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I'll try to make this an actual review guys.
I personally think that the first few chapters and episodes of Bleach were better than most of the series in my honest opinion. This is because the cast was more focused than it was now (So many pointless characters), the characters were likable, and they all actually had their own decent motivations. It could have been a good Slice of Life action anime/manga.
But noo.....we go full shonen. All the flaws in the series were taken Upto Eleven from here. This is one of the many issues that I have with Bleach cause I felt that there was so much wasted potential in doing this.
Oh, and remember when Ichigo randomly got a burst of power when fighting hollows in Bleach's early stages? After the series takes this route it becomes FILLED with these moments. A clear example is when he was fighting Grimmjow and he clearly states "I don't have much power left" or something along the lines of that and then a few scenes later, we are then treated to a Curb-Stomp Battle while STILL IN HIS BANKAI STATE!
And that's not even the biggest asspull in the series. In my opinion, one of the biggest asspulls was when Ichigo almost died fighting Ulquiorra and transforms into a Vastro Lorde to protect his friend (with no foreshadowing whatsoever). We are then treated to another Curb-Stomp Battle in which I still firmly believe that he wasn't even trying when he was fighting ulquiorra. Plus, when Ichigo finally gets the chance to kill the bastard, Uryu stops him and says "If you kill him, you won't be human anymore." What? Didn't he kill most of the other arrancars in his hollow form already? Nice attempt at trying to make them seem like nice people Kubo. Then after that bullcrap, Ichigo reverts back to his normal state and after seeing Ulquiorra in his beaten state, he then asks for him to "cut off his left arm and leg" *facepalm*. This isn't heroic, this is just stupid.
And don't even get me started on how many times the plot is reused and rehashed with each arc.
But on the bright side, the animation is very good in the anime, especially in the later seasons. I actually like the art style (but some characters look artrocious) and it's entertaining to see these characters act like idiots but it's nowhere near as bad as "Shit Farts Online"
Basically, turn off your brain when watching this.
Ichigo has had his hollow takeover during his fight with byakuya, yammy, grimmjow (world of living), and he hollowified during his training with the visoreds. He started to have his powers come up after being a soul reaper, that wasnt a power boost but rather ichigo simply started to awaken his untapped potential. He hollow also started to shield him during his fights with renji and kenpachi but it was first shown during his training with kisuke. His power has been fluctuating every since he obtained bankai. Due to his fear of becoming a hollow his power has dimped and risen when confident. Also, soul society restricted and absorbed his Reiatsu further weaken ichigo.His powers are not asspulls and that form is not a vasto lorde. He never had a vasto lorde hollow in him but an experimental arrancar created by aizen. Ulquiorra when first meeting ichigo mentions that at his highest level, his Reiatsu surpasses his and at its lowest is insignificant threat to aizen. So his power is not aspulls. Also the quincy war and fullbring arc are not the same as soul society. Same as substitute shinigami arc. Hueco muendo or arrancar arc is not the same to soul society because one rukia was not kidnapped, he returned to social society because she was AWOL and duty to face trial. Arrancar arc started with the invasions, ichigo/friends/gotei 13 training, and ichigo being depressed. He then went to hueco muendo when aizen took orihime.
@Charisma: Ichigo (and Bleach in general) pulled multiple asspulls.
Ichigo's very first fight was an asspull. A guy who had never seen or fought a hollow before gets a powerup (by allowing Rukia to stab him) and suddenly becomes strong enough to 1-shot the same hollow that nearly killed an experienced Shinigami.
Ichigo needed to become stronger in order to rescue Rukia from SS, so Urahara came up with different inventions to fast track Ichigo to awakening shikai (in about a week) and bankai only 2 days later.
Or how 'bout when he got owned by Jhwach and suddenly gained the ability to use Blut Vein? It came out of nowhere, as in, no foreshadowing. And the backstory that revealed how it was even possible was convoluted to the point of being nonsensical.
