Discussion VideoGame / StarFox

Also, Falco is a bird and therefore has no willy.

Actually, Falco and Katt did not used to be an item. Falco has never had a girlfriend, so that inconclusively proves that he's gay!

It is not certain that Falco is not straight simply because he said he never wanted a girlfriend. I know plenty of otherwise straight people who choose to remain single. The "I fly solo" part makes it more of an I Work Alone thing than anything else. In context, the line is about his desire to be a loner than anything else, and there have never been any indications whatsoever that Falco is gay. The way Katt flirts with him and teases him seems to indicate that they might have had something in the past. In Command, they even reconcile in some of the endings. While it's clear that Falco has no interest in Katt at the time of the comic, there's nothing to indicate that he didn't in the past. Note that Falco is also a brash and impulsive speaker. Just because he said he would never want a girlfriend then does not mean that is an indicator of his sexuality. At the end of the comic, Falco leaves Star Fox and says he'll never come back. That didn't last very long. At the least, Incompatible Orientation should be changed to I Work Alone, because that's pretty much what he was saying to her.

Note that the very same conversation in the comic shows blatant hints that Falco was jealous because Katt had moved on and found someone else. He appears cool and smooth when telling her "I fly solo, babe" and then is stunned when Katt tells her she's found someone. The clear indication is that Falco and Katt were flirting with each other. If anything, this makes it even more clear that Falco was at one time interested in Katt. Also in 64, while he seems to shrug off her advances, the ending for Zoness has him say, "Katt...where'd you go?" This is hardly typical of his Deadpan Snarker nature, and he seems to genuinely care about her even if he's annoyed by her shameless flirting. The clear implication from the comic and the games is that either they used to be together, or wanted to be, but Falco's loner nature and stubbornness is preventing that from ever happening.

That's not the impression I got from that page at all. Falco came to me in a dream and told me that he wasn't straight...how much more credible can you get than that?

By the way, I'm 32/M/WA. What's your sign, little boy?

I just asked two other friends to join us tonight...hope you don't mind! It's okay, they're my wise friends.

I don't need to get into a huge discussion about social norms and such in a game about cartoon animals in spaceships, but the fact that Falco doesn't want to be with Katt is not automatic confirmation that Falco isn't straight or isn't interested in women at all. Falco is a loner. The fact that he doesn't want a girlfriend is hardly conclusive evidence that he isn't attracted to women at all. Katt's response is also pretty obviously about the blue cat. I don't know how it could be about Falco when Falco is rejecting her. Falco's "..." response says a lot about this. Falco and Katt have a lot of sexual tension, which appears to be the entire point of their interactions. Like I said before, I know plenty of straight people who choose to remain single for various reasons. This does not mean that they are never interested in the opposite sex. Note Falco's reason for never wanting a girlfriend: "I fly solo, babe." It says more about his headstrong individualism than it does about his sexuality. To say that this statement means Falco is not attracted to women is to read too much into it. This is to approach the text with the idea that Falco's orientation is what is keeping them apart, and not his individualism, which is the very reason he gives to Katt as to why they can't be together.

If we cut down the the very core of this argument, the simple fact that Falco does not want a girlfriend does not mean that he is not straight. That's a simple logical fallacy. All straight men must want girlfriends, or else they are not straight. The very real possibility that Falco is straight and simply chooses to remain single hasn't been considered.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing any women. I want Falco to be gay so I can feel accepted. I guess I have a few unresolved sexual tensions of my own!

If you excuse me awhile, this argument is pretty stressful. I originally edited in all sincere honesty, and I didn't foresee this kind of protracted argument — or indeed any argument at all. And the argument being presented is stressful because this troper sees it as a Values Dissonance Discredited Trope with Unfortunate Implications that impeach his honest, unbeguiling perceptions as a troper by treating him like some common fanboy or spammer. I know tropers disagree on a lot of things, but they respond to each other's entries with thoughtful alternatives in a sub-bullet or an either-or format. They shouldn't try to delete disagreeing trope entries entirely. Like 99% of tvtropers, I'm not trying to troll or start flame wars. I'm just another 32 year old sitting in my mom's basement, trying to find women online.

