What if your main characters were the opposite gender?

I'm kind of worried that there haven't been more posts along this nature. Sure, fans of your work might buy into the Double Standard of gender tropes and make a big deal out of it, but I'm a little alarmed how many of you think gender-flipping characters would actually make a big canonical difference to those characters.

Oh hey, my idea got its own thread! :D

Well, one of the two stories I'm currently working on is about a couple (and no, it's not a romance, nor a drama), the other one is an experiment I'm doing trying to make a written version of your generic harem anime so it would still be a generic harem anime in book but with a girl and lots of boys or a lesbian with a harem... I guess I'll screw what I was working on and will write a lesbian harem

Swapping the sexes wouldn't make a difference for most my characters. Except for the family based on Scriptural Polygamy (which has to be one man, multiple wives according to a book that's been kicking around for a few thousand years), the characters have a wide mix of skills and interests, regardless of their sex.

If the sexes were switched, it'd merely invert what parts the readers view as "stereotypical" and what they view "not stereotypical" as the "blokish" things done by women would become "blokish" things done by men while the "girly" things those same women enjoy would become "girly" things enjoyed by the men. The converse applies, of course.

In my work's unswitched state, the best shot with a rifle is a woman and if she and her partner were to go rabbit hunting, she'd bag more of them than he would. In another family, the primary hunter is the husband and his wife is the undisputed mistress of cultivating crops. In yet another family, the primary gardener is the husband.

Sex switching would just "move things around a bit".

edited 4th May '11 7:35:03 PM by Wolf1066

Swapping Aurus' sex would change things drastically on account Aurus is terrified of the opposite sex... It's a bit easier for a boy to not bother with women in a male-dominated society... not so much for a girl to avoid men like the plague in the same situation.

I actually gender-flipped permanently one of my characters after doing this what-if. For some reason, despite being the same personality, my vampire Epifan is more interesting as a woman. Though it is funnier when she beats people up because she's even tinier as a woman than she was a man. Though it took a while to get used to calling her a she since I didn't decide this until over a year with the character as male. Though I had to re-write a lot of conversations because it's significantly more awkward for Orsino to talk to a girl about sex with a prostitute than a man.

Whoa whoa back up there. It doesn't automatically mean double standards if switching the genders changes things in the story. Maybe the creator is playing off of audiences expectations. Or maybe it has to do with the culture of the world like the person above me stated.

edited 5th May '11 2:48:30 PM by JewelyJ

Well, yes, and if that's the case, that's fine. However, a lot of Gender and Sexuality Tropes do involve some kind of Double Standard, and if it's not an automatic part of your setting, then I would think twice about using them. Including gender-flipped versions, but for a different reason: I tend to frown upon the idea of creating a character solely in order to play with a character trope.

Edit: I should rephrase this, as I'm not meaning to say you should never have Always Male tropes applied to a male character or Always Female tropes applied to a female character. What I am saying is that you should think about it before doing so, and ask yourself why. That's the whole point of things like the Bechdel, really - not to be an end-all guide to finding sexism in works, but to just make people stop to think a bit. And what I'm concerned about here is that not many people seem to be thinking about why their characters would change so much if gender-flipped. Or at least they're not saying if they are.

edited 5th May '11 5:14:06 PM by nrjxll

Well, regardless of anyone else's opinions on the matter, society does teach people to raise boys and girls differently, and tells boys and girls different things about themselves, and that's bound to reflect in our personalities no matter who we are. Even if we make it a point to avoid the stereotypes of our gender, that's still a reflection of how we've been brought up.

I don't think most of my stories would change much.

However, Kale's story would, because her being the target of anti-female sexism is plot-important. If she were a boy, she wouldn't have been a target of sexism. And if her sexist mentor was a girl, he'd never have gotten to where he is, given the society he grew up in. Her parents (psychopathic Spousal Abuser father who forces his Extreme Doormat wife to sexually abuse her) would be more unusual if gender-flipped, but could still have a very plausible unhealthy family dynamic.

A couple other characters would be totally different if gender-flipped for the same reason - for example, Bjorn probably would've stayed home rather than raiding, or if he did go raiding (which he'd have to do to become a vampire and therefore participate in the plot) he'd have been seen as more unusual. If the vampires he encountered were all gender-flipped, they probably wouldn't have seemed much stranger, given that they had an even gender mix (female warrior, male warrior leader, female magic-user and male Undead Child who's mostly useless in a fight). However, the two guys in that team both came from a society where major character-defining events wouldn't have happened to a girl in their situation (the leader was part of an all-male army, the kid was in a Greek-style pedophilic relationship).