That\'s shonen plots in a nutshell. Characters coming up with power ups to catch up with veterans that have trained their whole lives. I don\'t know what line of shonen you would say doesn\'t do that. Besides that, Bleach does explain that Ichigo has a larger amount of spiritual energy through his connections to both his parents, while Rukia\'s spirit power potential was signifigantly less.
A lot of real life stories do have younger competitors surpassing older counterparts. The manga does shorten the window considerably for the sake of drama, but its not as ridiculous as you make it sound. What\'s more important is that its entertaining. The training arc of Ichigo\'s soul chain eating itself is rather terrifying and I found Ichigo\'s interactions with the Vizards to be interesting, considering their various dynamics.
I won\'t defend the final arc because its really hard to understand any of it. So much goes on in it, and yet in multiple points nothing progresses. However, I think that Bleach\'s issues with its audience have more to do with the shrinking screentime of Ichigo\'s friends in favor of the Soul Society captains whom are mostly Static Characters and have little in terms of dynamic chemistry, in contrast to whether or not a fight was fairly portrayed or if this power up was justified or unjustified.
I can only think of three exceptions: Patlabor, Ghost Talkers Daydream, and Maken Ki. The first one's a paranormal detective drama, Patlabor is a police procedural with mecha, and the last is similar to Bleach but with better writing and pacing.
Takeru is basically a deconstruction of Ichigo and shonen protagonist, in general. Like Ichigo, his power level fluctuates based on his resolve and his power increases rapidly. But, unlike Ichigo, Takeru's lack of experience and forethought is repeatedly shown to be a detriment. Which is why he loses to people who are weaker than he is. It isn't until Takeru finally begins to train properly, like the other students, that he finally begins to win fights.
Which is the other thing that I like about Maken-ki!, because power levels aren't the end-all be-all of winning a fight. The series goes out of its way to explain and repeatedly show that it's possible for a weaker opponent to defeat someone several times stronger than themselves, depending on their relative levels of skill, intellect, or by exploiting the flaws in their enemy's technique, etc. It's a refreshing break from the norm.
I might be able to take that opinion seriously if Maken-Ki wasn\'t...everything else it is.
@VeryMelon: If you're referring to the fanservice, you can skip most of it by simply not reading the omake chapters. The manga itself is relatively light on fanservice, unless it's a chapter that involves Love Espada (which isn't often).
If you think Maken-Ki is \"light\" on fanservice at all I don\'t think we\'re going to see eye-to-eye about it\'s other problems either. So I\'ll agree to disagree and move on.
Maken-ki is no different than Bleach or Fairy Tale. If you can bare the fanservice in either of those, I don't see how Maken-ki is any worse.
Melon, this man once argued that the stamina system in Breath of the Wild was not poorly-designed because you could exploit glitches to ignore it. And that the weapon durability system was not poorly-designed because some guff about a completely different game that was in no way comparable to it.
It\'s better to shrug and give up than engage in any way. He\'s just not got anything coherent to say.
Yeah, that\'s why I opted to peace out instead.
@SpectralTime: You say may counterargument (on your BotW review) was "incoherent", yet you understood exactly what I meant and couldn't refute it. Instead, you essentially threw a tantrum and rage quit.
And I have yet to see a valid criticism of Maken-ki! from either of you, other than the fanservice aspect. If anyone should be "peacing out" it's me, since it seems clear that neither of you are interested in having a civil discussion.
Rukia got distracted during her fight because of ichigo and got several weakened from being bitten by the hollow. Before ichigo got involved she was easily handling the hollow. First ichigo didnt have bankai until after kenpachi fight. Kisuke was a captain and scientist and new about hollowficiation and was already helping ichigo and rukia before the soul society arc. So those are not asspulls. Ichigo used blut vene during his fight with kenpachi and his quincy powers got overshadowed by his hollow. His hollow powers also saved him from renji and kenpachi fight by creating mask to block injuries. So blut vene is not an asspull nor is ichigo defeating a mindless monster.
