Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

ComputerSherpa: I'm pulling this section on Sokka:

  • Basically, anything that has to do with Sokka's character from Avatar: The Last Airbender. His carnivorousness, sarcasm, whininess, engineering skills, and uselessness in battle have all been openly referred to onscreen, but the most predominant is his sense of humor. Though he started out as a relatively serious and down-to-earth character who occasionally got himself in over his head, Sokka has come to serve as a frequent source of comic relief throughout the series and an increasing victim of violent slapstick. It was later revealed in the Avatar: Nick Mag Presents: First Edition issue by the creators that "Sokka was originally designed to be much more low-key, but when Jack DeSena (his comedian voice actor) came in and brought (improvised) liveliness to his character, [they] began writing towards that strength." Arguably, this is an improvement on the original character.
    • Sokka himself is so Genre Savvy he even knows this, and once admitted to himself as he's just "the meat and sarcasm guy".

Sokka hasn't been Flanderized, he's been that way from the beginning. Way back in Episode 2 he says, "I'm just a guy with a boomerang." He's not the most complex character on the show, he knows that, and he likes it that way. Considering the the alternative, I'd say he's got the right idea. If anything, his character has deepened as the show progresses and he develops his relationship with Suki, Yue, and his dad.

Lale: But he definitely made less bad jokes in Season 1 (and there were no jokes about him making bad jokes), he wasn't a full-blown Butt-Monkey until Season 2 (it wasn't even a gradual change, it just hit like a ton of bricks in "The Cave of Two Lovers" and never wound down), and his whole identity wasn't being "the meat and sarcasm guy" in Season 1.

That Other 1 Dude: The definition of this trope is "when one trait of a character is exaggerated so much as to become largely their only trait". To be completely honest he wasn't just "meat and sarcasm guy". Hell, afterwards he was less sarcastic and had more character traits. And yes, he has always been the Butt-Monkey; one of his first scenes is getting covered in bison snot, and then there's the entirety of "The Fortuneteller". It's definitely something, but it is not Flanderization.

The Other Professor: Removed:
  • This editor thinks Takamura has always been somewhat of a Jerkass, ever since the beginning. Only that it became actually more obvious as the series continued.
This is the definition of flanderization. I'm guessing this was moved from Character Derailment and they forgot to remove this.

Scrounge: Moved the Grandpa Max example to Jean Grey Escalation, since it doesn't completely define his character. Dunno why I put it here instead of there in the first place.

  • In the first Men in Black movie, the worm aliens are first shown hanging out in the break room drinking coffee. In the animated series, they are completely obsessed with coffee, as is, it's later revealed, their entire home planet.

Is this really a case of Flanderization or a pure case of Character Exaggeration? They didn't develop a coffee addiction in the series, they simply are coffee-addicted.

Solandra: Pulled out the following examples:

  • In one particularly egregious case, WWE wrestler Muhammad Hassan started out as an Arab-American who was sick of being stereotyped as a terrorist; as time went on, he gradually became a stock Evil Foreigner who just happened to be from Detroit, in the process becoming everything he was originally trying to convince people he was not.
  • Futurama's Kif Kroker, second-in-command to Zapp Brannigan, went from being sarcastic and bolshy in his earliest appearances to a shy pushover in later seasons.

because they seem more like Character Derailment than Flanderization; their initial characterization seem to be completely opposite of their final characterization, instead of having a normal trait that's exaggerated over time.

Later: Added these examples to the Character Derailment entry.

Also pulled out:

  • In the first Men in Black movie, the worm aliens are first shown hanging out in the break room drinking coffee. In the animated series, they are completely obsessed with coffee, as is, it's later revealed, their entire home planet.

because as far as I remember, the worm aliens got only cursory scenes (I doubt that they even had more than three lines of dialogue), so they really didn't have much characterization to begin with. More like a Plot Tumor since they jumped from being a token alien appearance in the first movie to annoying sidekicks in the second and the animated adaptation.

