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Grimsnark
topic
07:53:36 AM Jun 19th 2014
Under Film we have a line about drugs/drug use... whoever the editor was that put that in, I think they were probably thinking in terms of dramas like Requiem for a Dream- but, if you count stoner comedies, then the vast majority of "drug use" films would not qualify. Cheech & Chong, Harold & Kumar... whatever Anna Faris is called in Smiley Face, those are clearly protagonists we are supposed to be cheering, and unless your audience is a bunch of hardcore prohibitionists, simply doing drugs (and acting dumb on drugs) doesn't really lead to this trope.
CabbitGirlEmi
topic
05:24:53 PM Mar 30th 2014
edited by 67.186.44.137
It hasn't even aired yet, but Gang Related seems to absolutely reek of it. I wish FOX would never make those kinds of shows again because that's why Lone Star failed.
ading
topic
05:30:39 PM Dec 8th 2013
Why was Sidekick deleted?
Fett
topic
12:19:54 AM Dec 8th 2013
Seriously guys, can we have some neutrality in the Spec Ops the Line entry? I get it, the some people feel the game is Rail Roading or unfairly judging the player, but that's on the game's YMMV page for a reason.

Yet we keep getting nattery edits that go on tangents about it or say that the game sold poorly.

The entry says that the game mocks the player and gives some quotes as examples, we don't need people adding "But it really, REALLY mocks you and it's totally unfair"
Aldo930
topic
02:10:22 PM Sep 10th 2013
I'd like to contest CatDog being on here... Especially since, after watching the series, there were many episodes where CatDog won. And I believe it may have been the point to have CatDog as the lone good guy in the show. It was in the theme song: "Alone in the world is the little CatDog... Out on the road or back in town, all kinds of critters putting CatDog down..."

Now, even though I liked the show, Ed, Edd n Eddy probably should be an entry here because there ARE people who feel that there are no likable characters in the show and that the stories are mean-spirited, like Rowdy C of TV Trash. Is that OK?
TheMalignancy
09:03:23 AM Mar 7th 2014
It's. A. Kid's. Show.

I'm pretty sure its intended audience are perfectly fine laughing at the jokes and not caring how unlikeable anyone is. I'm also pretty sure this doesn't apply when drama isn't actually the point of the show.
AvalancheOZ
topic
03:01:33 PM May 31st 2013
I really don't think that Darker than Black should be in here. None of the major factions are actually "evil", and while there are unambiguously evil characters, they all get defeated. The first season even has a pretty happy ending. The second season might fall into this for the first couple of episodes, but this changes when more of the story comes out.

I'll wait and see if anyone wants to contest this though before deleting the entry.
MasterGhandalf
topic
12:34:17 PM May 30th 2013
I'd contest Codex Alera. The entry admits it's only based on the first book, but doesn't really seem to understand what was going on. Threats of rape? Performed by one guy, Kord, who never gets a chance to go through with them (though he has in the past) and is killed off karmically at the end of the novel. Odiana's backstory is horrible, but is also exceptionally crappy by the standards of the setting and not really indicative of what the world as a whole is like. Too many antagonists? While the aforementioned Kord is pretty much totally evil, the three main antagonists are Fidelias (a Well-Intentioned Extremist), Aldrick (a Noble Demon) and Odiana (a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds). Most of the ordinary Alerans we meet aren't evil at all, just people trying to live their lives, and even Kord's eldest son wants out of the "family business" as a slaver. The same is true for the Marat- though intially played as brutal barbarians, it's eventually revealed that this is just one particularly cruel leader and his followers, and most Marat aren't any more malicious than anyone else; by the end of the novel, that leader is dead and his replacements are far less bloody-minded and willing to work for peace. At the end of the story, the day is saved, the Big Bad's plan is spoiled, the two most evil villains (Kord and Atsurak, the Marat war leader) are dead, and things are really looking up. The very worst thing that happens in the novel is that the Vord wake up thanks directly to our protagonists' actions, but the true significance of that won't be apparent until later in the series. Alera is a deeply flawed society, to be sure, but I'm not sure where the person who added this entry got the idea that it's such a total Crapsack World.
TheLunchster
topic
05:04:25 PM May 1st 2013
I'd like to contest the Ultimate Alien example. The way I read it, this trope is not just a general trope for "dark" things, but specifically about works where both sides are so abhorrent the audience doesn't care who wins. Ultimate Alien simply does not fulfill these criteria - we always prefer Ben and his team to whatever villain they are facing this week. The only episode which even comes close to this is the Absolute Power two-parter, and even that isn't really an example.
David7204
topic
12:11:22 PM Apr 28th 2012
edited by 129.118.196.22
In the Fallout 3 example, it's mentioned that you often have to side between factions who are both scumbags. When does this happen? Almost all of the quests have a clear 'good' faction, and the ones that don't are done well.

In the Tenpenny Tower quest, the leader of the ghouls turns out to be an asshole, but the player doesn't know that until after the quest is complete. Before that, he agrees to try and compromise with the tower residents.

The only two other times I can think of that qualify (in a very long game with lots of decisions) are the main quests of The Pitt and Point Lookout. Desmond is a demanding jerk in Point Lookout, but he keeps his word. In the Pitt, there's a whole lot of Gray and Gray morality, but I think it's done well enough not to qualify. Both characters have plasible, realistic reasons for doing what they do, and it makes sense for the player to have to choose.
R.G.
topic
11:12:43 AM Apr 25th 2012
Pick a 2000 AD title.

