During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
You're not telling us anything we don't already know, and your entire objection seems to be based around a complete misunderstanding of the original comment, and of everything said since.
Genuinely heroic characters should not be listed. Hiruma, is not genuinely heroic. Kaz, who I just mentioned, is definitely not genuinely heroic. They are bastards, a word which is in the trope name for a reason.
This trope is primarily villainous. There can be antiheroes who make it—just as there are antiheroic examples of most villainous tropes that are not CM—but they are rarer, and the more heroic they are, the less they belong here.
Now, here's a candidate I'm very sad to propose for cut, mostly because I love the dude to death and he'd be a beautiful intersection of CM and this... if he wasn't well, just such a monster. Anyways, the entry:
- Magnificent Bastard: The Major, who demonstrates his charisma and passion with a speech of his love of war, all to motivate his troops to begin a war that levels London, while manipulating all of his enemies into doing exactly what he wants them to do when he wants them to do it. He seems to conduct everything like the conductor of a symphony, which is even lampshaded at one point. He also came up with a plan to defeat his biggest enemy, the near immortal vampire, Alucard, while still managing to maintain his own humanity on his own terms, and not to any external powers. Considering that Alexander Anderson sacrificed his own humanity in order to try overcoming Alucard, much to Alucard's sorrow, this is an impressive achievement for the Major. When all is said and done, the Major may as well have succeeded.
As I said, my exact problem with The Major, as wonderfully diabolical as he is, being listed is that, while certainly no Smug Snake, he's just so, so Sadistic, Ax-Crazy and omnicidal that I can't see him gaining the proper, sane-level respect needed for this trope. Additionally, his Face Death with Dignity moment comes across less as humanizing and more the final moments of a mad man so devoted to war and bloodshed that he's just thrilled to be another death in it all.
So, with a heavy heart, I move we cut Herr Major. Thoughts?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
True, while never saying anything racist himself, the fact he and his troops are decked out in Swastikas makes the respect angle a tad difficult.
edited 6th May '18 10:04:04 PM by 43110
The Major's out of his mind to an extent that would be highly unusual for this trope, and his mad love of war and Nazi associations make respecting him really hard. Add that intersections between MB and CM, while not impossible, are very rare, and yeah he probably shouldn't be there.
Goku Black
Continuing with the painful cuts. I'd suggest removing Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls. Now sadly he does do fairly well with this trope but as things start to fall apart for him, he starts to devolve into a Villainous Breakdown that puts him out of this trope. Still a pretty great villain but not this trope I feel.
- Gravity Falls gives us Bill Cipher, a seemingly omnipotent being who has his grand apocalyptic plan completely mapped out from the start, has been putting the pieces into place for years, and doesn't allow any apparent defeat to be a setback, only a delaying of the inevitable. Bill is fond of making deals with people in which he gives them something they want or think they need, and in return, they can be used and likely screwed over by him later so that he can reap even better benefits. As it's said, he would use or possess anyone in order to get what he wants, shown clearly when while possessing the time traveler Blendin, he takes advantage of a distraught, emotional Mabel and tricks her into giving him a dimensional rift belonging to their uncle, and then smashes it, creating the tear between the two worlds, bringing about Weirdmageddon. He only appears in a few episodes, but his presence is felt even when he's gone, and while undeniably diabolical and sadistic, he's also hilarious and great fun to watch and speculate about.
edited 6th May '18 11:02:54 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Absolutely cut, Bill is a fantastic Chessmaster but in addition to being a legit Smug Snake, his Villainous Breakdown is way too undignified for him to belong.
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Hey I want to cleanup the MCU examples. I'm going to bring them here, so could you please help me as I'm not sure on a few.
edited 6th May '18 11:53:00 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Goku Black
Alright here are the MCU examples. Some of your thoughts are appreciated:
- Marvel Cinematic Universe:
- Iron Man: Obadiah Stane manipulated Tony Stark's kidnapping, sold weapons to both sides of an armed conflict, and was thorough enough to eliminate the witnesses not on his payroll. Who knows what else he'd been up to before the film started? If he'd just killed Stark instead of leaving him to die of heart failure, he'd have succeeded with his plans to mass-produce Iron Man units. But we see his brilliance slip up when he tasks the very terrorists that he sells missiles to with killing the guy that makes the missiles! Of course they would kidnap Tony and force him to work for them!
- Loki of Asgard. In Thor, he Manipulates the events behind his brother's banishment, then helps the king of the Frost Giants attack Odin only to kill him and launch what seems to be a justified attack on Jotunheim, all while keeping Thor in the dark on Earth. Like the above example, his downfall is in lying to Thor about what's happening in Asgard, as it motivates Thor to become worthy of his hammer and reveals Loki as the villain after Thor reunites with Sif and the Warriors Three. Loki's role as a magnificent bastard is solidified in The Avengers when he kicks off the film by opening a portal, stealing the Tesseract, killing about a dozen people, and taking control of the minds of Hawkeye and Selvig. He later reveals his plot to seize control of Earth—all fueled by a personal vendetta against Thor. And in Thor: The Dark World, Loki goes from being confined to a jail cell, hated by all, never to see his mother in person again, for the rest of his very long life to the King of Asgard, having faked his own death and taken on Odin's countenance. As a result, he now possesses the Tesseract, which was his goal for The Avengers. Bravo, Loki - you little shit!
- Nick Fury is a rare heroic example; he constantly lies and manipulates everyone around him, and he's good enough at it that even when they don't like working with him, they still end up helping him in the way he wants them to. In fact, if it wasn't for him, in Captain America: The Winter Soldier Hydra would have successfully eradicated S.H.I.E.L.D. and launched Project Insight. Although his tendencies to do this were deconstructed, as it showed that no one really trusted him and sometimes they outright refused to follow his plan... except that he also anticipates this and counteracts accordingly to adapt to their behavior, or at least offers a reasonable explanation. He is just that good.
- Helmut Zemo, from Captain America: Civil War. He frames Bucky for an attack on the UN to start a manhunt against him, then after Bucky is captured, he impersonates a UN interrogator to activate Bucky's Trigger Phrase and cause him to remember the other Winter Soldiers. Finally, he leaks his ruse to the media, counting on Tony Stark following Cap and Bucky to the Hydra compound in Siberia so he can accomplish his real plan: show Tony evidence that Bucky killed his parents, causing him to fly into a murderous rage and give Bucky and Cap a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown. By the end, in spite of being captured by T'Challa, he has still succeeded in what he planned to do: tear the Avengers apart. Even more impressive is that Zemo is a normal man with no powers, relying on his planning skills and The Power of Hate.
- Vulture from Spiderman Homecoming. He took what was left of a construction company and turned it into a powerful underground arms dealership by stealing Chitarui technology from Damage Control. He kept this up for eight years without leaving enough evidence to attract the FBI, and his operation was on such a small scale that the Avengers never noticed it. If not for Spider-Man's interference and a subordinate's incompetence, he would have likely been able to keep doing it till the day he retired. He's charismatic, a good boss for the most part (one accidental death the entire movie), and his jobs usually involve convey robberies from Iron Man! He's also able to deduce Spider-Man's identity from just a few minutes of conversation with his daughter's date, and keeps it to himself to use later rather than getting into a fight right there.
- Erik 'Killmonger' Stevens/N'Jadaka from Black Panther belongs here as well. A highly trained black ops assassin, he was already reputed taking down governments before confronting T'Challa/Black Panther, which was emphasised brilliantly in his introduction scene. He then set up his confrontation by killing his co-conspirator Ulysses Klaw after breaking him out of a CIA sting operation, in order to gain his audience with the king. He then went rapidly From Nobody to Nightmare by revealing his identity, shocking and scorning the Wakandan royalty present in the throne room (who mocked his claim two minutes prior). He then challenged T'Challa, and effectively beat the crap out of him along with a brutal "Reason You Suck" Speech, which led to him taking over Wakanda and gaining access to Vibranium. He instigated a conflict that was so catalytic to the entire country, making T'Challa realise he was actually right about Wakanda's current role in the world, inspiring him to change things the right way.
Stane not sure about.
Fury is a straight up good guy, so I think that facilitates his removal.
Loki not sure, the guy is a Smug Snake in Thor and Avengers but he does start to get better in later films.
Zemo is more a quieter example than most of this archetype but I do think a case be made for him for this trope
Vulture I think fits this the best even being graceful in defeat.
Erik is disqualified due to being a Politically Incorrect Villain (He's a very sympathetic one yes but its still sadly a disqaulfier for him).
So what are you do guys think ?
edited 7th May '18 2:46:17 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I never felt that Erik was a Magnificent Bastard. Even without the Politically Incorrect Villain
Going to agree with Kazuya on this one, Erik is easily my favourite MCU villain and he's very well written but with his bite-back racism and the fact he's ultimately a very hurt and unstable child, I don't think he's meeting this mark.
For the other films I've actually seen, I can also say Loki and Nick are cuts.
It's pretty scary to actually see Loki listed, not only is he pretty heroic at this point in the game but I'm not even convinced he's, even as a hero, over his Smug Snake tendencies.
edited 7th May '18 7:30:19 AM by 43110
I'd say cut everone except their version of Zemo.
I'll note that Loki's actually a terrible fit for the trope because for most of Thor, and subsequently, The Avengers, he has no real idea of what's going on, and no master plan. The entire premise of Thor is that one of Loki's attempts to troll his brother worked out far better than he'd ever intended, and suddenly he's the usurper king of Asgard with no notion of how this even happened. Loki triggered a chain of events he has no actual control over and spends the rest of the film—and most of the films after it—just racing to catch up.
edited 7th May '18 7:21:12 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Goku Black
Lol yeah. Loki really underestimates things to his detriment and unintentionally set a chain of events which led to his success in the first place.
edited 7th May '18 7:50:45 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
- Magnificent Bastard: Dimentio. This guy manages to nearly bring about The End of the World as We Know It without ever really needing to lift a finger, and even seemingly kills Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser in a fantastic subversion of No Sneak Attacks that comes out of nowhere, and is only really hurt by the fact that he just sent them to the afterlife non-lethally. Granted, that was part of the plan, and things were set up to still go through even if he himself was defeated.
Not sure on this one, he has a pretty big Villainous Breakdown at the end of the game, he probably would have fit otherwise though.
edited 7th May '18 7:52:34 AM by ReynTime250
I haven’t played the game but every indication I’ve gotten of the character is that he’s a sadist with an omnicidal goal. Throw in this big Villainous Breakdown you’re talking about and I’m saying he’s a solid cut.
Yeah, that sounds like a cut.
Looking at the Pokemon section
- Giovanni from Pokémon tends to be portrayed like this in the adaptations. Particularly magnificent is his depiction in the Pokémon Special manga, in which he had a huge operation carried out under the guise of a string of seemingly unrelated incidents, had many plans (Mewtwo, the Legendary birds, the raid of Silph Co.) running simultaneously and even being altered to accommodate circumstances, and is shown to be so skilled at Pokémon battle that he can anticipate what his opponents' Pokémon will be, what move they'll make, what counterattack to use, AND how many seconds or minutes it all will take, all before anything's even happened yet!
- The actual game series had one in Cyrus, Big Bad of Pokémon Diamond and Pearl and boss of Team Galactic. He's shown to always be steps ahead of you or the other good guy characters, has an intricate criminal/terrorist operation carried out while using his team doing official business for his energy company as a front for these crimes, is highly intelligent and calculating, and has enough charisma to sway the spirits of his followers and deceive them into following his stated cause of using the powers of time/space to Take Over the World and change it for the better, when in reality he plans to literally destroy the existing world with these powers and create a new one where all living things would be stripped of spirit (what he believes is the source of all strife and incompleteness in the world) and he'd reign over it as God of a new universe. As a master of suppressing his emotions, he rarely ever loses composure and is strangely respectful and courteous towards his enemies too. Unlike other villains, he claims to not use Pokémon as friends or tools, but instead make their power his own through his man-made devices fueled by their energy such as the Red Chain.
- Ghetsis Harmonia from Generation V comes very close to the mark in Pokémon Black and White games, being a devious and charismatic Chessmaster whose plan was years in the making and was very nearly successful, with Team Plasma poised to take over the Unova League, then the Unova Region, and then the world. However, he falls into Smug Snake territory once he has a raging Villainous Breakdown once his plan falls apart, getting even worse in the sequels Pokémon Black 2 and White 2. His Pokémon Special counterpart, on the other hand, is a lot better at maintaining his composure.
- In Pokémon Sun and Moon, Lusamine may be among the most (if not the most) successful and manipulative villains in the main series. Despite being completely insane, she still manages to successfully run the Aether Foundation by putting on the charade of still being a loving and caring person, and has the entirety of it at her fingertips, the majority of whom do not even know her true intentions. Meanwhile, she secretly freezes dozens of rescued Pokémon and keeps them in her hidden chamber as decorations, and manipulates Guzma and the rest of Team Skull into doing her bidding (meaning that she controls two different organizations at once). She oversaw the project to create Type: Full, a Pokémon intended to emulate Arceus itself, and even though her children successfully managed to escape her, she still indirectly controlled their lives to such an extent that they were in no position to stop her. She nearly kills Nebby in order to open the wormholes, successfully releases at least ten dangerous Ultra Beasts all over Alola, brings Guzma into the wormhole along with herself in order to escape this world, and now that she has what she wants, discards him like a used toy once they arrive in Ultra Space, trapping him for an indefinite time. Virtually the only reason that she managed to be defeated is due to Lillie's newfound determination and your prowess as a trainer, and even when you both confront her, she makes her last stand by fusing with a Nihilego and attempting to kill her own daughter.