Semiapies: I wonder whether Anya from Buffy counts. She started out as perfectly able to interact socially (hanging out with Cordelia in her first apperance), then behaved comically clinical when she first propositioned Xander, which then shifted into comical literalism and a near-complete lack of understanding of human interactions.

Lale: Character Derailment.

Spongebob Squarepants is probably one of the worst offenders of this.

Ronfar: Isn't Ethan from Ctrl+Alt+Del a textbook Cloudcookoolander, not The Ditz?

House: Wilson didn't miss her having testicles near her ovaries. Her ovaries WERE testicles. I do not agree, she had both, hadn't she?

Thatother1dude: Removed:
  • Another secondary character who got Flanderized is Sideshow Mel. In the earlier episodes, he had something of a British accent. Nowadays, he speaks Ye Olde Butcherede Englishe.

Mel never had a british accent, he just spoke in an overly dramatic voice, and always has.
That Other 1 Dude: After go over the definition of this "when a single trait is exaggerated until it consumes the character" I'm wondering how in the hell is Sokka a case? It list his carnivorousness, sarcasm, whininess, engineering skills, uselessness in battle, and sense of humor. That six things! Really I think this article needs a major overhaul for several issues:
  1. How is Homestar changing from The Fool to The Ditz even at all related
  2. Why does Radar no longer having "telepathy" count (the other part would though)
  3. Lester from Beakman's World seems more like a case of Character Derailment
  4. Lisa has always been a Soap Box Sadie
  5. I don't have any clue what it's saying about Bart
  6. Tedd seems more like Character Derailment

Honestly it seems like every other use of the term is incorrect, and would fit better in the nigh-abandoned page Character Exaggeration, as Flanderization is suppose to be about one trait consuming the character instead of becoming greater than before. It doesn't help that the character it wasn't that bad of an example. This article also seems to forget that Tropes Are Not Bad, and and changes to a character whatsoever are also always bad. I just list the ones that are probably more like Character Exaggeration:
  1. Homer, Marge, and maybe Moe (Marge really never had many other traits to begin with)
  2. Ralph can't be counted as Flanderized as he was pretty much a flat character to begin with
  3. Peter
  4. Wilson may or may not (I haven't seen the show)
  5. "Just about everyone" in Spongebob Squarepants (did they ever really have that many character traits?)

Charred Knight: Character Exaggeration deals with Flanderization when it comes to Adaptations such as Doctor Watson being basically an idiot in every Holmes adaptation.

That Other 1 Dude: That's kind of confusing. Anyway, it still seems that nearly half of the uses of this aren't accurate (I guess instead of Character Exaggeration, it would be exaggeration of character traits). The important thing is that it refers to when just single trait is exaggerated so much it become the only thing about them, which is why I don't think Homer counts because it was several traits that made him into a Jerkass, Marge was always nagging and is still a caring mother, and Ralph started out as a background character, and thus didn't have any thing about him before becoming The Ditz. Bart is more or less the same character, and Lisa just went from being a Soap Box Sadie to one that was at times not right, or acknowledged as condecending. Seriously, the perceived changes are mostly general exaggeration of features due to changes in style over time.

Moe, Smithers, and Ned still count (though the actual Flanders is ironically the least so, and not nearly as bad as plenty of other characters). Regardlessly, Sokka definitely doesn't count. I think we need a separate article or something.

Trogga: Why was the Stewie Griffin part removed?

Mr Onimusha: I don't know, but I know that Wilson has not been Flanderized by any stretch of the imagination. Him making the error in Skin Deep, while an incredibly stupid thing for an oncologist - any oncologist, ever - to do, hasn't been mentioned in any other episode, was not a character flaw to begin with and has had no effect on Wilson as a character. Hence, I've cut that section and I don't know why I didn't do it already. If someone wants to defend it, go ahead.

Jibar: Is it really fair to say Luigi has been flanderized? He never had any personality in the first place, he was just a lighter clone. Come on, you've got to give him some defining characteristics.

That Other 1 Dude: Really, that's more of a character expansion since he had nothing unique before.