But only the stories set in a world vaguely similar to ours would be affected. The others could work just fine gender-swapped. I tend to write non-sexist fantasy cultures, unless I'm deliberately trying to include sexism.

Story #1 One of my main characters is already a deliberate gender flip, so making her male would ruin what I'm trying to do with the character.

The other main character is asexual, so making her a guy wouldn't really change much. (Her personality is fairly gender neutral.)

Story #2 Main character is based on a Stringy-Haired Ghost Girl, so gender swapping her would be a problem. It also ruins the "only sister in a family of boys" dynamic I've set up for her. Personality wise, I think she'd probably run into a lot of problems if she was a guy. She has a few tomboyish interests, but for the most part, she's fairly feminine, shy and quiet. I'd expect some readers would bash a male character with that personality. (Gotta love double standards.)

It would also affect her love interest, since I've already established him as heterosexual. I'd have to rewrite the story to change his sexuality . . . either that or I'd have to swap his gender, too. The main character is the one who initiated the romance in spite of her shyness, so I don't want to eliminate the romance entirely. It's extremely important character growth.

Who the heck cares what your readers think? Unless you're published, it's their fault for buying into double standards, not yours for trying to defy.

Even if you're published, I'd feel the same way, but we do get monetary issues involved then.

Tre as a girl'd be super weird. I guess it'd make his (her?) depression period in the second episode of Stuck make more sense. I think her name would probably be Tress.

Now that I think about it though, it'd probably make the fact that Guy!Nora (Norm?) dumps her over getting kissed by a guy she didn't like nor want even worse. Poor Tress.

In other genderbending news, Max'd be Maxie, while Grassy'd probably keep her nickname but her real name'd most likely be Chardon since Guy!Grassy's name is Gordon.

I've discussed this with a few people, and, to be brief, in-story, I actually do this. For two chapters.

It's as awkward as it sounds. A great vehicle for subtle character development, though.

I have a situation like this too.

Mostly cause it's funny.

Well for one thing Fiona turned male would be just another sexist abuser/psychopathic complete monster and her excuse/justification for her violently aggressive way of 'getting what she wants in life ("Life is rough for a female in the 1600s you have to do whatever you must to survive") would be even less credible.

As for Skye ("Skyla") ,well I don't think much would change really except she would be a Daddy's Girl. She might also be an Action Girl which I guess would be kinda cool. People might come down on her harder for being annoyed when people give her excess attention and stuff like that. Though a Knight Templar Big Sister would be interesting to see.

Well as for Timmy being a girl. I've always worried that people might find Unfortunate Implications somehow because he's a naive and extremely idealistic pacifist with confidence problems who almost hero worships his pushy ,overprotective older brother. Though his low confidence comes from his society's view of him as a boy empath. His people's society is not warm towards empaths in general but being female and empathic is usually more forgivable to them than being male and empathic. So it would admittedly change quite a bit of his character.(Though I do like to draw female!Timmy because he would make a cute girl.)

Gem, well as a boy her name would be Jaime. Her-or he would still be very artistic and probably be a musician or drama lover. As for the jewelry making.....(which is kinda plot important as Gem's prowess with jewelry tools and resourcefulness saves her and her brother) maybe electronics and computer fixing would be Jaime's thing. Jaime would still be very insecure probably made worse by teasing from guys at school.

Rusty as a girl...hmmmm For one thing she would have gotten the constellation name, Cassopia, called Cass for short. She would be a first class Tom Boy and an aspiring car mechanic. Like her male incarnation , Cass world be the sort to speak her mind and sometimes back up her words with fists. Sort of a Lad-ette type. She would still be the most loyal best friend ever.

Genderbending Dex would kinda ruin some of what I'm trying to do with him.. I wanted to make a male version of the girl who fears men because of bad experiences but come across sympathetic and not sexist. Eh... I dunno for some reason female!Dex is less interesting than male!Dex.

Blade hmmm. Well Blade as a female would be interesting, but I worry that some readers might come down on her harder for being an Ethical Slut. I could see her acting harsh and Tsundere but having strong maternal instincts underneath. (Not a violent Tsundere ,but a snarky cynical one.)

Kat/Gil. Well that would be interesting. it could definitely work as I'm not trying any gender reversal things on him. As a girl his name would be Gabrielle and the adoptive name she takes under the Toyakas would be Tasya. If Fiona is gender-swapped too (Alaster/Akahata) than I could see Wife Husbandry going on. Then Gab/Tasya would have been brought up differently. Though being energetic as she is I still can't see her content as a docile bride. Alastair's birth kid might intervene and try to teach Tasya some fighting moves. So she would end up being his 'loyal defender' until she finds out the truth. Probably turns out to be a Little Miss Badass .

edited 8th May '11 6:24:28 AM by JewelyJ

@nrjxll,

It actually would make a difference in a lot of works to flip the genders. For one, there are psychological differences between men and women. Women tend to have quicker responses and use different parts of their brain more often, therefore giving off different thought patterns.

