west. It's mostly sourced from All There in the Manual and Word of God from the Japanese equivalent to Nintendo Power. Should examples be based on this or should it all just go under Trivia?
Ian20
topic
09:46:07 PM Dec 23rd 2012
Why does Wolf get the ...weird... "Leatherman" trope? Just because he wears black? How is that fair?
Gatomon41
topic
09:08:26 PM Jun 28th 2012
Well, I tired my best to clean up the character pages as well as I can. But it still a chaotic mess. My suggestion is redo the organization (instead of by game appearance, just do it by affiliation. Also, the character images need work.
Tylendal
topic
03:04:47 AM May 8th 2012
I'm not sure what it would go under, but I'm pretty sure Pigma's line "Daddy screamed reeeaal good before he DIED!" deserves some sort of mention.
Gilgameshkun
topic
12:28:14 AM Aug 31st 2011
edited by Gilgameshkun
I present incomplete articles for Star Fox 1, Star Fox 2, Star Fox 64, Farewell, Beloved Falco, Star Fox Assault and Star Fox Command. Someone already started a Star Fox Adventures article. The Farewell article is missing the comma in its title, but I didn't know how to add it — how can this be fixed? Anyway, it would be a good idea to start migrating title-specific tropes to each works page. They all have character sheet links, but they all redirect to Star Fox for now. But I actually wonder whether it might be better to have separate character sheets for at least some of them, such as Star Fox SNES for 1 and 2 and Star Fox 64 for everything in the Continuity Reboot onward.
Gilgameshkun
topic
11:43:05 PM Feb 20th 2011
We should start making pages for each of the Star Fox titles, including the comics and Manga. This series not only spans multiple titles, but multiple gaming genres, and new articles for each of the titles would be appropriate. This may not even need to be a consensus issue — someone can start the different articles and keep this one as an article for the overall series.
Gilgameshkun
topic
06:24:45 AM Feb 4th 2011
With all due respect, the Hard Gay entry is stronger than subjective. It is an invoked trope, intended to be obvious within cultural context. Just because there is potential for disagreement in another culture does not make the trope subjective. If Values Dissonance between audiences without followup research determined the basis of every disagreement, there would be nothing but subjective tropes. There has to be a threshold of objectivity, and a trope merely being foreign does not make it subjective if it is objective in cultural context. So this is objective in Japan, even if it is unfamiliar in another country.
Ookamikun
06:26:59 AM Feb 4th 2011
Let's just say Leon is essentially Camp Gay in Japan but it's missed out when brought over. Think of Catherine/Birdo, Poison, etc.
Gilgameshkun
06:36:33 AM Feb 4th 2011
edited by Gilgameshkun
Yeah. It's not Fanon if Leon was merely Bowdlerized in localization. Wolf barely even needed that — the obscurity of his tropes protected him.

Besides, most of the time in the past when someone disagreed on this, they admitted they either didn't care about the Japanese contexts, or they somehow figured that the game has diverging Canon based on market localization (an assumption which is its own can of worms). All the disagreement I've ever encountered on this issue has been based on Values Dissonance, Small Reference Pools and/or assumptions that We All Live in America, incurious of any other context. Believe me, I've heard all of these, and it usually immediately becomes an issue of domestic politics to them. Americanitis is not a basis of objectivity, and it is internationally offensive when it tries to be, especially considering that many of us are not from the United States or Western countries. There has to be a greater bridge of understanding, and that usually comes through immersion and study.

I know disagreements are going to exist. They're always going to exist in some esoteric context. There's always going to be someone who doesn't like something and wants to dispute it. I am willing to amicably explain things, but a persistent state of Did Not Do The Research has to have its natural consequences.

Uh, I hope I haven't been too much of a Motor Mouth. Sometimes I seem to be incapable of saying simple things with brevity.
Gilgameshkun
05:32:52 PM Feb 5th 2011
By the way, it is true that the Hard Gay trope itself is under trope repair, and it will probably be split in two — one for macho gay, and another for camp muscle. Wolf is of course not camp muscle. Camp outfit at most, but he's very masculine.
Gilgameshkun
11:40:58 PM Feb 20th 2011
Hard Gay mentions changed to Manly Gay, per the completed split.
67.58.249.220
topic
10:51:28 AM Dec 27th 2010
How is Wolf "Tsundere" and "Hard Gay"? What about him fulfills the stereotype? I ask because he is my favorite character.

i.e, where is the evidence to substantiate these claims?
Gilgameshkun
01:06:54 PM Dec 27th 2010
edited by Gilgameshkun
Well, Tsundere is a character who alternates a lot between angry and calm. And Wolf certainly has his calm, rational moments, particularly with Fox. This is also where the two characters most connect during their Enemy Mine moments.

