Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Nah, Lighty's still got to do Herzog and I think maybe one more.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

When it comes to Hezrog, it should be noted that his attack on the town, brutal as it was, was actually the result of a direct order he was given by Hitler himself, when he was still alive, to massacre the town & 800 residents as retaliation for a war-time sabotage.

So you could say that there's some "supernatural compulsion" going on. Just like the need he and his men had to guard the gold.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.

@ bobg: I can't see how that makes McLeach so much worse. He already decided on killing the kid as soon as he leads him to Marahute, being a Large Ham about killing him and toying with it folds right back into his one stand-out crime: trying to kill one child. That, and I'm not exactly in favor of lowering our standards because of the type of work he appears in just to make it easier for him to qualify: that's the reason there's a minimum heinousness standard in the first place. Occasional Exister already touched on how being a Vile Villain, Saccharine Show only goes so far if they fail that bar. Part of me thinks that this lax attitude with him is due mainly because we simply can't add his animal cruelty to his tally. Again, I think we should really distinguish between a villain who crosses the Moral Event Horizon and a villain who is a Complete Monster, because the former rarely crosses into the latter with one act; the only one I can immediately recall who managed that is Steele, and he was a rather stand-out case.

And on a sidenote, wasn't Harry going to bite off Kevin's fingers in the original Home Alone? Not saying he fits, but I recall him making it quite clear that he'd do several awful things to Kevin beyond just shooting him.

Re: The Horned King: No, it's not stated that the Cauldron Born cannibalize the Horned King's human minions. It's shown; the first thing they do when they're reanimated is to consume some of those unlucky bastards. It's even more graphic in a deleted scene apparently, where they jump into the rest of them to tear them limb from limb. Yes, this is a Disney movie.

@ Lightysnake: Can you please elaborate on what the comedy in the Dead Snow films is like? LogoP described Herzog's kills as being played for very dark Black Comedy, is that correct?

@ ACW: For Ripper, "boas" should be "boast", and the Antagonist Title pothole seems pretty useless. Also, please change the identity bit to "police detective Vince Magnotta, Doctor Claire Burton, or hacker Joey Falconetti". For Gothika, please make it "raping them repeatedly and filming it before finally killing them".

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For Pinhead from Hellraiser: Bloodline, I'll elaborate a bit more. His arc is pretty complex and in some sense inconsistent throughout the movies because they made stuff up on the fly without really planning for further sequels. Pinhead, or the Lead Cenobite, in the original Hellraiser and the first sequel Hellbound: Hellraiser II is an amoral extradimensional being who was once the human Captain Elliot Spencer, a British WWI veteran. The Cenobites, all of whom started as humans, are not ignorant of human morality (Dr. Channard became one, and he was knowingly pure evil), but have at some point forgotten their humanity and basically consider themselves above human ideas of right and wrong; "angels to some, demons to others". Pinhead and his retinu only take someone who summoned them first and can be reasoned with, a role he returns to in Hellraiser: Inferno and onwards.

The thing is, in the third (Hellraiser III: Hell on Earth) and fourth (Hellraiser: Bloodline), he's just completely evil with no shred of humanity or redemption. At the end of Hellbound the Cenobites were redeemed when they were returned to humans. A part of Pinhead's essence somehow survived and became a Made of Evil entity known as Pinhead Unbound, with his human soul Captain Spencer split into another entity. They are reintegrated into the same being in the climax, and Pinhead finds himself unable to harm the protagonist because of his human side, leading to him being resealed. That brings us to Hellraiser: Bloodline, which is... ambiguous in its chronology. By all accounts Pinhead by that point is a being with full possession of his faculties and the ability to choose right from wrong (as Pinhead Unbound and Captain Spencer are now one being again). He's just a total sadist who uses his rank in Hell to torture human victims and trying to plunge the world into Hell again. He kills a bunch of people in the 1990s, threatens a Fate Worse than Death to a child, and decapitates the protagonist in front of his family. When a demon princess named Angelique fails him, he drags her back to Hell and mutilates her to turn her into another standard Cenobite. In the future (Bloodline is split between three time periods with identical members of the LeMerchant family fighting the Cenobites), he kills another bunch of people and making clear his intent to torture and murder everyone on Earth for the fun of it before his canonical death. Angelique is noticeably less sadistic than Pinhead, at least while she's still in her human skin; for several centuries she seems to do... basically nothing. No plans for world conquest, no frequently torturing people to death (as far as we can see).

So Pinhead is really inconsistent across the movies, but in the chronological last entry he seems to fit every criterium. There is one thing that might be a redeeming trait; when he sees an invention that might trap the Cenobites in Hell, he calls it "a genocide waiting to happen". Whether this indicates any love for his fellow Cenobites, I don't know; the most he ever does is ordering them around or punish them for screwing up, and in his death scene he's merely whining that he, personally, cannot die and seems to forget about the rest of his associates who are also trapped on the ship.

Qualifier? Too ambiguous? You decide.

edited 25th Feb '15 7:21:41 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

So the way you say it, by the Grand Finale Pinhead up and lost his redeeming qualities and done enough that his Freudian Excuse doesn't mean squat. Once again, he is inconsitant (although the following Hellraiser movies, he is the same as he was before, but those where midquels before the future segments to Bloodlines). Mind you, if I had to list the villains of the big name slasher franchises from most evil to least evil, I'd consider Pinhead to be the least evil among the slasher villains (on par with Jason Voorhees and just above Leatherface). Even taking the events of Bloodline into account, I can't say it changes on account of the midquels.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

Speaking of Reacher, Lamarr needs a few touchups.