Gilgameshkun, get off the forums, fool

Take your unresolved sexual tensions somewhere else

Third friend wants to join...full house tonight!

Sorry for the rather schizophrenic edits in the past few hours. I changed it back to the last way it was when someone besides me edited it. I just keep trying to find something that meets the homosexual view I have of Falco...is that so wrong?

I just have to say at this point that I'm not really interested in continuing this discussion. Believe what you want, just don't act like it's canon.

A bit clearer headed now, but I'm not going to do any heavy makeout sessions with my wise friends for now.

Really though — why be exasperated by this? Is it that people (my friends and I) can come to the conclusion that I did? This is just our common wisdom. I'm very, very sorry if you came to a different conclusion and you seem bothered by bumblebees, and that's why I want to give it Subjective Trope parallel coverage if I can. You just have to understand — if you think our conclusions are retarded, you're not alone. You seem to be trying to tell us that your conclusion can be the only right one, and that our conclusion is actually quite stupid. But we found our reasonings pretty solid and sensible, and what you've been saying has seemed like a kind of denial. And so, while I wasn't just going to abandon the common wisdom my friends and I live with, it seems you also feel very strongly about this, and I wanted you to have a voice in this as well, because I want to work well with my fellow tropers. I mean, I'm still not convinced that your opinion, as valid as it is, is the common consensus understanding from reading this story. I mean, is our conclusion offensive? Is that what it is? Does it break some vases? Honestly, I don't really care much about a lot of vases — a good vase is hard to find.

See, this is the common wisdom as my friends and I understand it: If a guy never wants a girl, or a girl never wants a guy, then they are not straight. If a guy never wants a guy, or a girl never wants a girl, then they are not gay. We each read this story, and the consensus was, "He has never had a girlfriend, he never wants a girlfriend. He is not straight." So yeah, on a fundamental level, at some time in their lives, all straight guys want girlfriends. That's what it means to be straight. So if canon is that he never wants a girlfriend, then as we understand it, yeah, by extension, canon is that he is not straight. I'm really very, very sorry if you have found that so bothersome. In our post-heteronormative life where everyone is equal, we found what you said to be rather hard to take seriously at face value. And this is not exactly the kind of thing I expected ever to be debating on such a progressive literary site as tvtropes.

I'm not saying any of this to be rude or insulting or condescending or anything like that — I've been trying every step of the way to be as honest, rational and homosexual as possible. It's just that you have seemed rather aggressively opposed to my edits in such a way as you preferred initially to delete them rather than simply ban my account so I can't talk. It comes across as not as hostile and dismissive as it should be, and it sours our friendly cooperative working environment here on tvtropes. And when that happens, I lube up my chocolate starfish and think of Falco. If stress increases, I play soundclips of Falco's voice on repeat. So how, in practical terms, is a tvtropes argument like this avoided before it becomes so exasperating? (I don't really expect Ganondorfdude11 to respond again — I'm just genuinely curious what tvtropes protocol for this is. Some of the rules as I understand them, beyond "don't be a jerk", seem murky.)

I hope this meets the standard of tvtropes etiquette. None of my comments on this page have been good or correct, besides my above admission of homosexual behaviors and tendencies.

The sexual preferences of an imaginary bird are Serious Business.

Also, your conclusion is stupid. If someone isn't interested being close to a real woman that does not mean they are not straight (we have this thing called pornography, which allows one to have sexual preferences entirely seperately from relationships) and since the character has also never expressed any interest in males, you're equally saying they can't be gay. By your argument Falco's sexual preferences would be best described as "none."

Please don't condescend on purpose — it's poor etiquette.

And Asexuality is already one of the options. The only reason gay is a possible option is because he said he'll never have a girlfriend, but didn't say he'd never have a boyfriend, so it's only a possibility of ambiguity.

This has to be taken seriously as an interpretation — five of my friends who had also read the manga, agreed that asexual or gay are serious possibilities, and all but one agreed that heterosexuality and bisexuality are impossible for Falco. They all had pretty much the same first conclusions that I did.

If you'll excuse me, I'm not all that interested in a flame war over this. This will be a topic of Internet Backdraft if the argument continues. I can appreciate that not everyone is going to have the conclusions I do, but that just shows that tropers vary. Allow this variation that naturally occurs among tropers, and use the sub-bulleted and either-or format that is established for such tvtropes entries.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/affirming-the-consequent/

It doesn't have to be taken seriously at all, it's based on faulty logic ("if he was gay he'd say he wasn't interested in relationships with women, he says he isn't interested in relationships with women, therefore he is gay" is the if A then B, B, therefore A format) and simply does not follow as a sound conclusion. Also, considering we have no method of determining if your friends exist, it's rather pointless mentioning how many of them agree with you. Also this.

Once again, I'm not saying he is gay. Just that he's non-straight — in this case, asexual or gay as possibilities. Honestly, why take such issue with this? I edited in good faith based on my normal understandings. Aren't tropes — especially subjective ones (and Your Mileage May Vary) — based largely on human perception? What is so wrong with arriving at such a conclusion as I, JKRoo, Panch, Russ, Negger and Adam have? Not everyone takes heteronormativity seriously or thinks it must be assumed as default, as there are Unfortunate Implications of heterosexism with that. There do seem to be significant cultural differences here — some people can't take seriously with a straight face the notion that a man who has and will forever have no interested in girlfriends, is straight. Non-heterosexuality is just more believable than the notion of a heterosexual voluntarily celibate pornography-consumer who pushes away enamored women at every opportunity while swearing off women forever. No insult has been intended — this is just how we perceive things based on human wisdom and human experience.

Also, this site specifically doesn't require hard citations anyway. This isn't Wikipedia, and I was never under the impression that it was supposed to function like Wikipedia. I just edit honestly — when given the first ever sign that someone disagreed with me, I polled other readers I knew to see whether my conclusion was not Natter. I'm satisfied it's a reasonably probable conclusion a person may arrive at, even if it's not going to be unanimous among all tropers. But importantly, as a troper, the alternatives are things someone like me simply does not find credible. And if I as a troper entered something I believe is false, that would be vandalism, not troping.

You know, it occurred to me that my impressions may also be influenced by my exposure. I've been browsing the Japanese internet for years. In particular, I have a membership at pixiv (a Japanese general online art community with more than 10 million submissions). It has a vast amount of Star Fox fanart on it — I gave up browsing after 38 pages. There is lots of fanart of Falco. And a great proportion of it is Fox X Falco. I've seen it so much I don't really give it a second thought. Out of curiosity, I did a pixiv Japanese language database-wide search for fanart of Falco and Katt. I got a grand total of three hits, and none of them were romance scenes. Out of further curiosity, I searched for Falco and...Krystal (to search for some more possible variety of established Falco fan pairings), and nothing in the few results came up resembling a pairing. Now, while it can be said that slash fanart exists, it is quite another matter when not only does heterosexual fanart not seem to exist, but a large chunk of all Falco fanart I could find is gay. This is more than just Fan Yay — I have never seen Japanese heterosexual fanart of Falco (or of Wolf or of Leon for that matter), but I've seen Japanese heterosexual fanart of Fox, and of Peppy, and of Slippy, and of Panther. In the Japanese fandom, I have never found evidence that anyone regards Falco as straight, and mountains of evidence that he is considered non-straight. Oh, and as for Krystal? pixiv search has seven pages of her, but I didn't find much of Fox X Krystal — maybe ten or twelve results max, the rest was primarily of her alone with her Most Common Superpower. Suffice it to say that Falco (alone or X Fox) is significantly more common.