His backstory has been foreshadowed since the beginning with ichigo resemblance to Kaien, his immense Reiatsu, his father giving him a protective charm, his father being companions of ryuken (quincy)/urahara (shinigami), his dad\'s captain hierro, ichigo seeing ghost since he was a child (no other human in the series being able to do so before he awakened their abilties except ishida), ryuken never calling isshin \"kurosaki\", isshin telling a worker at ryuken hospital to tell their boss (ryuken) that it is coming from ichigo kurosaki, his white self saying I\'m zangetsu, and his quincy power never saying his name is actually zangetsu
@immortalbear that\'s not entirely true because people hated the fullbringer arc because there was no soul reapers, captains, or super powerful enemies. That\'s why kubo rushed that arc since the popularity poles didnt like not seeing byakuya, kenpachi, toshiro, and rukia not present. Kubo focused slowly on his nakamura and supposed asspulls until the tybw didnt exist in abilties because shinigami have shikai, bankai, zanjutsu, kido (hado, bakudo, Sealing, barriers, forgiven kido), hollowification, and shunp techniques. The only asspull is final getsuga tensho till that point but beforehand nothing was real unbelieveable given the penchant for preparation. Urahara had several inventions and tools plus yoruichi was a noble. Those are not asspull. An assault is fgt, yoruichis second cat form and nanao sword (if it had been shown before it would be fine but during fight then no), and silver arrowhead are asspulls.
Might want to look up \"not even wrong\" sometime, that\'s all I can say. There\'s rage-quitting, and there\'s realizing there\'s no arguing with gibberish.
@SpectralTime: What exactly was "gibberish"?
The stamina system can be mitigated (even without glitches). I even explained that using the climbing gear with hasty potions turns rain into a non-issue.
There are ways to mitigate to mitigate weapon durability too. That's why I directed you to the Game Breaker page. I fail to see how either point was difficult to understand.
@Charisma: Blut Vein wasn't foreshadowed, it was added to the story retroactively because Kubo didn't think it up until the final arc. The same is true concerning Urahara's past as a captain and Ichigo's backstory.
Also, Ichigo 1-shotting a monster he had never seen before, on top of having no prior combat experience was an asspull. It'd be like giving a highschool student a pair of gloves then expecting them to beat Mike Tyson. Do you honestly think that kid would stand a chance?
I think people are pulling too much toward either side. Ichigo's relationship with shinigamis was forshadowed as was Kisuke's captainship. However Ichigo being a quincy (specially the blut vein thing) was clearly an alteration, to the point that the attempts at trying to make it make sense only contradicted more and more well stablished things. But then again, so did Aizen before so.
To address the point that Chairsama brought up, the larger issue of the Fullbring arc was that it wasted too much time on Ichigo's training, and did not spend enough on his interactions with his friends. Chad briefly brings up training with the new characters and Orohime meets a fellow barrier user, but the audience never sees any Chad or Orohime gain any benefits from these interactions, and the characters remain well below Ichigo's power level. Even Uryu is worfed fairly early in the main conflict of the arc.
When I say the shinigami are Static Characters, I'm not talking about Rukia and Renji who have good interactions with the main cast. I'm talking about captains like Byakuya and Hitsugaya, whom were popular with their introduction, but had no chemistry with the main cast. There was simply no direction to take their characters after the original arc. For example, nearly every battle Byakuya gets in after his introductory arc is preluded with Rukia being in some sort of danger and Byakuya going out to protect her. This is because there is no other conflict that can get Byakuya emotionally involved. Just because characters are popular does not mean they should be forced into arcs, especially if they have no connection to the drama included in the story. Much of the tension in the Hueco Mundo arc is drained when Kenpachi, Mayuri, and Byakuya arrive to save the rest of the cast.
Ichigo's defeat of a hollow was primarily Rule of Cool. Some audiences are willing to watch characters lifting weights for 100 something pages before they actually do something but most audiences don't have that kind of patience. Miin U, you really should not have read more of this series if you are pedantic enough to consider the initial fight of the introductory chapter to be one of the manga's major pitfalls.
Also from a hindsight perspective, it amounts to nothing and if anything (given that Ichigo gained and lost his fullbring powers, rendering all that training meaningless) only serves to create issues. Why was Ginjo made into a substitude shinigami? doesn\'t he acheiving bankai cheapen it even more? even the inclusion of Tsukishima in the last arc felt more forced than anything (Ichigo already recovered from having his bankai broken).
@Immortalbear: I wouldn't call it a major asspull, but it was pretty unbelievable.
I didn't expect Kubo to exhaustively show Ichigo training night and day prior to fighting his first hollow, but there needed to be some sort of justification for it other than 'main character privilege'. A simple, 'Ichigo studies Kendo' or whatever would've sufficed.
Ranma½ is also shonen, but Rumiko Takahashi made certain to establish Ranma and his father as martial artists from the very start. She didn't show him training throughout his childhood, she used flashbacks to different points of his training days instead.
So did Tenchi Muyo!, in which several episodes showed Tenchi practices Jurian style Kendo with his grandfather each morning. By the time Tenchi had his fight with Kagato, it was already established that he knew how to handle a sword.
With Ichigo we didn't get that. He got a powerup then saved the day his first time out.
@miinu hes been training in martial arts with tatsuki since he was 4 years old. Also was involved in several fights with gangsters through junior high and high school
@miinu blut vein was foreshadowed. How do you answer old man stopping his ability. Ishida use rasetongai to move after being poisoned and had other resishi/body manipulating abilites.
Ichigo swings the sword three times, the first catches the Hollow off guard and cuts off an arm, the second cuts off the creature\'s leg when it tries to stomp him and the third kills it. It does not demand a whole lot of effort of how to use sword, especially considering that the sword is much larger (the drawback of weight isn\'t factored into spirit swords except when affected by other abilities) and has greater cutting power than Rukia\'s. The rest is reflexes from dodging attacks which he gained from learning karate and then from many fights he had after school. Again, you are too focused on an introductory arc which is supposed to be hook readers in. Most of Bleach\'s problems come from later arcs, not some single battle that\'s wrapped up in two minutes.
@marcelx it was always foreshadowed about him not being fully Human and his father being a shinigami. Old man zangetsu used three quincy techniques (four if you count final getsuga tensho) and several other details like his getsuga having a Quincy cross and the swatiska notif. I have other proof for ichigos mixed heritage. Even this site mentions it.
@Charisma I said it was forshowed that his father was a shinigami but it was never hinted that he was a quincy. Kubo even had to jump through many hoops and break his own stablished lore and logic to make it happen. You\'re also at the point where you\'re even going against that to try and defend it. Ichigo was said to have awakened blut when he was attacked by that quincy at the beginning of the arc. Also how is the final getsuga tensho, a power passed down from his shinigami father, a quincy technique? for that matter what other 3 quincy techniques did not-zangetsu use?
This is similar to how Kubo took advantage of the Sorting Algorithmof Evil to say Aizen planned Ichigo\'s journey, even though several someone too strong for him came early and he only survived due to plot contrivances.
@miinu proof that kubo admitted this and as immortalbear says use a sword to do three slashes is easy. Also ichigo was still fighting with gangsters and he was always be physically trained by his dad. When did he tell chad he was rusty. Even after 17 months of losing his powers he admitted that due to constant attack from gangsters he still kept his skills
@marcellx what established lore did he break? He used blut during kenpachi fight and then when fighting another quincy used it again. During his sword forging it goes back and shows you the times when he used quincy abilties. We have no idea what isshin final getsuga tensho looks like and the reason it can be a qu in NYC technique is because his shinigami powers fused with his quincy powers. Isshin has one zanpakuto spirit not two. Also isshin didnt lose his powers by using final getsuga tensho but from saving massi. It was always foreshadowed that kisuke was the reason for isshin losing his powers. Aizen also wasnt a retcon.