It isn't just double standards, and many plot points can VERY well depend on gender. Promiscuity, is a double standard, but something like women having a tendency towards certain personality types, isn't.

This is going to be creepy that I know this, but for example, women serial killers are very rare, and what ones do exist fall into a MUCH narrower set of pathologies. With spree killers, something different but related, are almost always male. In fact, women murderers tend to have motives for murder that men do not have most of the time. The psychology is different.

Therefore I conclude, that it is not sexist to say that the plot or personalities would be different, it would be over zealous political correctness to say that it never should.

With that said, this link provides examples of when it worked perfectly flipping genders. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but that gender flipping characters will really mess with some plots and relationships. Now if you flipped ALL characters, then you still can have some weird plot quirks.

Huh. If my main character was a girl:

• The biggest change would be that she'd be a lesbian (or bisexual), because her relationship with a woman is a big part of the story. The story takes place in the future though, so some variant of Outgrown Such Silly Superstitions would probably prevent this from creating any extra conflict. It would, however, create entirely different connotations for the reader in her eventual decision to revolt against the government-instead of resembling a reactionary protestor, she'd probably resemble a progressive protestor.
• Knowing her boss, she'd probably be sexually harassed.
• Her hatred for a specific minor character would probably feel different. Instead of "I'm too smart to go out with The Libby" it might feel more like "I deserve the popularity way more than The Libby does".
• Her best friend might start to feel like the Token Straight White Male.
• Assuming that she's bisexual instead of a lesbian, I could picture her wondering if she's infatuated with one of her fellow revolutionaries.
• Her death scene, which involves a giant tentacle monster, would undoubtedly recieve more Rule34.

I think that should be all, but I'm not sure.

That's a lot of overgeneralizing there.

I don't understand why it is always labeled "politically correct" to try to suggest that women and men don't have to fit into two solid, little boxes in fiction.

And nobody ever said that things like gender doesn't have an effect on plot. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't have to be one the main things that determines a character, though.

I understand that this is a difficult subject, but...

When people talk about their works here, a lot of the time they talk in tropes. They talk about how they want to play with tropes, invert or subvert them, reconstruct and deconstruct. Why can't gender tropes be any different? Why aren't we more willing to challenge them?

edited 7th May '11 8:46:59 PM by BetsyandtheFiveAvengers

eerr

I said it would be over zealous political correctness to say that it should "NEVER" effect personality/plot. Also, it was directed at one person who said that the responses thus far were disturbing for him, on more than one post.

I was just saying that women and men really are different, and that character roles are not always interchangeable in this respect.

These are good points, and I'm well aware of them. However, like Betsy said, there is a lot of generalizing going on. Of course, saying "there are no psychological differences between men and women" is just as much a generalization, and I fully agree that it's incorrect. However, a lot of gender-based tropes have no bearing in any actual differences. The differences between men and women in Real Life and in fiction don't always overlap. What's concerned me in this thread is not that people are saying their characters will be different if gender-flipped, but how they'll be different.

I will freely admit I would rather veer towards Political Correctness Gone Mad then the opposite. I think that depicting both genders as completely different carries a lot more Unfortunate Implications then portraying them exactly the same, and while neither is correct, I do believe that the latter is still a more accurate generalization. Particularly in speculative fiction like I write.

Basically, I think that while men and women are not psychologically identical, character gender roles in fiction are far more a product of their society then of anything to do with actual differences. I could pick out some individual examples in this thread, but I don't want to feel like I'm hounding anyone in particular. As I've been saying, what bothers me is not that people feel their characters will change if gender-flipped, but the extent and nature of how they feel they'll change. All I really want to do is get people to stop and think about how many of the changes are actually caused by the new gender, and how many are caused by other factors.

edited 7th May '11 10:35:15 PM by nrjxll

Heh, there is no change besides a little adaptation of the clothes and the names.

Huh. Motree actually convinced me to drop all of our characters into a Genderbent AU taking place in the Vesperiaverse using almost all of our characters. So far, I've only gotten the opportunity to write with two characters, and I'm actually dying to see how my 65-year-old protagonist would be handled. I'll post the characters who would have the most difference to them.