Hard Gay is stereotype mainly in Japan, where a macho, hyper-masculine guy who flaunts his muscles is actually the more common gay stereotype than Camp Gay (which is historically more common in the West). Wolf not only does this, but is a Leatherman, and in Super Smash Bros. Brawl he's an explosion of Hard Gay accessories — open vest, sleaveless low-collar shirt to show his rippling biceps and Carpet of Virility, leather pants, pink/black boots, fingerless leather gloves, etc. Behavior-wise, his dominance towards other male characters (especially Fox or Leon, and especially gems like "I'm going to be the one to tan your hide!") plays directly into this very masculine, very homoerotic stereotype. It may not always be evident to the Western eye, but to the Japanese eye, Wolf is extremely gay. This was not something made so obvious at first, but he was gradually Flanderized to this point. Now he's practically one of the Village PeopleMr Fanservice for gay men (the way Krystal is for straight men), and generally fun for straight audiences as well.

Anyway, that he's gay or Tsundere is not a big deal. Tsundere is a very common character device in anime and manga. And Leon is even gayer still. And they're both extremely popular in Japan. He's still the same Wolf — you probably just won't find him or Leon going on dates with girls. On the contrary, the general Japanese Fanon has Wolf's eye on Fox, with Fox not 100% unreceptive. But fans in Japan usually treat Fox as bi anyway — Fox and Falco (who is usually treated as either Straight Gay or Asexual) are the single most popular Fan-Preferred Couple of any kind, more than Official Couples. But that kind of LGBT Romance has a much larger and more robust appeal in Japan anyway, where its staple audience are teenage girls and housewives (actual gay men generally prefer something else). Otherwise, you probably wouldn't find the phenomenon of the gay romance family film, like Arashi No Yoru Ni.
67.58.249.220
02:29:49 PM Dec 27th 2010
Hello,

I appreciate your answer. I have another question. Is Brawl the only game that he appears to be "gay"?

Is there anything in the canonical games that would otherwise hint to this? (e.g, Assault, Command), things such as quotes, etc, in these games? I can't really follow with Brawl. Perhaps it was just the way the developers wanted him to look in that game? Something that resembled his Assault / Command design, but new?

I understand what you've written; the reason I ask is because Brawl, to me, is not technically canon. I would personally prefer if he didn't go out with anyone; not because I am gay. I believe that it wouldn't "fit" with his personality.

I apologize if my questions aren't written properly. I am kind of in a hurry.

Thank you.

Gilgameshkun
06:40:19 PM Dec 27th 2010
edited by Gilgameshkun
Well, Brawl isn't the neatest candidate for canon, but their characterizations aren't necessarily contradictory. But the Hard Gay actually started at least with Assault, which is when they really started to Flanderize his personality.

Anyway, at least with Fanon, I doubt you'd have to worry much about Wolf going on dates. Japanese fanon doesn't see him as the romantic/relationship type — just the opposite, someone who's more likely to skip courting rituals and head directly to the bedroom. It's not to say that he has no feelings or affections, but he doesn't beat around the bush in pursuit of what he wants. This also is frequently the case in the Western fandom, at least in the portions of the fandom where Values Dissonance is not as big an issue, and when Krystal isn't the perpetual topic.
67.58.249.220
08:16:02 PM Dec 27th 2010
edited by 67.58.249.220
Hello, You listed the issues with Wolf in Brawl about the Hard Gay stereotype. What about Wolf in Assault puts him into this category?

Ah, that's good to hear. I don't believe that fanon is canon, though..
Gilgameshkun
09:06:06 PM Dec 27th 2010
edited by Gilgameshkun
Well, his appearance, while compatibly Hard Gay, was not as obvious back in Assault. The hints were more in his dialogue. For example, "I'll be the one to tan your hide!" was probably his most nuclear Hard Gay moment in the game. Most of his dialogue with Fox made many a gamer either blush red in the face or grin with amusement.

No, fanon is not canon. I'm just saying you won't encounter that much in fanon or canon. :3 Wolf doesn't seem the kind of person to do be in a One True Pairing. It would mean he'd have to settle with one person. XD I more often see people think of him as a Memetic Molester or Memetic Sex God. Interestingly, I have seen some fan material of Wolf where has a son, but you don't see much of a mother around and he appears mainly as a single parent.