That Other 1 Dude: O'Malley being a Card-Carrying Villain wasn't Flanderization. His personality varies depending on who he's inhabiting, and he's just like that when his in Doc.

That Other 1 Dude: I removed the thing about the Welcome to the N.H.K. manga because that falls under Character Exaggeration (as the manga is an adaptation of a novel).

Ninjacrat: @Ikacprzak: What the hell?
Vampire Buddha: Removed this
* Subverted, perhaps not deliberately, in The Venture Bros., where pretty much the whole cast started out as huge, cartoonish, one-note jerkasses who were obvious parodies of other cartoon characters, and developed into complex, nuanced, sympathetic characters of their own.

I've never seen The Venture Bros., but it seems to me like this isn't a subversion of Flanderization, but rather good old Character Development.

That Other 1 Dude: I still don't think this should be on the page, but I could see what they were talking about because it's the kind of show where you would certainly expect this to happen.

EDIT: Thank you Rann, for telling it straight.
That Other 1 Dude: The things about the Devil May Cry anime and Pucca show fall under Character Exaggeration, since it happened through adaptation.
Andrew: That Nazi example.

Tanto: Um. Yeah. People never talk enough about the good things the Nazis did. Right.

Pulling it, based on the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment:

  • The Nazi party. Extending far beyond their use in fiction, The Theme Park Version of them has become practically the historic standard for anyone under the age of 16 or so. In reality, the Nazi party was brought in by popular vote (Hitler was especially charismatic) and beyond the racist undertones (which hardly even started out as a particular agenda for ethnic cleansing), worked to benefit the country as much as it could. Kids are instead taught The Theme Park Version, which basically turns them into a bunch of snarling monsters that somehow got into power with a 0% Approval Rating and did everything to oppress not just the select minorities, but pretty much everybody not in power. World War II has become less of a natural event caused by the building political pressures imposed on Germany from World War I and more just a clear cut "evil empire threatens the free world". The reason this version has become popular is because there are a lot of subtle shades of "evil" in all of this that teachers are just too lazy to teach. It's much easier to say "Nazis were evil incarnate" instead of saying "the people accepted the anti-Judaism stance of the Nazis because of a combination of propaganda and because when acting under a higher power, any normal person can do horrible things".

The Uncredible Hallq: Any particular reason the Futurama example (Fry) was deleted?

That Other 1 Dude: Honestly speaking, Fry has always been a complete idiot. His first response to finding out it's almost the year 3000?:
Fry: Wow, a million years.

Firelegend567- "Tedd in El Goonish Shive before: a shy, insecure boy with a talent for mechanics bordering on Mad Scientist levels. Tedd after: perverted poster boy for Author Appeal whose only remaining scientific apparatus, the Transformation Ray, was handed to him by aliens."

Contested, Tedd was always an Author Appeal pervert. In fact, if anything that tendency was much more prevalent during the early days of the strip. Tedd has actually through a bit of character development when it comes to his insecurities and he still modified the gun.
That Other 1 Dude: Bob, neither of those things about Metroid have anything to do with Flanderization. Ridley and Kraid were obviously suppose to be huge and were just bigger due to differences in graphical capability. Also, it's never clarified were Ridley or Kraid ranks among the Pirates. Not focusing on Samus' backstory (which they never did in the first place) has nothing to do with this either.
That Other 1 Dude: Rebochan, wouldn't this happening to Holmes with other authors count as Character Exaggeration and/or Jean Grey Escalation.

EDIT: As is that thing about The Last Days of FOXHOUND.

Rebochan: I noticed no one ever moved it, but you're right - I'll moved the Sherlock Holmes stuff to Character Exaggeration and take it from here.
That Other 1 Dude: Disputed
  • Misa Amane from Death Note. Upon first introduction, she was an Ax-Crazy sociopath whose level of general insanity rivaled that of her "Boyfriend", Light Yagami. Sure, she had some ditzy moments, especially when it came to a certain would-be god, but she was also shown to be deceptivly inteligent, even getting the best of super genius Light when they first meet. But the writters quickly picked up on her affection for Light, and elevated it to the dominant, and then only, aspect of her personality, turning her into an ditzy and inefectual Kira-fangirl, effectivly rendering her Light's pet cheerleader. This is most evident when, in the second arc, Light cheats on her with Kiyomi Takada, and her response is merely to try (unsuccesfully) to kick Takada in the shins. The original, pre-flanderization Misa would have likely responded by kidnaping and torturing the offending women, and then presenting her severed head to Light as a token of her affection.