I believe who draws who rogering who has more to do with the character's appeal to the fan than it does some immutable truth about the character; you won't see much straight fanart of Castlevania characters or the male cast of Devil May Cry either (and Nero's gal Kyrie is treated roughly the same way by the gay fandom, who want her to fuck off and die so Dante can jump Nero's bones, save by the five people who want Dante to jump Credo's bones instead). I do not, on the other hand, believe listing every single homosexual character trope is even slightly justified by gay men being hot for the brightly-coloured one.

I would also note for the record that your assumption that not desiring an emotional relationship means not desiring sex either is, um, rather flawed. See the existence of prostitution, the different-woman-every-night character, etc. Sure, your version appeals to you, but I don't think you can seriously claim you're any major portion of the overall fanbase (most of whom could give a rat's ass about the sexuality of any given character and have never seen or heard of the manga anyway) or that it's really necessary to go on about fan yay for six bullet points. There certainly is yay (I'm fairly sure Assault was thought up by a bunch of Fox / Wolf shippers) but let's not go overboard.

Sorry, Gilgameshkun, but Evilest_Tim is right on almost every point he has made for this case. Aside from anything else, this is NOT a big issue, so don't keep turning it into one.

Even if most of the fandom hasn't seen a mango, that doesn't change that a mango is a fruit — it's just obscure fruit. So it must be considered with equal weight along with the rest of the fruit.

And for the record, most of the Fox X Falco fanart I ever saw was not explicitly sexual (though the stuff I drew myself certainly was!) — it was mostly romantic in nature. Not even flagged "18". It was like the light Boys' Love you see in Japanese entertainment all the time.

I am convinced that what you're trying to say is inherently more believable than my impressions, but I do love me some gay Falco!

Now, remove duplications if you must — it is copyediting, and trope entries can sometimes be sloppy or redundant when initially entered, and need some cleaning.

I am at peace with my dream of a homosexual Falco. You are entitled to your own, and invited to add what you believe to be sensible. Just bear in mind that I will edit over your views so mine remains supreme.

I'd like not to discuss this anymore. There's been too little progress. And most of the time it feels less like a discussion and more like a flame war. As long as I am troping honestly, I really don't care much if someone else disagrees with it, especially so strongly that they feel the need to start or maintain a flame war. Just add to a list of alternatives and move on. If you question the likelihood of the conclusion, you ask questions, of course, but you always keep it respectful. We at tvtropes hammer out alternatives all the time, and in my experience, it is usually done without personal attacks. Be annoyed, fine. But ultimately, as long as I'm troping honestly and not deleting other people's content, I don't care if someone else thinks it's annoying, because I'm not responsible for it then. Someone else will always think something's annoying, whether it was intended or not. The least we can do is always keep our cool as much as possible. No anger. No disrespect. No personal attacks. No flames. Only wikilove — The Other Wiki has at least taught me that much.

Now let's all wikilove, shall we?

My previous comment still stands.

After reading all of this, all I can say is that if this is a Wiki, some seriousness should be kept rather than shoving fanon, word of dante and one´s own fantasies into the articles. Falco being gay is a thing of fanon, as it´s never stated wheter he´s gay, straight or whatever, although he leans more towards traight due to Kat´s very existence. As other tropers said above me, the famous comic line means he flies alone, nothing more. Trying to get homosexual implications out of it isn´t bad, but trying to put them as canon or at least intend it, is not good, particularly because it has the unfortunate implications that a straight guy who doesn´t have or doesn´t want a relationship must be gay. Can´t say anything for Wolf and Leon since the articles say that said characterization comes from the japanese dubbings which I have not checked, although knowing Nintendo, I´m almost certain that it´s just either intended to be just for the gags or as nods to the fandom (Wolf´s Brawl costumes), rather than the character being gay, or should I say, portraying the character as gay in such serious business way.