• The Visitor ^note Running Blind in the US: The killer turns out to be FBI Profiler Julia Lamarr, who uses her position to cover up her crimes. The killer murders at least four women (and is in the process of murdering another when stopped by Reacher) by hypnotizing them to swallow their own tongues, leaving them to suffocate slowly to death and leaving no evidence. The first victim, as well as the true target, was Lamarr’s stepsister, who was chosen to receive Julia’s father’s inheritance, despite that she was even going to share it with Lamarr. A cold-blooded Diabolical Mastermind, the killer only cares about itself, and revels in their intelligence throughout the process.

edited 25th Feb '15 8:57:26 AM by randomtroper89

That would be what, Michael > Freddy > Leatherface > Jason?

Change "its" to "their."

edited 25th Feb '15 7:26:21 AM by KyleJacobs

Works for me. Just add (and is in the process of murdering another when stopped by Reacher) after "four women".. What about that other Reacher one? Did we reach a consensus?

Probably should have the addition in parentheses.

Actually, please just add that and the other one (if it's been approved) to Jack Reacher.

edited 25th Feb '15 8:07:24 AM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

I wouldn't feel comfortable including Pinhead.

Going to have to agree with those aiming to cut McLeach and Sykes. Knight of Cerebus, sure, but not really CM.

Going to also agree with keeping that Agent Carter villain off the list.

I'd like to add some other two examples for Fender Tremolo already posted in the film section.

1. In one scene he and his pirates massacre a fishing village in a wedding day just to steal a boat. Fender personally kills the bride in front of the groom slashing her throat and later kills the groom impaling with a wooden pipe through the mouth.

2.During the final fight once he finds out who Gibson really is he tries to stab Hayley in front of him, after givng her a Forceful Kiss, just to hurt him. He ends up killing Nady instead.

I agree with cutting McLeach and probably Sykes as well.

edited 25th Feb '15 9:29:31 AM by AustinDR

Why did we suddenly go back to talking about them? Sykes is the only one a possible point of contention's been raised on. Nothing new has been presented for Mcleach.

Because Beast brought them up?

And it's been pointed out multiple times that no new information has come up with Mcleach, who's been discussed before.

That shouldn't mean to keep the discussion going constantly unless there's new info like there was in the past.

Anyways, I had to send my computer in for repairs, so I'm on one that's harder to write on. Hang tight in the meantime while I do responses and writeups for Herzog, Krazka, Light, etc.

Cool. And IIRC also efortposts for Honest, Killzone baddies, other Toriko CM? (Is Jonah Wade a no-go?)

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

@ Beast: I don't think it's a reasonable argument to contrast Pinhead with a bunch of other horror villains in heinousness as a possible disqualifier. Plus, it's the wrong standard: Pinhead tends to get lumped in with Freddy, Jason, and Michael, but he's not a Slasher Movie villain. Honestly, he's closer to the Tall Man in terms of villain archetype, and only Freddy really matches him in the eventual scope of his plans.

@ Kyle Jacobs: I'd say it's more Freddy > Michael > Leatherface > Jason. Freddy is a child killer/pedophile in addition to a serial killer, and by the sixth film he just says "screw it, I'll just move from town to town until literally everyone dies". Of course, unlike Michael, Krueger is an immortal Reality Warper. Give a sadistic killer superpowers and what is he going to become except an Omnicidal Maniac?

@ TV Rulez Again: I don't know. Julia is also listed for Hellbound: Hellraiser II only, on the basis that she didn't qualify until the second film.

edited 25th Feb '15 10:36:00 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

Has the question of whether Mcleach is more heinous than Medusa been brought up before?

edited 25th Feb '15 10:35:15 AM by TVRulezAgain

I'll vote cut on Mc Leach and Sykes if we're voting on them.

I believe so. She was definitely brought up and discussed with him. Also, Mcleach is still heinous by standards of the films unless medusa goes insanely over and above him.

she doesn't

edited 25th Feb '15 10:41:13 AM by Lightysnake

She actually doesn't. One of the main issues that people have brought up with McLeach and Sykes was that we, as the audience, knew that the animals were sentient, but Sykes and McLeach probably had no way of knowing. There was also the question on while McLeach's torture on Cody is wrong, did it meet the borderline heinous standard?

I'm just not really sure.

edited 25th Feb '15 10:52:53 AM by AustinDR

Does torture and attempt murder of a child by feeding him to crocodiles meet the baseline heinous standard?

once again, all covered previously...we should let this lie now.

Again, we are talking about the psychological torture and attempted murder of a child. That more than qualifies as baseline heinousness.

McLeach meets the baseline to be considered. He's well over the MEH. I just don't know that he actually crosses into CM territory.

Well, the issue came up. Several times. He was confirmed each one.

Looks like the Duncans were good:

• Worth Dying For: Jacob Duncan runs a rural Nebraska farmer town like a tinpot dictator straight out of Ruritania, along with his brothers Jonas and Jasper and his son Seth. They run a trucking business whose service they force upon every family in town. Anyone who refuses or disagrees with them would find themselves beaten up and their properties ruined by a gang of ex-college football players on the Duncans’ payroll. The Duncans, who also beat their wives, use this business to smuggle children from Asia to the heartland United States for sex trafficking. All of them are pedophiles who murder every children they've grown bored with and make a shrine and photographic memento of every corpse (there are about 60 in all, 2 or 3 every year). Even Reacher, a former MP who's seen all kinds of corpses himself, explicitly admits he regrets having taken a look at the barn where the Duncan holds those shrines.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts