What if your main characters were the opposite gender?

To make it short: I would have to rewrite everything.

nrjxll: I generally agree with you, but I think that you shouldn't underestimate cultural factors, in the story and in real life.

In story, any world with gender roles (such as Real Life) will have differing contexts for the same character types: one gender of character will have had to work harder to do the same thing, may have had to break social taboos, and will face more opposition and derision (or get treated more like a token or Special Perfect Princess) than someone of the other gender. Remember the 2008 Democratic primary? If you wrote a story about a presidential election in the present-day US where there was a female candidate and her gender was a complete non-issue, that wouldn't be realistic.

Out of story, because of real-life culture, the connotations surrounding a character will vary depending on the gender. For instance, Lazytown might not have as much unintentional pedophilia subtext if Sportacus were female (or if that banana weren't in there! Why??). My favorite trope example is Bathe Her and Bring Her to Me: The connotations are way different when it's a guy who's been captured.

The latter can be thought of as a Double Standard, yes, but Tropes Are Not Bad. Subverted gender expectations create interesting characters and situations with unusual emotional connotations; while the gender expectations are present, you might as well use them.

@jewelleddragon: I think I'm starting to come across as a Single-Issue Wonk here, but to answer some of your points:

This is true, and I've said as much. My point is that it seems that people who aren't writing in modern settings are still making the same gender assumptions.

This sort of "readers might feel this way" argument always strikes me as a sort of Appeal to Tradition / Appeal to Inherent Nature fallacy. The way I think of it is: yes, some of your viewers really are morons, but, especially if you aren't trying to write for money (like most of us), that doesn't mean you should tone it down to their level. If some of your readers buy into gender stereotypes, then that's their own darn fault - you don't have to cater to them.

That's not actually what Tropes Are Not Bad originally meant, you know - it's supposed to try and avoid things like Not A Subversion, where people will stop at nothing to deny that their favorite show played a trope straight (Dun dun DUN!) It doesn't mean that there aren't some tropes that are, in fact, inherently bad - like, say, any of the "Rape Is Okay When It's..." family.

If anything, I'd say Tropes Are Not Bad in that sense is support for my position - I don't like it when people play with a trope simply for the sake of playing with it. Someone going "Look, I flipped a gender stereotype" is annoying at best, and anvilicious at worst. Just avoid the stereotypes altogether.

edited 9th May '11 4:10:49 PM by nrjxll

You're not being a single issue wonk, IMO; this is a gender thread and we're talking about gender.

I'm just not sure what you mean by "just avoid the stereotypes altogether." Without launching the "is anything really original?" conversation for the nth time, you seem to be saying that people should just not put anything in their stories that has ever been in a story before. In essentially any situation, you can either do what is usually done/what the reader expects (played straight), or do something else (subverted). For instance, a female character for whom gender is not a significant part of her identity, and who has no stereotypically female traits (and no intentionally-subverted stereotypically male traits) is subverting the assumption that femaleness is an important part of every female character.

Or I may just be misinterpreting you. What would be an example of how you would prefer gender to be handled?

You know, I'm not actually sure what I meant by this either...

Gender roles can be totally different too if you're writing about a different world than this one. You'd have a different society, and thus different expectations for gender.

My particular society is very militaristic, so my particular characters wouldn't change roles much even if they changed gender. In my military, there is equal opportunities (just so long as you know, don't commit treason or anything.)

It depends on the society. Sometimes, the gender stereotypes can't be avoided (like, in my society, a civilian wouldn't be an Action Girl, but probably would support in other ways.)

edited 10th May '11 10:40:36 AM by Misuki

I've been wanting to post on this thread for a while, but schoolwork had foiled my plans time and time again. But no longer!

Anyway, I was playing Marvel Vs Capcom 3 the other day when I suddenly thought to myself, "Hey, X-23 is kind of cool. I should make a character like her." But while I was toying around with the idea, I realized that I had a character — a male character — vaguely similar in profession and ability. Well, he was a ninja (who roamed cyberspace), but you get the idea.

So on a whim, I decided, "Hey! I'll gender-flip this guy, and never look back!" And I did. And I have to say, I'm pleased with the results.

Originally, he was Shingo Takeuchi, a stoic, glasses-wearing hacker with a sweet hat who's got No Social Skills, No Sense of Personal Space, is obsessed with gathering "measurements," and is either a genius or an idiot. Also, he moonlights as a ninja in the virtual world where he tries to outwit his old friend, another hacker who's as friendly as he is devilish.

Now? She's Shino Takeuchi, who...is actually all of those things. It was kind of an experiment, and while I'm reluctant to change characters (Shingo in particular, who I came up with nearly eight years ago), the shift to Shino has been a successful one. The only issue I foresee is rendering how people will react to her; male and female characters might have to have their relationships shifted.

Maybe I should gender-flip some of my other characters...?

Sex-flipping the characters can work for many of them. Most my characters would work just as well as either sex. No need to change sexuality if their partners are also sex-flipped - straights stay straight, homosexuals remain homosexual and bis stay bi - and I tend not to make women who are extremely feminine (or extremely feminist) nor men who are extremely macho.

My take on sexual equality is that there's no need for the average person to make a song and dance about it or charge around demanding "equality" from every Tom, Dick and Harriet - just quietly get on with doing what you desire and only take a stand if someone acts in a sexist fashion.

Therefore women in my stories ride motorbikes, go hunting and/or fishing, play active sports, drive trucks, actively pursue sexual partners if they desire them and otherwise do what the hell they want regardless of whether or not they are "male stereotypes" and don't feel inclined to shout "lookit MEEEEEEEE" for doing so.

Likewise men in my stories can cook for themselves, do their own washing, care for children and admit that they don't like rugby without feeling they need a medal for being a Sensitive New Age Guy.

They might - if someone they encountered expressed surprise at a skill, job or hobby because it is stereotypical of the opposite sex - derive some amount of pleasure in chiding the person for being sexist, and they would certainly put their foot down if someone said "back off, girly, this is man's work" or "why don't you get your missus to cook your meals for you?"

Consequently, as I said earlier, sex-flipping them would just switch around what things the viewer sees as adherence to or departure from stereotype. A man who enjoys cooking and sword fighting would become a woman who enjoys cooking and sword fighting.

The only group of characters in my current work that could not be casually sex-flipped with little consequence is the Christian Polygamist family as the entire concept is based on a set culture with clearly written laws on polygamy and divorce and a strict definition of adultery. Short of sex-flipping the entire Bible, or completely throwing away the characters' ideals, beliefs, motivations and natures, there's no resolution.

Ehhh. What would be the female equivalent of emasculation?

Eeep!

I didn't say it'd work for all characters.

Haha sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about your description. It's an honest question.

Kinda hard to say, since femininity is considered much worse than masculinity, but I'm guessing probably losing their beauty, and being forced to do hard labor (like, REALLY hard labor) and stuff.

Or something. I dunno.

My work will turn from Ho Yay overloaded story into one fueled by Les Yay and overpopulated with Schoolgirl Lesbians. Okay, that's an exaggeration, but not by too much...

In mine, three lesbians would become male homosexuals. There are currently no male homosexuals in my story (no reason for that, just none have developed out of the plot/character list yet) so there would be no lesbians in a sex-flipped version of mine.

For some reason, my story is overloaded with not by homosexuals but bisexuals. The primary trio of my story is made up with two guys and a girl, and it's more or less engaged in bisexual love triangle.

I have no idea what's wrong with me.

There isn't a female equivalent to 'emasculation' because generally speaking 'femininity' is weak and negative. The role was devised that way. The closest thing you'll get is having a woman who acts 'masculine' in a way that is unlikely to appeal to the current male population - such as women who look 'butch' or women who aren't afraid to be angry or lustful. Otherwise people will be pleased if she acts in a so-called 'masculine' way.

edited 11th May '11 4:39:12 AM by Gaiseric

Whatever's wrong with you, the same thing's probably wrong with me.