Sorry if I sound aggresive, but when I read a Wiki, as much as a fun one as this is, I expect some consistency, not fans trying to shove fanon into the articles (and before someone jumps at me for being a bigot or whatever, my rant is about forced fanon in general, wheter it´s about the character´s sexuality, alternate fan continuities, or whatever)

It's not all that far-fetched. Nintendo has done LGBT characters before, and We Don't All Live In America. It's really not a big deal when it appears in Japanese fiction, even when the audience includes children. See Arashi No Yoru Ni for a famous example of this.

But that was a debate from more than a year ago, before tvtropes adopted its current objective/subjective page splits for articles. But more important than that is Assume Good Faith and the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment. The fanon (Falco is Straight Gay) is in YMMV, and the canon (Falco is Incompatible Orientation) is in main. Wolf being Manly Gay is also sometimes in YMMV only because he didn't specifically have a Have I Mentioned I Am Gay? moment, but the heavy Japanese Manly Gay tropes are invoked all the same. And Camp Gay Leon actually did have a Have I Mentioned I Am Gay? moment.

And please be careful when you start suggesting things like editors are necessarily pushing "one's own fantasies". This isn't a Yaoi Fangirl fantasy or Ho Yay Shipping. It's about details, and about fundamental respect. In the real world (as you so raised), a straight guy being insecure about being potentially thought of as gay, raises issues of heterosexism and heteronormativity, both of which are forms of homophobic bias. Gay people pretty much never get offended when people think they're straight, because there's nothing wrong with being straight, and a polite correction can fix the misunderstanding if it truly becomes relevant. Likewise, for straight people, the polite real-world response is "Actually, I'm straight" without visibly getting offended, because there's nothing wrong with being gay either.

In 2011, it's a worse implication for an editor to make real-world presumptions (rather than in-story topics) that are fundamentally demeaning to gay people. In articles, that's actually the kind of language that's routinely deleted on sight.

Now...I'm sure you probably mean well. Understanding and respect between editors is very important. Just please understand. This is an old and exhausting topic symptomatic of a long-since Broken Base. I'd rather swig a large gulp of motor oil than continue to discuss it.

Let's just say Leon is essentially Camp Gay in Japan but it's missed out when brought over. Think of Catherine/Birdo, Poison, etc.

Yeah. It's not Fanon if Leon was merely Bowdlerized in localization. Wolf barely even needed that — the obscurity of his tropes protected him.

Besides, most of the time in the past when someone disagreed on this, they admitted they either didn't care about the Japanese contexts, or they somehow figured that the game has diverging Canon based on market localization (an assumption which is its own can of worms). All the disagreement I've ever encountered on this issue has been based on Values Dissonance, Small Reference Pools and/or assumptions that We All Live in America, incurious of any other context. Believe me, I've heard all of these, and it usually immediately becomes an issue of domestic politics to them. Americanitis is not a basis of objectivity, and it is internationally offensive when it tries to be, especially considering that many of us are not from the United States or Western countries. There has to be a greater bridge of understanding, and that usually comes through immersion and study.

I know disagreements are going to exist. They're always going to exist in some esoteric context. There's always going to be someone who doesn't like something and wants to dispute it. I am willing to amicably explain things, but a persistent state of Did Not Do The Research has to have its natural consequences.

Uh, I hope I haven't been too much of a Motor Mouth. Sometimes I seem to be incapable of saying simple things with brevity.

By the way, it is true that the Hard Gay trope itself is under trope repair, and it will probably be split in two — one for macho gay, and another for camp muscle. Wolf is of course not camp muscle. Camp outfit at most, but he's very masculine.

Hard Gay mentions changed to Manly Gay, per the completed split.

Well, Tsundere is a character who alternates a lot between angry and calm. And Wolf certainly has his calm, rational moments, particularly with Fox. This is also where the two characters most connect during their Enemy Mine moments.