One thing to remember about the Cline triplets is that they have fairy ancestry in a world where fairies aren't tiny. You just don't see a whole lot of male fairies in fiction, unless it's A Midsummer Nights Dream. Turning them into girls would add them to the existing heap.

• Raphael Cline is neurotic, effeminate, hypersensitive, really wimpy, and childish to a degree that lasted into adulthood. He enjoys gardening, goes into the botany field, and becomes a healer in the military later on to gather funds for his new flower shop. He also spends a significant portion of the story being manipulated.
  • If all of that was applied to Rachel Cline, I think she would be seen as hyperfeminine and maybe even sexist. She would have a ton of fanboys, having Moe-like traits that demand that she be protected. Audiences may also find it a lot easier to accept why she was manipulated so much, being such a naive girl. Most boys aren't as childish as Rafi is.

• Matthias Cline spent his childhood as an Ill Boy with a severe heart defect that prevented him from going outside and playing with the other kids. After a heart transplant, a certain incident made him lose his vision, but he still went on to become a theater actor and father of two. Onstage, his most well-known role was that of the main villain- a charismatic IRS higher-up who happens to be blind.
  • Ignoring the potential problems of working with a heart defect like hers in a semi-mideaval setting like the Vesperiaverse, Micaiah Cline would not change much. A charismatic, female IRS higher-up who can still make the protagonists lose everything despite being blind would be pretty unique, actually, and would add a new dimension of intimidation to the mix.

• Elijah Cline is an attractive, yet very eccentric guy who also happens to be a talented artist. He has also been known to get Ax-Crazy at times and lacks consideration for human life as a whole while still being moderately nice. Others see him as kinda creepy and nuts.
  • Esther Cline's less-violent tendencies, such as her male self's obsession with rhinoceros beetles, would probably be seen as less creepy and more comedically cute. Which would then make her more violent Ax-Crazy and psychopathic tendencies all the more scary.

• Kiyoi Shimada is a retired samurai who has taken up blacksmithing and swordsmithing during his last years of life. He is still a very good fighter despite his now frail build and myriad of old injuries, but the plot he's involved in requires more brains than brawn.
  • Aside from the Badass Grandpa factor being changed into a Never Mess with Granny factor, Kiyoshi Shimada would probably seem a lot less intimidating in her main plot simply because people don't expect much out of old ladies. There's also the thing with being a retired samurai. I read that wives of samurai were often trained to use small daggers in case someone tried to come after them while their husband wasn't around, and that some of these wives were more skilled at their daggers than their husbands were with their swords. Now that's an interesting possibility there.

• Viktor Kunstler was originally a man with albinism, but that may change in the near future to his dark-haired "Adrian" design. He looks very large and intimidating, but is very softspoken and polite. Having been born in 1895, he almost got drafted into World War One but was allowed to stay out of it due to his poor vision, and was expected to carry on his father's side of the family's tradition of male chemists. He later ends up falling love with his personal maid, Sophia, and marrying her despite some opposition. His family's crystal company also fell to his older sister because Viktor was too preoccupied with his scientific pursuits, then fell to him when she passed.
  • Viktoriya Kunstler would not have had quite as many opportunities as her male self around the turn of the 20th century due to being female. Her older brother would be expected to carry on the tradition of chemists and Viktoriya would end up with the company, and, having never discovered science, things probably would be different. Her marriage to a personal servant may create more uproar than a master marrying a maid because women in that age were generally expected to marry a man who could provide for them and benefit their wife's family.

So, yeah. I have a very big Wall of Text here.

edited 8th May '11 7:39:12 AM by CrystalGlacia

@ nrjxll

The overlapping part explained it best to me. I get what you are saying now. They are choosing the stereo-types cause it just seems to 'fit' if they were flipped.

"One of my main characters is already a deliberate gender flip, so making her male would ruin what I'm trying to do with the character."

Oh, yeah, I forgot - I have a character like that. She was originally designed as a female Vampire Detective (though she's evolved quite a bit). Making her male would make her a lot more conventional. It would also ruin some of the contrasting between her and Nora, unless I made Nora male. Which would work OK, but Nora's also got some more traditionally male traits (she pulls a Xanatos Gambit during the main plot) that I want to show girls having.

The only thing that would change are the romance dynamics and possibly the careers of some of the male-turned-female characters. Military officership is restricted by class and gender in my setting so making one of my characters a woman would require either a total rework of the character or an elaborate explanation for how she got the job. One solution would be to play up the "man shortage" aspect of the setting whereby large numbers of women are being required to fill in all the vacant jobs left by plague and war, but again the military in my story is supposed to be highly conservative and insular and I don't want to downplay that.

edited 9th May '11 8:23:20 AM by Gaiseric