Even on here the accept aizens plan and ichigo being a quincy foreshadowed. Just because you didnt like how it ways done does not mean it didnt happen or wasnt mentioned
@Charisma: Kubo said it twice during interviews. The first interview was during the time of the SS arc, where Kubo admitted that he didn't originally intend for Aizen to be the main villain. It was an idea he came up with after killing him off. Kubo said he changed his mind because he thought having Aizen be the mastermind behind everything would be "an interesting twist".
There was another interview during the Arrancar arc, iirc, where Kubo said that whenever he got stuck about how to advance the plot he'd simply make new characters. Both interviews are from 15+ years ago, during the height of Bleach's popularity so good luck trying to find them now.
As for your second question: Ichigo told Chad he had gotten rusty after saving Chad from the gang that was beating him up (under the bridge). Ichigo won, but had a black eye and bruises which is why Chad asked if he was alright. Ichigo said it was no big deal, but admitted the fight was harder than it should've been because he stopped practicing karate the day that he finally managed to beat Tatsuki. Which was the same story Tatsuki told Orihime.
Lastly: Swordsmanship isn't simply about swinging a sword, nor does fighting highschool bullies count as "combat experience" (as in, military combat, swordfighting, etc.). Ichigo went from no experience, to 'no experience necessary' and all it took was a powerup.
I give up. Clearly, I\'m not going to convince you and I won\'t argue any further about your nitpicking. Maybe you can later debate about someone else about Super Saiyan speeds are inconsistent or something.
@immortalbear are you referring to me.
@miinu I went back to chad chapter in the beginning fo the manga and do not see this convo, what chapter does he tell ichigo this.
Also a zanpakuto does not have actual weight to a user like a regular sword, and defeating a mindless monster is nothing. You realize there are people who have trained in martial arts and loss street fights. If you have been in real fights that is more than enough. He mentioned in chapter77 (were he is fighting ginjo) he says before middle school I was stronger than katsuki in karate. So constantly being attacked by multiple thugs, professionally training and his dad (shinigami captain) constantly attacking him daily so he is alert and can fend himself should easily allow him to defeat a mindless hollow. Hollows at that level are fodder and rukia lost because she was distracted.
For the interview you sayed that dies not mean he doesnt have thing planned, it means he has changed things. Ichigos background was not altered. There are differences between revisions, retcons, asspulls, plotholes and inconsistent. Aizen is a revision, and subsequent rather than a retcon. If kubo never did that interview nobody would of never known this. This literary devices happens all the time (marvel/dc comics, game of thrones, star wars,etc.) This doesnt prove he hasn\'t planned anything.
@Charisma: I don't remember the chapter number, but it's the scene where Chad was tied up under a bridge. A group of highschool thugs were beating him up because he wouldn't fight back, so Ichigo stepped in and took care of it for him.
Afterward, when Chad asked if he was alright, Ichigo answered he was fine and that he could take it. But he admitted that he had gotten rusty because he stopped practicing karate.
Being blindsided at random isn't training except in shonen and, even then, there are exceptions. Training requires instruction, which Isshin didn't give. All he did was pop out at random and attack, half of which Ichigo couldn't react to in time.
Training is what Yosho did with his grandson, Tenchi.
@miinu Yeah I read that chapter and he never says that its chapter 77. Chad got kidnapped by bullies he doesnt say I'm stale. In chapter 424 he says his training and combat experience as a soul reaper have honed his body and is still useful. Never has ichigo actually shown any trouble with fighting thugs with weapons, beating up his friends, and fightning his dad (shinigami captain). Ichigo was professionally trained until he entered high school, by his father and had experience fighting multiple opponents. So ichigo was always a natural fighter and defeating a mindless monster ( something being overlooked as this hollow never showed intelligence) is quite easy with a light sword that was already attacked by rukia.
It is training because ichigo was being targeted to avoid surprise attacks and his father did instruct
@Charisma: When was Ichigo "professionally trained"? 'cuz I must've missed that part.
As for Ichigo having trouble, yes he did. Several times, in fact. He's only good at unarmed combat when he's fighting someone weaker than himself, like that gang or the lieutenants he fought on Sogyuku Hill. But when it's anyone captain level and above, he gets curbstomped.