Hard Gay is stereotype mainly in Japan, where a macho, hyper-masculine guy who flaunts his muscles is actually the more common gay stereotype than Camp Gay (which is historically more common in the West). Wolf not only does this, but is a Leatherman, and in Super Smash Bros Brawl he's an explosion of Hard Gay accessories — open vest, sleaveless low-collar shirt to show his rippling biceps and Carpet of Virility, leather pants, pink/black boots, fingerless leather gloves, etc. Behavior-wise, his dominance towards other male characters (especially Fox or Leon, and especially gems like "I'm going to be the one to tan your hide!") plays directly into this very masculine, very homoerotic stereotype. It may not always be evident to the Western eye, but to the Japanese eye, Wolf is extremely gay. This was not something made so obvious at first, but he was gradually Flanderized to this point. Now he's practically one of the Village People — Mr Fanservice for gay men (the way Krystal is for straight men), and generally fun for straight audiences as well.

Anyway, that he's gay or Tsundere is not a big deal. Tsundere is a very common character device in anime and manga. And Leon is even gayer still. And they're both extremely popular in Japan. He's still the same Wolf — you probably just won't find him or Leon going on dates with girls. On the contrary, the general Japanese Fanon has Wolf's eye on Fox, with Fox not 100% unreceptive. But fans in Japan usually treat Fox as bi anyway — Fox and Falco (who is usually treated as either Straight Gay or Asexual) are the single most popular Fan-Preferred Couple of any kind, more than Official Couples. But that kind of LGBT Romance has a much larger and more robust appeal in Japan anyway, where its staple audience are teenage girls and housewives (actual gay men generally prefer something else). Otherwise, you probably wouldn't find the phenomenon of the gay romance family film, like Arashi No Yoru Ni.

Hello,

I appreciate your answer. I have another question. Is Brawl the only game that he appears to be "gay"?

Is there anything in the canonical games that would otherwise hint to this? (e.g, Assault, Command), things such as quotes, etc, in these games? I can't really follow with Brawl. Perhaps it was just the way the developers wanted him to look in that game? Something that resembled his Assault / Command design, but new?

I understand what you've written; the reason I ask is because Brawl, to me, is not technically canon. I would personally prefer if he didn't go out with anyone; not because I am gay. I believe that it wouldn't "fit" with his personality.

I apologize if my questions aren't written properly. I am kind of in a hurry.

Thank you.

Well, Brawl isn't the neatest candidate for canon, but their characterizations aren't necessarily contradictory. But the Hard Gay actually started at least with Assault, which is when they really started to Flanderize his personality.

Anyway, at least with Fanon, I doubt you'd have to worry much about Wolf going on dates. Japanese fanon doesn't see him as the romantic/relationship type — just the opposite, someone who's more likely to skip courting rituals and head directly to the bedroom. It's not to say that he has no feelings or affections, but he doesn't beat around the bush in pursuit of what he wants. This also is frequently the case in the Western fandom, at least in the portions of the fandom where Values Dissonance is not as big an issue, and when Krystal isn't the perpetual topic.

Hello, You listed the issues with Wolf in Brawl about the Hard Gay stereotype. What about Wolf in Assault puts him into this category?

Ah, that's good to hear. I don't believe that fanon is canon, though..

Well, his appearance, while compatibly Hard Gay, was not as obvious back in Assault. The hints were more in his dialogue. For example, "I'll be the one to tan your hide!" was probably his most nuclear Hard Gay moment in the game. Most of his dialogue with Fox made many a gamer either blush red in the face or grin with amusement.

No, fanon is not canon. I'm just saying you won't encounter that much in fanon or canon. :3 Wolf doesn't seem the kind of person to do be in a One True Pairing. It would mean he'd have to settle with one person. XD I more often see people think of him as a Memetic Molester or Memetic Sex God. Interestingly, I have seen some fan material of Wolf where has a son, but you don't see much of a mother around and he appears mainly as a single parent.

Yeah, I study the Star Fox fandom a lot. My Fan Art collection alone includes thousands of files, which I keep meticulously tagged and catalogued.

I thought it was "And if anyone is gonna tan your hide, it's gonna be me." (unless you are quoting from the Japanese version) I could be wrong, but then again, I haven't played in a while. Ah, would you mind listing some of those quotes? XD

That's great then. IMHO, it wouldn't "match" for him to have an interest.