Yeah, I study the Star Fox fandom a lot. My Fan-Art collection alone includes thousands of files, which I keep meticulously tagged and catalogued.
67.58.249.220
09:58:44 PM Dec 27th 2010
edited by 67.58.249.220
I thought it was "And if anyone is gonna tan your hide, it's gonna be me." (unless you are quoting from the Japanese version) I could be wrong, but then again, I haven't played in a while. Ah, would you mind listing some of those quotes? XD

That's great then. IMHO, it wouldn't "match" for him to have an interest.

Very interesting hobby. =]
Gilgameshkun
10:26:01 PM Dec 27th 2010
Ahh, my mistake. Anyway, here's the script in English:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/gamecube/561297-star-fox-assault/faqs/36164
67.58.249.220
10:40:52 PM Dec 27th 2010
Er, could you list some that "made many a gamer either blush red in the face or grin with amusement."? XD

I'm sorry for the stupid question..
Gilgameshkun
11:08:04 PM Dec 27th 2010
Wolf: Don't hesitate. When the time comes, just act.

Fox: Wolf...

This still makes me grin. XD
67.58.249.220
10:39:42 AM Dec 28th 2010
edited by 67.58.249.220
XD

I don't see him as a Memetic Molester or Memetic Sex God. I see him as an anti-hero who has morals (to say the least).

Is there a way I could email you or something the other questions that I have? I don't really want to spam the Trope board..
Gilgameshkun
05:09:09 PM Dec 28th 2010
edited by Gilgameshkun
Well, I'm not saying he doesn't have morals. Maybe more like Values Dissonance, assuming at the end of the day that he actually is good. And I don't really see someone like Wolf as playing by anyone else's rules but his own.

Well, sure. I'd send you a private note, but are you even registered? Anyway, my email is (remove each letter "x"): diarxmad@gxmail.com
Phred
topic
09:28:53 PM Jun 14th 2010
It's getting a bit big, when does Star Fox get to split up into individual game articles like Mario and Zelda?
Gilgameshkun
10:20:22 PM Jun 15th 2010
Well, it already has a character sheet. How about we move all individual character tropes to the sheet?
Gilgameshkun
topic
08:35:13 PM Jun 1st 2010
I want to start a character sheet. :3 I'll see what I can start out with.
Gilgameshkun
08:35:41 PM Jun 1st 2010
Oh, there already is one. o.o I'll just see what I can add to it. X3
Ganondorfdude11
topic
12:47:47 AM Apr 10th 2010
In regards to the implications all over the article that Falco is gay, I really don't see where anyone is getting that. It's clear from context that Falco's "I'll never get a girlfriend" line has nothing to do with sexuality. The comic "Farewell, Beloved Falco" is all about Falco's headstrong individualism that lands him in trouble. It's a clear I Work Alone statement to be sure, but implies nothing else. The implication both in the comic and in the games is that Falco and Katt used to be an item. This seems to be taking a statement out of context and reading Fan Yay into it to make it into Falco's coming out moment, when it really isn't.
Evilest_Tim
03:02:47 AM Apr 10th 2010
Also, Falco is a bird and therefore has no willy.
Gilgameshkun
03:13:40 PM Apr 10th 2010
edited by 192.133.129.160
Actually, Falco and Katt did not used to be an item. Falco has never had a girlfriend, so that inconclusively proves that he's gay!
Ganondorfdude11
10:45:40 PM Apr 10th 2010
It is not certain that Falco is not straight simply because he said he never wanted a girlfriend. I know plenty of otherwise straight people who choose to remain single. The "I fly solo" part makes it more of an I Work Alone thing than anything else. In context, the line is about his desire to be a loner than anything else, and there have never been any indications whatsoever that Falco is gay. The way Katt flirts with him and teases him seems to indicate that they might have had something in the past. In Command, they even reconcile in some of the endings. While it's clear that Falco has no interest in Katt at the time of the comic, there's nothing to indicate that he didn't in the past. Note that Falco is also a brash and impulsive speaker. Just because he said he would never want a girlfriend then does not mean that is an indicator of his sexuality. At the end of the comic, Falco leaves Star Fox and says he'll never come back. That didn't last very long. At the least, Incompatible Orientation should be changed to I Work Alone, because that's pretty much what he was saying to her.
Ganondorfdude11
10:59:12 PM Apr 10th 2010
edited by Ganondorfdude11
Note that the very same conversation in the comic shows blatant hints that Falco was jealous because Katt had moved on and found someone else. He appears cool and smooth when telling her "I fly solo, babe" and then is stunned when Katt tells her she's found someone. The clear indication is that Falco and Katt were flirting with each other. If anything, this makes it even more clear that Falco was at one time interested in Katt. Also in 64, while he seems to shrug off her advances, the ending for Zoness has him say, "Katt...where'd you go?" This is hardly typical of his Deadpan Snarker nature, and he seems to genuinely care about her even if he's annoyed by her shameless flirting. The clear implication from the comic and the games is that either they used to be together, or wanted to be, but Falco's loner nature and stubbornness is preventing that from ever happening.
Gilgameshkun
11:37:06 PM Apr 10th 2010
edited by 192.133.129.160
That's not the impression I got from that page at all. Falco came to me in a dream and told me that he wasn't straight...how much more credible can you get than that?
Gilgameshkun
12:08:28 AM Apr 11th 2010
edited by 192.133.129.160
By the way, I'm 32/M/WA. What's your sign, little boy?
Gilgameshkun
03:38:33 AM Apr 11th 2010
edited by 192.133.129.160
I just asked two other friends to join us tonight...hope you don't mind! It's okay, they're my wise friends.
Ganondorfdude11
08:20:03 AM Apr 11th 2010
I don't need to get into a huge discussion about social norms and such in a game about cartoon animals in spaceships, but the fact that Falco doesn't want to be with Katt is not automatic confirmation that Falco isn't straight or isn't interested in women at all. Falco is a loner. The fact that he doesn't want a girlfriend is hardly conclusive evidence that he isn't attracted to women at all. Katt's response is also pretty obviously about the blue cat. I don't know how it could be about Falco when Falco is rejecting her. Falco's "..." response says a lot about this. Falco and Katt have a lot of sexual tension, which appears to be the entire point of their interactions. Like I said before, I know plenty of straight people who choose to remain single for various reasons. This does not mean that they are never interested in the opposite sex. Note Falco's reason for never wanting a girlfriend: "I fly solo, babe." It says more about his headstrong individualism than it does about his sexuality. To say that this statement means Falco is not attracted to women is to read too much into it. This is to approach the text with the idea that Falco's orientation is what is keeping them apart, and not his individualism, which is the very reason he gives to Katt as to why they can't be together.

Ganondorfdude11
10:06:02 AM Apr 11th 2010
If we cut down the the very core of this argument, the simple fact that Falco does not want a girlfriend does not mean that he is not straight. That's a simple logical fallacy. All straight men must want girlfriends, or else they are not straight. The very real possibility that Falco is straight and simply chooses to remain single hasn't been considered.
Gilgameshkun
12:40:23 PM Apr 11th 2010
edited by 192.133.129.160
Sorry, I'm just not seeing any women. I want Falco to be gay so I can feel accepted. I guess I have a few unresolved sexual tensions of my own!
Gilgameshkun
01:16:13 PM Apr 11th 2010
edited by 192.133.129.160
If you excuse me awhile, this argument is pretty stressful. I originally edited in all sincere honesty, and I didn't foresee this kind of protracted argument — or indeed any argument at all. And the argument being presented is stressful because this troper sees it as a Values Dissonance Discredited Trope with Unfortunate Implications that impeach his honest, unbeguiling perceptions as a troper by treating him like some common fanboy or spammer. I know tropers disagree on a lot of things, but they respond to each other's entries with thoughtful alternatives in a sub-bullet or an either-or format. They shouldn't try to delete disagreeing trope entries entirely. Like 99% of tvtropers, I'm not trying to troll or start flame wars. I'm just another 32 year old sitting in my mom's basement, trying to find women online.
192.133.129.160
02:47:50 PM Apr 11th 2010
edited by 192.133.129.160
Gilgameshkun, get off the forums, fool
192.133.129.160
05:14:24 PM Apr 11th 2010
edited by 192.133.129.160
Take your unresolved sexual tensions somewhere else
Gilgameshkun
08:19:34 PM Apr 11th 2010
edited by 192.133.129.160
Third friend wants to join...full house tonight!
Gilgameshkun
02:41:39 AM Apr 12th 2010
edited by 192.133.129.160
Sorry for the rather schizophrenic edits in the past few hours. I changed it back to the last way it was when someone besides me edited it. I just keep trying to find something that meets the homosexual view I have of Falco...is that so wrong?
Ganondorfdude11
06:37:46 AM Apr 12th 2010
I just have to say at this point that I'm not really interested in continuing this discussion. Believe what you want, just don't act like it's canon.
Gilgameshkun
08:29:46 AM Apr 12th 2010
edited by 192.133.129.160
A bit clearer headed now, but I'm not going to do any heavy makeout sessions with my wise friends for now.