I don't know too much about Giovanni in Pokemon Adventures, Cyrus is probably a yes but Ghetsis is a no, and the Pokemon Special version of Ghetsis hasn't ended yet.
Lusamine attempting to kill her own daughter was because of a Villainous Breakdown after being defeated. IMO that's a cut.
edited 7th May '18 8:35:06 AM by ReynTime250
Honestly, I would say cut them all and we can later do an EP for anyone who warrants being a keeper. At work right now but I’ll conduct a purge of the Gundam page when I’m done.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Alright.... Since this is my first time to propose a Magnificent Bastard example.... There are two people that could either stay or getting cut. Before i get into the second candidate. I want to ask a question:
Do you guys still think Megabyte from Reboot series a Magnificent Bastard? As he lose his redeeming qualities in season 2 onwards and has since become far more evil and vicious than usual. Havent watch the show but I watched some of the clips where Megabyte turns into an Evil bastard later on
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Megabyte is one I’d have to ask you to watch to verify. I think people might be leather pantsing him because of who who voices him and IIRC he had some pretty Smug Snake tendencies. That all being said, it’s been over a decade since I watched it so I could be mistaken.
When it comes to villains from series aimed at a younger audience I'm prepared to cut a degree of slack, especially once we take into account the standards the 'verse. Not familiar enough with Reboot to comment on whether or not Megabyte qualifies, but on say, Beast Wars, I've never had an issue with Megatron being listed, despite all the setbacks he endures.
Planeswalker
Megabyte absolutely qualifies, he's Faux Affably Evil and successfully plans out sending The Hero into an eldritch dimension while he's supposed to be working with the heroes and proceeds to have a plan for when the heroes desperately trap him in one area. Then he conquers the world. He only has one Smug Snake moment and that's at the very end when he severely underestimates someone's power levels and gets beaten because of it.
I guess you could argue Megabyte became less and less Faux Affably Evil after he comes back, but he manages to be a suave and entertaining Complete Monster, that takes some serious Magnificent points.
edited 7th May '18 12:19:48 PM by PhiSat
Oissu!
Sounds like there are potential arguments both for and against Megabyte, would love to see an EP on him.
Anyways, I was planning on rewatching Die Hard today and giving the Grubster a proper EP and writeup if folks think he should stay—which I think there's a good chance of—but I had a pretty full day and I'm feeling tired already, so instead I'm just going to suggest another cut. This time from Berserk:
- Magnificent Bastard:
- Griffith, who manages to win several battlefield victories, capture Doldrey with a devious Batman Gambit, and foils two assassination plots while he's at it.
- Martino from "Spring Flowers of Summer Days", who manages to get on the good side of the notoriously mistrustful and antisocial Guts while they're shackled together in a chain gang, manipulates him into acting as a decoy while he escapes himself, and then shows up with a perfectly executed surprise attack on the castle in the nick of time, even convincing Guts to call it even.
Now, Martino I can't really comment on since I haven't read the bits involving him but Griffith is a hard no and I can't believe he keeps getting cited as an MB. For one thing, he's also listed as a Base-Breaking Character, so audience opinions are probably too divided to confidently put him in this territory. There's also kinda, sorta, maybe the issue that he's a fucking rapist! I don't care what the creepier ends of the internet say, he is responsible for one of the most graphic, horrific depictions of rape in a P5 approved work. There's no coming back from that. At all. Griffith is smart and that's being overplayed like it's the whole trope here. Even when he's acting charismatic, he gives the Princess a speech about how men may be savage compared to women but are prepared to fight what they love and then goes off on an almost elitist sounding rant about how his followers are so far beneath him and makes it clear he considers his "circle" to just be anyone who can advance his career in getting as much power as he possibly can for himself.
Thoughts for cutting?
edited 7th May '18 6:43:11 PM by 43110
RIP Toriyama
Burn Griffith with holy fire. Even ignoring that he's a rapist bastard, he's way, way, WAY too smug and prickish besides. He has a mental breakdown when ONE of his soldiers leaves him because he's an asshole due to losing his self-perceived "control," and by the time he joins the Godhand, he's revealed to truthfully be a pathetic, egotistical lunatic who, when the chips are down, will forsake all form of dignity or charm to spite others.
Cut, cut, and cut. Same to Light. The Major's actually one I could KINDA see staying (No relation to him being my Profile pic, lol), but I won't argue about it.
edited 7th May '18 6:48:30 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Absolute "yes" on cutting Griffith. Horrid intersection of Smug Snake and CM there.
Goku Black
Burn Griffith with fire. No way he counts as this.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Aside from specific examples, there's also Pragmatic Hero, Unscrupulous Hero, and Sociopathic Hero who can all be bastards without being villains. Link to TRS threads in project mode here.