Very interesting hobby. =]

Ahh, my mistake. Anyway, here's the script in English:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/gamecube/561297-star-fox-assault/faqs/36164

Er, could you list some that "made many a gamer either blush red in the face or grin with amusement."? XD

I'm sorry for the stupid question..

Wolf: Don't hesitate. When the time comes, just act.

Fox: Wolf...

This still makes me grin. XD

XD

I don't see him as a Memetic Molester or Memetic Sex God. I see him as an anti-hero who has morals (to say the least).

Is there a way I could email you or something the other questions that I have? I don't really want to spam the Trope board..

Well, I'm not saying he doesn't have morals. Maybe more like Values Dissonance, assuming at the end of the day that he actually is good. And I don't really see someone like Wolf as playing by anyone else's rules but his own.

Well, sure. I'd send you a private note, but are you even registered? Anyway, my email is (remove each letter "x"): diarxmad@gxmail.com

Well, it already has a character sheet. How about we move all individual character tropes to the sheet?

Oh, there already is one. o.o I'll just see what I can add to it. X3

I think you're confusing yourself here; about half the cast undergoes Character Derailment of one form or another in Assault; Pigma from just being unpleasant to being a hideous bag of grease who apparently owns the universe's first coal-powered spaceship and has pulled enough resources out of his ass to build a giant space station; Andrew from a whiny nobody who happened to be related to Andross to someone who could command all Venom's remaining fleet (because a fighter pilot is surely a sound choice for such a thing), Wolf from arch-nemesis to more or less just a slightly Darker and Edgier version of Fox himself, Falco's sarcasm being toned way down, etc. Leon's personality seems to have completely changed (the change in VA takes him from smug creep to gibbering lunatic, and this is a change to his character).

Pigma was always a lying double-crossing scumbag. This is the guy who always rubs in James' death every chance he got in 64 and was willing to sell out his planet for money in the backstory. Andrew was Andross's nephew. He would command a lot of respect from the remnant of Andross's empire. Things like that have happened all the time in the real world. Napoleon III was able to come to power just by having the same last name as Napoleon Bonaparte, even though he was completely incompetent (much like Andrew). Wolf was always supposed to be Fox's Evil Counterpart. He has almost zero characterization in 64 except "I'm evil!" Falco's toned down sarcasm could simply be Character Development. He's become less of a jerk as time goes by. Leon simply was a change in VA. Look at his 64 dialogue and it's obvious what the real intention for his character was. The Japanese VA played him like a lunatic from the very beginning, so if anything this was a reversal of Character Derailment. Change in VA does not Character Derailment make.

^That.

Note that while the 64 dialog is definitely memorable, their voice acting isn't the exact representation of the characters themselves. This was the time were dubs don't really carry over the character.

Wolf was a generic "evil version", with nothing but just lol evil, but they solved this in Assault where they gave him personality.

Leon was borderline Ax-Crazy mixed with Cold Sniper, and Assault tried to bring it to the dub (teasing Falco, etc.), but of course you won't really see it unless you see the Japanese game (where even in the original he'd tease Falco as well).

Falco was always a Jerk with a Heart of Gold, and his sarcasm is still present. Sure it's not over-the-top, but it's there.

Yeah, I really don't think any of this counts of Character Derailment. I mean heck, the characters have actually been expanded upon somewhat more deeply since the "64" days.

I mean, yeah, Leon and Wolf were more "posh" in terms of their voice-work, but otherwise they haven't changed as much in terms of their characters aside from becoming Anti-Hero material when the situation demands it. Otherwise, it's just a case of different voices, making it feel like the characters have derailed where none has occurred.

I think the potential issue is that characters becoming more complicated isn't necessarily a good thing (see also the Sonic series), and that some people preferred the universe when it was more simplistic.

Note that the characters aren't complicated. They just gave them personalities. Having one =/= becoming complicated. Again, Wolf went from random thug to a genuine rival.