Or did you forget how badly Grimmjow wrecked him, using hand-to-hand alone? Where was Ichigo's martial arts skills then?
Like Miun U said, the guy has gone on record that he makes the story as he goes along several times, so you\'re literally going against what the author said to desperately try and keep your non-sensical arguments. There was nothing weird about Ichigo\'s fight with Kenpachi, the author re-troactively said that oh those things were quincy related despite no hint anything out of the ordinary happened. In Dragon Ball it was later said Goku had a tail and transforms into a giant ape because he was an alien, Akira Toriyama has admited that obviously that wasn\'t something he thought of at the begining. You don\'t need to go further with the Aizen thing than the fact that Aizen was initially planned to stay dead, yet he apparently even planned things that happened before thing event. That had been an issue sine the middle of the series, it\'s one thing to introduce new rules, powers, etc. it\'s another when they conflict with something that already happened. Bankai\'s can\'t regenerate, Renji\'s just gets sections destroyed...except when Byakuga completely broke it to pieces when they fought.
@miinu he joined a dojo at four and trained their professional. Ichigo admits he happy he quit the dojo since tatsuki became an instructor so he would have to call her sensei. Also grimmjow beat an ichigo dealing with his hollow taking over him and soul society sealing and absorbing his powers. Not being able to h2h on someone superior means nothing, look at aizen and most captains, does that make their skills any less?
@marcello kubo has never gone along saying he makes the story up as he goes along. He clearly states he plans out things and changes. All writers does this. Renjis bankai got fixed 12th division and never made back to full strength same for ikkaku( we never see him use it again and byakuya never uses his final two forms of his bankai again). There is a difference of revision and retcon. Ishida has shown that quincy had various abilties and ryuken showed that ishida did not know the full history of the quincy. So unless kubo says he never plained for ichigo being quincy initially then it is not a retcon. Adding more to someone's backstory is not a retcon. Nowhere on this site is this even recognized as a retcon. In that interview he had different plans for the soul society at cbot changed it so it is not the same thing as saying I make things up. Even @miinu ichigo was always planned to have his father be a shinigami. Nothing aizen did conflicts with the story.
He said this in the postscript of the novel
"Hello everyone. I would like to begin this postscript by expressing my gratitude as a reader for this novel, which was brimming with love and appreciation for Bleach.I’d heard of Mr. Narita and his works from Mr. Morita, the voice actor for Ichigo, but I had never actually had a chance to read Mr. Narita’s works. This was simply because when it comes to novels, I am a terribly, terribly slow reader. But when Mr. Narita was tasked with writing this novel, I received the chance to speak with him and read his works.I was awed by his amazing talent and his great insight.I was also awed by his deep love for and knowledge of Bleach. I was awed by many things about this novel, but I’d like to discuss, as a reader, the scene that shocked me the most.It concerns the climax of the second part—the scene where Kenpachi powers up. Generally, when it comes to creating foreshadowing in Bleach, I divide them into one of several categories.-Foreshadowing that I would like all readers to notice.-Foreshadowing that I would like one in four, or perhaps ten, to notice.-Foreshadowing that I would like one in a thousand, or perhaps ten thousand, to notice and wonder, “Hey... Just maybe...”And finally, foreshadowing that I lay out over a very long period of time in a variety of places, which only the most dedicated readers of Bleach will notice with a good deal of reasoning from their end. In other words, things that I hide so no one will find, which I will eventually reveal much further down the line in the main story. The revelation about Kenpachi’s powers pertained to this final category.I remember getting chills down my spine when I first read this scene. To think that there was someone who had such a deep understanding of Bleach! And to think that I would end up giving someone else the scene I wanted to show! I read it over and over again, unable to believe my eyes.Normally, I would ask the author to remove such a scene because I had it planned for myself. But I was so overjoyed by the fact that Mr. Narita caught on to this plot point that I asked him to leave the scene in the novel. I think this is one of the greatest joys of being a creator.As a creator, I would like to express my deepest gratitude for being given the chance to read this story, which was so full of love for my creation.