Wasn't that was because she had any memories related to the Death Note? Also, that definitely wasn't Obfuscating Stupidity.

Nezumi: Thank you! I was starting to think I was the only one who noticed some of the examples of that were absurd. My favorite were accusations of these happening to Lara Croft because Tomb Raider: Legend and Anniversary portrayed her as being traumatized by watching her mother vanish off the face of the Earth while still a child, or being deeply shaken by killing a human being for the first time in her life. Yes, because not being a sociopath means you're subject to Chicikification or Faux Action Girl.

Pro-Mole: How is this a "Subjective Trope"? The definition is quite clear, and just because people want to Round Hole Square Trope it to death, it doesn't mean it is subjective.

Austin: Because whether something is being exaggerated or whether it was exaggerated from the start is based on perspective. Not everyone notices a change.

Austin: "Five-Man Band. That is all."

No it's not. Details are our friends.

Trouser Wearing Barbarian: Re-added, with an explanation.

Lime: Ummm... Could someone fix the title?

Rebochan: Why is it that every time I hear the word "emo" I start to twitch? Oh right. Because nobody has any idea what "emo" is and they just chuck around to describe any character they don't like that is not a happy fun ball of good cheer regardless of his circumstances. Holy crap is that Final Fantasy VII entry a pile of whining. You know what? I'm pulling it - it has no relation to anything that happened in the games, it's just a few people whining that Cloud isn't a Super Awesome Unemotional Badass (he never was!) or that Sephiroth isn't Kefka II (he never was that either).

Masami Phoenix: Removed the following from the Smallville example. Chloe's transition from "girl who was good with computers" to "elite hacker" was standard flanderization. Chloe's possession by Brainiac was the explanation on how she instantly went from "elite hacker" to inhumanly good, a situation that was immediately noticed by the characters (although they didn't figure out it was Brainiac actually possessing her for some time) The text also was a bit too vitrolic. I personally thought it was a very interesting plot arc. Not a "badly done lampshade"

  • That the series would later give the excuse that her ever expanding abilities were actually a nascent superpower only this much worse with a badly-done lampshade.

BritBllt: If I could venture a suggestion, a lot of these "trope flanderization" complaints really come from the fact that the tropes themselves aren't defined very well sometimes. There are a few entries that are so filled with self-referential humor and commentary that I can't figure out what they're actually talking about. Rather than complaining about how people "flanderize" the tropes, maybe the solution is just to clean up some of the trope articles. I'd be the first to try, but seriously, I really don't know what some of the worst offenders are trying to say. Other fairly new tropers probably have the same problem, and when they try to make an honest contribution anyway, we get another entry in this article's "trope flanderizing" list.
  • Cliché: We mostly have the complaints here as it is the best way to signal problems with the wiki (since so few people use the Talk Pages). Also, from my psychological observation of troper behaviour, instinct seems to only care about the trope title regardless of description, hence the reason a lot of the tropes end up here. The worst offender by far is X, Just...X potholes (thank gravity those ended up mass zapped). It's kind of related to what you're talking about, because having a counterintuitive trope name for a certain description (especially based on community in-jokes) makes the tropes harder to understand. I also feel it's somewhat difficult to effect change on this site, since then we have the community traditionalists arguing against change, leading to troper inertia. Oh well, it doesn't hurt to try.
  • Anyways, welcome to TV Tropes. I appreciate your well thought out feedback and will attempt to act on it.