Any 2000 AD title.
Vert
topic
03:15:35 PM Dec 19th 2011
Could we possibly remove the idea that the Eastern Front was a case of Evil vs Evil? I'm not Russian and I absolutely despise the Soviet Union, for the most part, but it seems utterly wrong to state that the Soviet Union was just as bad as Nazi Germany, especially since the former was never as close to being as aggressive as the latter. I want to avoid a edit war, which is why I'm asking first, but it seems like a bad idea to have any real life examples anyway...
Azaram
03:39:59 AM Oct 11th 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor "The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор, 'Морити голодом', literal translation Killing by hunger) was a man-made famine in the Ukrainian SSR between 1932 and 1933. During the famine, which is also known as the "terror-famine in Ukraine" and "famine-genocide in Ukraine",[2][3][4] millions of Ukrainians died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[5]

Early estimates of the death toll by scholars and government officials varied greatly; anywhere from 1.8[6] to 12 million[7] ethnic Ukrainians were said to have been killed as a result of the famine. Recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4[8] and 7.5[9] million."

Probably why evil vs evil. (I wasn't the one who changed it, and this is a while after the fact...)
ninjadude853
topic
08:20:17 PM Sep 22nd 2011
Can i talk to someone about this? It's from the Code Geass entry:

It's already going that way early in Season One; the very first episode features Lelouch mind-controlling a platoon of soldiers into suicide and doesn't seem at all moved, and a few episodes later he carries out an operation which involves sacrificing his own troops without their knowledge as well as endangering and killing numerous noncombatants, making it rather difficult to sympathize with the protagonist.

Okay, i'm not going to try to deny that Code Geass fits this trope, because from what i can see, it does. But i am going to say that this particular entry seems a little harsh. Lelouch does some evil things, i can't (and wouldn't try) to deny that either. But other than the fact that it leaves out some information (like the fact that the Mooks were Asshole Victims). And most importantly: that part about him sacrificing his own troops a few episodes later? That's not even true.

I'm guessing that the person who posted that was talking about the battle of Narita, where he did not sacrifice his own troops, he sacrificed the JLF's troops. A dick move? Yes, but the only time he knowingly sacrificed his own soldiers was waaaaay at the end of the series. And he also didn't realize that his actions there would indanger the innocent civlians.

Basically, i'm asking someone to tone down the message and make it a little less biased against Lelouch. I'd do it myself, but as you can probably tell, i'm too biased towards Lelouch, therefore i can't really be trusted to edit it fairly. either.
cclosina
07:00:46 PM Feb 20th 2013
In fact code geass not qualify. For this trope apply, the two sides must be Equally bad, while Lelouch is a manipulative bastard, he's a Anti-Villain / Type V Anti Hero.

Code Geass is Black and Gray Morality. To qualify for this trope should be Black And Black Morality.

cclospina
topic
06:28:17 PM Feb 5th 2011
Remove Ninenties Anti Hero, Because they are still far less evil than the villains.
Natsu
09:33:43 AM Feb 7th 2011
edited by Natsu
No, not always. They were recurrently full-stop Psycho for Hire The Comedian-style character types, and yes they did breed extreme Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy in many readers (and even creators for that matter). There is no getting around that fact. Of course, nowadays video games recurrently take this just as far, or even further, so it's not as if it has ever been limited to one medium.
cclospina
12:43:36 PM Mar 24th 2011
nineties antiheroes vs villains is Black and Gray Morality, while the darkness induced for the apathy is of Evil Versus Evil
ading
01:59:34 PM May 5th 2013
Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy can, however, set in in a work that tries to be black and grey but allows the grey to become as dark as the black.
joeyjojo
topic
08:55:40 PM Sep 11th 2010
edited by joeyjojo
''One of Yahtzee's common criticisms of video-games with Black And Gray Morality is that often the writers fail to give either side of the game's conflict any sympathetic qualities, leaving the player fighting for/as an unlikeable group/character, against a group/character that are even worse. As mentioned in his review of Bad Company 2: Yahtzee: Is there not some third side to this conflict I can join? Preferably one that isn't full of dicks?''

that's not really true. it's more when gameplay and story fail to intersect resulting in Moral Dissonance. like In Bad Company where your own side are firing on you just to make the game harder or like in RPG where no minds you nicking stuff. He likes games where the hero is a bastard and the game knows it.
TheTamborineMan
topic
08:34:32 PM May 16th 2010
Cutting The Great Gatsby as an example, sice it seems like the person writing it hadn't actually read the book.
githyan
03:24:19 PM Sep 20th 2011
i have, and i think it should go their. all the characters, with the possible exception of the viewpoint character (and he isnt much better), are assholes, and all end up miserable or dead by the end.
CabbitGirlEmi
11:55:45 AM Mar 4th 2014
There's also a short story called "Paul's Case", which also qualifies. I was so frustrated with that story that I skimmed through it rather than read it. It's basically about some teenager who causes trouble at school, and either his dad hates him or he hates his dad, and also, he happens to be gay. Why not just have him be gay? He would be easier to sympathize with if he wasn't a Jerk Ass!
71.218.197.24
topic
03:38:32 PM Apr 10th 2010
hey hey my friend-nice site!
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