Really though — why be exasperated by this? Is it that people (my friends and I) can come to the conclusion that I did? This is just our common wisdom. I'm very, very sorry if you came to a different conclusion and you seem bothered by bumblebees, and that's why I want to give it Subjective Trope parallel coverage if I can. You just have to understand — if you think our conclusions are retarded, you're not alone. You seem to be trying to tell us that your conclusion can be the only right one, and that our conclusion is actually quite stupid. But we found our reasonings pretty solid and sensible, and what you've been saying has seemed like a kind of denial. And so, while I wasn't just going to abandon the common wisdom my friends and I live with, it seems you also feel very strongly about this, and I wanted you to have a voice in this as well, because I want to work well with my fellow tropers. I mean, I'm still not convinced that your opinion, as valid as it is, is the common consensus understanding from reading this story. I mean, is our conclusion offensive? Is that what it is? Does it break some vases? Honestly, I don't really care much about a lot of vases — a good vase is hard to find.

See, this is the common wisdom as my friends and I understand it: If a guy never wants a girl, or a girl never wants a guy, then they are not straight. If a guy never wants a guy, or a girl never wants a girl, then they are not gay. We each read this story, and the consensus was, "He has never had a girlfriend, he never wants a girlfriend. He is not straight." So yeah, on a fundamental level, at some time in their lives, all straight guys want girlfriends. That's what it means to be straight. So if canon is that he never wants a girlfriend, then as we understand it, yeah, by extension, canon is that he is not straight. I'm really very, very sorry if you have found that so bothersome. In our post-heteronormative life where everyone is equal, we found what you said to be rather hard to take seriously at face value. And this is not exactly the kind of thing I expected ever to be debating on such a progressive literary site as tvtropes.

I'm not saying any of this to be rude or insulting or condescending or anything like that — I've been trying every step of the way to be as honest, rational and homosexual as possible. It's just that you have seemed rather aggressively opposed to my edits in such a way as you preferred initially to delete them rather than simply ban my account so I can't talk. It comes across as not as hostile and dismissive as it should be, and it sours our friendly cooperative working environment here on tvtropes. And when that happens, I lube up my chocolate starfish and think of Falco. If stress increases, I play soundclips of Falco's voice on repeat. So how, in practical terms, is a tvtropes argument like this avoided before it becomes so exasperating? (I don't really expect Ganondorfdude11 to respond again — I'm just genuinely curious what tvtropes protocol for this is. Some of the rules as I understand them, beyond "don't be a jerk", seem murky.)

I hope this meets the standard of tvtropes etiquette. None of my comments on this page have been good or correct, besides my above admission of homosexual behaviors and tendencies.
Evilest_Tim
12:25:07 AM Apr 20th 2010
edited by Evilest_Tim
The sexual preferences of an imaginary bird are Serious Business.

Also, your conclusion is stupid. If someone isn't interested being close to a real woman that does not mean they are not straight (we have this thing called pornography, which allows one to have sexual preferences entirely seperately from relationships) and since the character has also never expressed any interest in males, you're equally saying they can't be gay. By your argument Falco's sexual preferences would be best described as "none."
Gilgameshkun
01:26:43 AM Apr 21st 2010
Please don't condescend on purpose — it's poor etiquette.

And Asexuality is already one of the options. The only reason gay is a possible option is because he said he'll never have a girlfriend, but didn't say he'd never have a boyfriend, so it's only a possibility of ambiguity.

This has to be taken seriously as an interpretation — five of my friends who had also read the manga, agreed that asexual or gay are serious possibilities, and all but one agreed that heterosexuality and bisexuality are impossible for Falco. They all had pretty much the same first conclusions that I did.