Fast Eddie: This section seems to have accuracy problems and comes off as the wiki working on operational issues in the article. Let's use the forum and/or discussion pages for that sort of thing, okay?
    TV Tropes Wiki 

T Beholder: ...and then add a single link to this all. Yeah. The only question is: exactly what place this belongs to?

AceofPlaces: I'm gonna have to object to the following, after actually watching the episode in question.

  • Lina Inverse of The Slayers has suffered this severely, especially with regards to her greed. She started out as a bad-tempered Black Magician Girl who enjoyed going out and mercilessly destroying bandit camps for their treasure, but by the latest season (Slayers Revolution) has become something of an inhuman monster, going so far as to rescue a fishwoman, then immediately seek out a chef to sell her to him despite pleas not to! In the past, while Lina was definitely shown to be a mercenary, almost invariably refusing to help somebody unless they paid her for it, she never came across as so evil that she would sell a person whom she had just rescued. This, in this troper's opinion, has sent Lina beyond the Moral Event Horizon, ruining the character for him.

First of all, Lina wasn't in the business of rescuing the hostage in question in the first place. She was out roughing up pirates because she had run out of bandits. Rescuing the fishwoman was more of an incidental side-effect. Also, said fishwoman had recently given a long, detailed speech about how Lina was a heartless, godless, cruel, ill-tempered, fire-breathing, small-breasted witch who would sooner set your head on fire than look at you. The way she probably saw it, she was now in possession of a giant fish who has just really pissed her off.

So she goes into a restaurant (probably not specifically seeking out a place to sell the fishwoman, since the general rule is when Lina and Gourry aren't fighting, arguing or complaining, they're eating,) And it occurs to her that hey, fish are edible. This one's huge, and will probably fetch a good price if she sells it to the chef at this restaurant.

So basically, she was going about her business, got insulted without much provocation, got offended and decided to sell the perp when the opportunity arose, instead of actually seeking it out.

It does seem a little harsh to sell a sentient being, but it really doesn't seem quite as flanderized as all that. Also, Rule of Funny.

Steve the Pocket: What happened to our "Real Life" section? It seems to have been completely exorcised without comment.

Great Pikmin Fan: some of the Total Drama Island example was sliced off, why?

JP 4490: Cutting this:

  • Originally, Mario and Luigi from Super Mario Bros. were simply of Italian descent (originally from Brooklyn, as portrayed on the animated series and The Movie). Then when the Nintendo 64 came out, they became fully Italian, complete with stereotypical Italian-a accent-a.

The only real sign of them being Italian in the games is the voice - it's not like they suddenly gain other stereotypical aspects of Italians to go with it (Even then, the Mario games don't make much use of speech or character background). Also, the official games are being compared here to the cartoons and movie story, which aren't necessarily the definitive versions of the characters.


Power Girl has always been very buxom; Wally Wood made a point of it. (though the whole "make them bigger every issue till the editors notice" thing is an urban legend) It's just that the standards have changed. When she first debuted she was around a D cup, which actually was quite busty for a Golden/Silver Age character: the focus back then tended to be more on the legs, hips and waist, and the bust would usually be around a C. But as cultural focus shifted more to the chest, comic book women got bustier, and since Power Girl is supposed to be very busty even for a comic book character, she had to be redesigned accordingly.

Would it be save to say that Flanderization and Character Development are polar opposites?

Komodin: Pretty much.

Someone explain to me how Sanji of One Piece supposedly used to be mr. awesome and a chick magnet. He has always been embarrassing around boobs, right from the very start where he gives Nami stuff on the house just because she's pretty and batted her lashes at him. Those 20 girls (and a dude. Go on, check for yourself) he was wooing at the same time? Were on Whiskey Peak, where the whole population was just trying to make the pirates feel welcome so they could turn them in for the rewards on their head. Of course the women there were going to play along.

Michael JJ: Alright, here's the deal. I'm trimming the entries for Trixie and Tootie on The Fairly Oddparents since those look like they may result in Internet Backdraft. If you still have a problem with it, delete it without an attack on my person. I wouldn't have cared the first time it was deleted if the editor in question hadn't given me a personal accusation. Edit without the attitude.