So far, I've got two poly groups (one of which involves a lesbian and a bi-girl) and a lesbian couple. More bisexuality may grow out of plot development - I often don't know what (or whom) my characters are going to do until the situation arises.

Sex flipping most the characters would probably do a lot towards evening up the sex balance (assuming just the one family stays the same) as it's heavily weighted towards females at the moment.

Well, the protagonist of Bjorn Westlander, Agent Retriever would be a geeky, lanky Wrench Wench with budding Action Girl tendencies instead, I don't know if it's worse. However, I can't imagine how the Circuit Judge character would be gender-flipped, to say nothing of the dwarf. And the love interest coming back wrong? I think it'd have to be a guy at least as fucked up as the resurrected Catelyn Stark.

edited 13th May '11 2:56:54 PM by NotSoBadassLongcoat

I was playing around with typical gender roles as it is. I think switching gender might make it more sexist

• M made F protag and POV character
  • would be a Damsel in Distress as opposed to James Bondage
  • would have a Hero Complex but in the grand scheme of things be rather weak as powers go
  • would be physically weaker but more in control of emotions

• F made M protag
  • Troubled, but Cute vs. Broken Bird
  • Casanova vs. Good Bad Girl Femme Fatale
  • Papa Wolf vs. Mama Bear
  • physically stronger but an emotional wreck

Although that would leave me with the main male character being Bi, which would be interesting as Bi girls seem more socially acceptable.

edited 4th Jun '11 2:49:03 PM by ladygem

From Ashwood Landing

Claudia would become Claud: an over weight tech/anime otaku who would mostly be seen as an Uke, changing the gender would almost ensure that people see him as a Butt-Monkey.

Axel would become Axelle: who would be just as androgynous but most likely have an A cup, this might make her a Ms. Fanservice amongst fans though but they'd have to suspend the fact that cold temperatures make her freeze up. Let's see:

• part-Elf
• Part-snake
• No concept of human sexuality or sexual taboos outside of illegal ones.
• Likes fighting once she's resigned to it.
• will use guile to win.
• Dark and Troubled Past she won't talk about.
• Likes poetry, taking long walks looking at the moon and training under the rising sun.
• Uses pistols and swords.

....Wow

edited 4th Jun '11 6:12:50 PM by Vyctorian

One of my main character has scars on his chest and swan wings... You wouldn't be able to see the scars she would just have to tell you about them... Actually... I don't think that character could be female for other reasons too...

the original version of my series of short stories was a single long story where the main character was female actually. but it turned out...darker than im willing to go with, so i switched the genders around a bit and now the main character is male, her cousin is now her sister, and...yeah. that itself never had much of an effect though, but getting rid of one particular character changed the plot drastically and lightened it up a fair amount

in the first story of my other series, it wouldn't matter if you changed the gender of the main character, since up untill the halfway point you're supposed to think its a male anyway.

2nd story, change the main character into a male, and it becomes a lot easier to write, but the story loses...something.

3rd story...depends on wether or not you consider a male asking his best (female) friend to kill his family and go to jail for him, is worse than a female asking her best (male) friend to kill her family and go to jail for her. for me, the former seems infinately worse.

the other stories...lets not go there.

Hm... the answer depends entirely on which story I pick.

If I do it for the space opera, not all that much changes, since it's in the future and gender roles are, in a practical sense, nonexistent.

If I do it for the high fantasy, the cast goes from 3/5ths female to 3/5ths male, although the character of Medusa would probably have to be reworked entirely...

If I do it for the war drama, the plot doesn't happen, period. Considering that it's set in the '20s and there is only one named female character (who is, more or less, Stuffed into the Fridge), everything would almost instantly fall apart.

Dimension Drifter: It would be awkward

Pink Dave Chronicles: Would defeat the purpose of a man wearing Pink saving the world

Sum of a .(period): Nothing would change seeing the main character has no gender

My main character actually can Gender Swap.