If you'll excuse me, I'm not all that interested in a flame war over this. This will be a topic of Internet Backdraft if the argument continues. I can appreciate that not everyone is going to have the conclusions I do, but that just shows that tropers vary. Allow this variation that naturally occurs among tropers, and use the sub-bulleted and either-or format that is established for such tvtropes entries.
Evilest_Tim
01:41:05 AM Apr 21st 2010
edited by Evilest_Tim
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/affirming-the-consequent/

It doesn't have to be taken seriously at all, it's based on faulty logic ("if he was gay he'd say he wasn't interested in relationships with women, he says he isn't interested in relationships with women, therefore he is gay" is the if A then B, B, therefore A format) and simply does not follow as a sound conclusion. Also, considering we have no method of determining if your friends exist, it's rather pointless mentioning how many of them agree with you. Also this.
Gilgameshkun
02:21:13 AM Apr 21st 2010
edited by Gilgameshkun
Once again, I'm not saying he is gay. Just that he's non-straight — in this case, asexual or gay as possibilities. Honestly, why take such issue with this? I edited in good faith based on my normal understandings. Aren't tropes — especially subjective ones (and Your Mileage May Vary) — based largely on human perception? What is so wrong with arriving at such a conclusion as I, JKRoo, Panch, Russ, Negger and Adam have? Not everyone takes heteronormativity seriously or thinks it must be assumed as default, as there are Unfortunate Implications of heterosexism with that. There do seem to be significant cultural differences here — some people can't take seriously with a straight face the notion that a man who has and will forever have no interested in girlfriends, is straight. Non-heterosexuality is just more believable than the notion of a heterosexual voluntarily celibate pornography-consumer who pushes away enamored women at every opportunity while swearing off women forever. No insult has been intended — this is just how we perceive things based on human wisdom and human experience.

Also, this site specifically doesn't require hard citations anyway. This isn't Wikipedia, and I was never under the impression that it was supposed to function like Wikipedia. I just edit honestly — when given the first ever sign that someone disagreed with me, I polled other readers I knew to see whether my conclusion was not Natter. I'm satisfied it's a reasonably probable conclusion a person may arrive at, even if it's not going to be unanimous among all tropers. But importantly, as a troper, the alternatives are things someone like me simply does not find credible. And if I as a troper entered something I believe is false, that would be vandalism, not troping.
Gilgameshkun
03:35:13 AM Apr 21st 2010
edited by Gilgameshkun
You know, it occurred to me that my impressions may also be influenced by my exposure. I've been browsing the Japanese internet for years. In particular, I have a membership at pixiv (a Japanese general online art community with more than 10 million submissions). It has a vast amount of Star Fox fanart on it — I gave up browsing after 38 pages. There is lots of fanart of Falco. And a great proportion of it is Fox X Falco. I've seen it so much I don't really give it a second thought. Out of curiosity, I did a pixiv Japanese language database-wide search for fanart of Falco and Katt. I got a grand total of three hits, and none of them were romance scenes. Out of further curiosity, I searched for Falco and...Krystal (to search for some more possible variety of established Falco fan pairings), and nothing in the few results came up resembling a pairing. Now, while it can be said that slash fanart exists, it is quite another matter when not only does heterosexual fanart not seem to exist, but a large chunk of all Falco fanart I could find is gay. This is more than just Fan Yay — I have never seen Japanese heterosexual fanart of Falco (or of Wolf or of Leon for that matter), but I've seen Japanese heterosexual fanart of Fox, and of Peppy, and of Slippy, and of Panther. In the Japanese fandom, I have never found evidence that anyone regards Falco as straight, and mountains of evidence that he is considered non-straight. Oh, and as for Krystal? pixiv search has seven pages of her, but I didn't find much of Fox X Krystal — maybe ten or twelve results max, the rest was primarily of her alone with her Most Common Superpower. Suffice it to say that Falco (alone or X Fox) is significantly more common.
Evilest_Tim
04:40:46 AM Apr 21st 2010
edited by Evilest_Tim
I believe who draws who rogering who has more to do with the character's appeal to the fan than it does some immutable truth about the character; you won't see much straight fanart of Castlevania characters or the male cast of Devil May Cry either (and Nero's gal Kyrie is treated roughly the same way by the gay fandom, who want her to fuck off and die so Dante can jump Nero's bones, save by the five people who want Dante to jump Credo's bones instead). I do not, on the other hand, believe listing every single homosexual character trope is even slightly justified by gay men being hot for the brightly-coloured one.

I would also note for the record that your assumption that not desiring an emotional relationship means not desiring sex either is, um, rather flawed. See the existence of prostitution, the different-woman-every-night character, etc. Sure, your version appeals to you, but I don't think you can seriously claim you're any major portion of the overall fanbase (most of whom could give a rat's ass about the sexuality of any given character and have never seen or heard of the manga anyway) or that it's really necessary to go on about fan yay for six bullet points. There certainly is yay (I'm fairly sure Assault was thought up by a bunch of Fox / Wolf shippers) but let's not go overboard.
Clifftothemax
01:05:52 PM Apr 21st 2010
Sorry, Gilgameshkun, but Evilest_Tim is right on almost every point he has made for this case. Aside from anything else, this is NOT a big issue, so don't keep turning it into one.
Gilgameshkun
03:48:43 PM Apr 21st 2010
edited by 173.53.138.12
Even if most of the fandom hasn't seen a mango, that doesn't change that a mango is a fruit — it's just obscure fruit. So it must be considered with equal weight along with the rest of the fruit.

And for the record, most of the Fox X Falco fanart I ever saw was not explicitly sexual (though the stuff I drew myself certainly was!) — it was mostly romantic in nature. Not even flagged "18". It was like the light Boys Love you see in Japanese entertainment all the time.

I am convinced that what you're trying to say is inherently more believable than my impressions, but I do love me some gay Falco!

Now, remove duplications if you must — it is copyediting, and trope entries can sometimes be sloppy or redundant when initially entered, and need some cleaning.

I am at peace with my dream of a homosexual Falco. You are entitled to your own, and invited to add what you believe to be sensible. Just bear in mind that I will edit over your views so mine remains supreme.
Gilgameshkun
10:16:46 PM Apr 21st 2010
I'd like not to discuss this anymore. There's been too little progress. And most of the time it feels less like a discussion and more like a flame war. As long as I am troping honestly, I really don't care much if someone else disagrees with it, especially so strongly that they feel the need to start or maintain a flame war. Just add to a list of alternatives and move on. If you question the likelihood of the conclusion, you ask questions, of course, but you always keep it respectful. We at tvtropes hammer out alternatives all the time, and in my experience, it is usually done without personal attacks. Be annoyed, fine. But ultimately, as long as I'm troping honestly and not deleting other people's content, I don't care if someone else thinks it's annoying, because I'm not responsible for it then. Someone else will always think something's annoying, whether it was intended or not. The least we can do is always keep our cool as much as possible. No anger. No disrespect. No personal attacks. No flames. Only wikilove — The Other Wiki has at least taught me that much.

Now let's all wikilove, shall we?
Gilgameshkun
10:27:57 PM Aug 15th 2010
My previous comment still stands.
ermod
07:58:33 AM Aug 31st 2011
After reading all of this, all I can say is that if this is a Wiki, some seriousness should be kept rather than shoving fanon, word of dante and oneīs own fantasies into the articles. Falco being gay is a thing of fanon, as itīs never stated wheter heīs gay, straight or whatever, although he leans more towards traight due to Katīs very existence. As other tropers said above me, the famous comic line means he flies alone, nothing more. Trying to get homosexual implications out of it isnīt bad, but trying to put them as canon or at least intend it, is not good, particularly because it has the unfortunate implications that a straight guy who doesnīt have or doesnīt want a relationship must be gay. Canīt say anything for Wolf and Leon since the articles say that said characterization comes from the japanese dubbings which I have not checked, although knowing Nintendo, Iīm almost certain that itīs just either intended to be just for the gags or as nods to the fandom (Wolfīs Brawl costumes), rather than the character being gay, or should I say, portraying the character as gay in such serious business way.

Sorry if I sound aggresive, but when I read a Wiki, as much as a fun one as this is, I expect some consistency, not fans trying to shove fanon into the articles (and before someone jumps at me for being a bigot or whatever, my rant is about forced fanon in general, wheter itīs about the characterīs sexuality, alternate fan continuities, or whatever)
Gilgameshkun
07:51:31 PM Aug 31st 2011
edited by Gilgameshkun
It's not all that far-fetched. Nintendo has done LGBT characters before, and We Don't All Live In America. It's really not a big deal when it appears in Japanese fiction, even when the audience includes children. See Arashi No Yoru Ni for a famous example of this.

But that was a debate from more than a year ago, before tvtropes adopted its current objective/subjective page splits for articles. But more important than that is Assume Good Faith and the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment. The fanon (Falco is Straight Gay) is in YMMV, and the canon (Falco is Incompatible Orientation) is in main. Wolf being Manly Gay is also sometimes in YMMV only because he didn't specifically have a Have I Mentioned I am Gay? moment, but the heavy Japanese Manly Gay tropes are invoked all the same. And Camp Gay Leon actually did have a Have I Mentioned I am Gay? moment.

And please be careful when you start suggesting things like editors are necessarily pushing "one's own fantasies". This isn't a Yaoi Fangirl fantasy or Ho Yay Shipping. It's about details, and about fundamental respect. In the real world (as you so raised), a straight guy being insecure about being potentially thought of as gay, raises issues of heterosexism and heteronormativity, both of which are forms of homophobic bias. Gay people pretty much never get offended when people think they're straight, because there's nothing wrong with being straight, and a polite correction can fix the misunderstanding if it truly becomes relevant. Likewise, for straight people, the polite real-world response is "Actually, I'm straight" without visibly getting offended, because there's nothing wrong with being gay either.

In 2011, it's a worse implication for an editor to make real-world presumptions (rather than in-story topics) that are fundamentally demeaning to gay people. In articles, that's actually the kind of language that's routinely deleted on sight.

Now...I'm sure you probably mean well. Understanding and respect between editors is very important. Just please understand. This is an old and exhausting topic symptomatic of a long-since Broken Base. I'd rather swig a large gulp of motor oil than continue to discuss it.
Ganondorfdude11
topic
06:17:18 PM Mar 9th 2010
edited by Ganondorfdude11
Ganondorfdude11: Okay, looks like a bit of an edit war is going on over Character Derailment. Is it just me or does it seem to be more of a difference in VA than character? Leon in particular was always a babbling lunatic in the Japanese version, so the Assault version is actually fixing Character Derailment. And some of his 64 dialogue shows the penchant for sadism that would later become an integral part of his character.
Evilest_Tim
08:06:59 PM Mar 9th 2010
edited by Evilest_Tim
I think you're confusing yourself here; about half the cast undergoes Character Derailment of one form or another in Assault; Pigma from just being unpleasant to being a hideous bag of grease who apparently owns the universe's first coal-powered spaceship and has pulled enough resources out of his ass to build a giant space station; Andrew from a whiny nobody who happened to be related to Andross to someone who could command all Venom's remaining fleet (because a fighter pilot is surely a sound choice for such a thing), Wolf from arch-nemesis to more or less just a slightly Darker and Edgier version of Fox himself, Falco's sarcasm being toned way down, etc. Leon's personality seems to have completely changed (the change in VA takes him from smug creep to gibbering lunatic, and this is a change to his character).
Ganondorfdude11
10:16:06 PM Mar 9th 2010
Pigma was always a lying double-crossing scumbag. This is the guy who always rubs in James' death every chance he got in 64 and was willing to sell out his planet for money in the backstory. Andrew was Andross's nephew. He would command a lot of respect from the remnant of Andross's empire. Things like that have happened all the time in the real world. Napoleon III was able to come to power just by having the same last name as Napoleon Bonaparte, even though he was completely incompetent (much like Andrew). Wolf was always supposed to be Fox's Evil Counterpart. He has almost zero characterization in 64 except "I'm evil!" Falco's toned down sarcasm could simply be Character Development. He's become less of a jerk as time goes by. Leon simply was a change in VA. Look at his 64 dialogue and it's obvious what the real intention for his character was. The Japanese VA played him like a lunatic from the very beginning, so if anything this was a reversal of Character Derailment. Change in VA does not Character Derailment make.
Ookamikun
10:00:16 AM Mar 10th 2010
^That.

Note that while the 64 dialog is definitely memorable, their voice acting isn't the exact representation of the characters themselves. This was the time were dubs don't really carry over the character.

Wolf was a generic "evil version", with nothing but just lol evil, but they solved this in Assault where they gave him personality.

Leon was borderline Ax-Crazy mixed with Cold Sniper, and Assault tried to bring it to the dub (teasing Falco, etc.), but of course you won't really see it unless you see the Japanese game (where even in the original he'd tease Falco as well).

Falco was always a Jerk with a Heart of Gold, and his sarcasm is still present. Sure it's not over-the-top, but it's there.
Clifftothemax
12:35:07 PM Mar 10th 2010
Yeah, I really don't think any of this counts of Character Derailment. I mean heck, the characters have actually been expanded upon somewhat more deeply since the "64" days.

I mean, yeah, Leon and Wolf were more "posh" in terms of their voice-work, but otherwise they haven't changed as much in terms of their characters aside from becoming Anti-Hero material when the situation demands it. Otherwise, it's just a case of different voices, making it feel like the characters have derailed where none has occurred.
Evilest_Tim
03:05:27 AM Apr 10th 2010
I think the potential issue is that characters becoming more complicated isn't necessarily a good thing (see also the Sonic series), and that some people preferred the universe when it was more simplistic.
Ookamikun
08:44:43 AM May 21st 2010
Note that the characters aren't complicated. They just gave them personalities. Having one =/= becoming complicated. Again, Wolf went from random thug to a genuine rival.
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