May 8, 2012 - Tite Kubo
@Charisma: Ichigo's hollow didn't start interfering 'til after Grimmjow had already beaten him; including literally using Ichigo's face as a speedbag. You can see it at the end of the clip I linked to, so that hardly excuses why he lost so badly. The part about SS siphoning and sealing his powers was added retroactively at the end of the Lost Agent arc.
If Ichigo was professionally trained, it doesn't reflect in his performance. He sparred with Tatsuki 'til he finally won a match against her, then he quit showing up. His dad's idea of training him was popping out at random times and drop kicking him, and Urahara's idea of training him was damn near killing him. Where was the "professionalism" in any of that?
Narita cottoned onto something about Zaraki, but it doesn't change the fact that Kubo admitted to not planning everything. Other writers have admitted to not planning every detail of their stories to, including some of my favorites.
@miinu his hollow was interfering before that whole fight. When he was at home it was talking to to him and when he fought yammy it interfered. Even ulquiorra notated his powers was fluctuating, at its lowest its insignificant and at its highest it eclipsed ulquiorra. Also you seem to forget that the subsititur shinigami pass was draining his powers and sealing them. Due to him fearing his powers, hollow interference and soul society interference ichigo was nerfed. The training does. He used h2h during fight with ganju, lieutenants, thugs, and it never said he did it till he finally beat tatsuki. Can you find this chapter where it says this? I reread it and he said until junior high I could beat tatsuki in karate. Urahara training was not about killing him. He taught him the basics of swordsmanship and taught him how to dig up the power he used to harm the gillian. Since byakuya killed ichigo he needed him to reawaken his Reiatsu then needed him to turn into a shinigami since he was dead. After that learn the name of zanpakuto and begin teaching the basics of swordmanship and combat. He was able to defeat jidanbo, ikkaku, and renji with those bare minimum. Had did Narita add something when kubo clearly says he was happy that Narita understand the story telling he written about kenpachi since the beginning. It clearly states Narita caught on to this plot point and kubo approves the light novels, so it is not him just adding random stuff. I keep asking for this interview but I have gone through most of kubos interviews and dont see anything as such. In his interviews he states he plans and make changes. No writer as you admit can plan everything but why is kubo and bleach getting shifted on for this fact when it is truth. Have you ever written anything and got in published? If you are so nitpicky about ichigo in the beginning and soul society arc why bother with bleach. You are seriously arguing the first chapter of the manga. If it was so unbelievable why continue with.
@miinu that was never added retoracivel during ichigo meeting another shinigami he shows the badge and tells them he is a substitute soul reaper and the shinigami says no such thing exists. Uryu after learning about it is suspicious and questions if he is being to suspicious. Where is your link, I do not see it. Here in chapter ichigo has been experiencing the hollow affecting him for days and increasing in intensity at a fast rate. His fear of becoming a hollow, soul society, and his zanpakuto stripping his power because it wont let him fight without using him is what caused ichigo to be weak. This happened way before ichigo fought grimmjow.
@Charisma: Re-watch the clip. Ichigo's hollow didn't interfere until he had already lost.
The part about the shinigami badge siphoning his power wasn't mentioned until the Lost Agent arc. Ichigo's power fluctuation was a different matter entirely, so does Takeru's (from Maken-ki!), but he never uses it as an excuse for when he loses. He admits he's lost and tries to improve.
edit: The URL you used leads to a 404 Error page but it's just as well since, according to the rules here, we're not supposed to link to manga scans anyway.
Except he has. He has said multiple times that 1 he makes the characters before the plot and 2 that he suddenly makes a bunch of new characters to advance, which means that obviously Aizen orchestrating Ichigo's life wasn't planned because he was initially gonna stay dead and that Kubo hadn't thought of the arrancar, vizards, fullbrings, etc. during the invasion of SS, hell, he has gone on record saying he didn't initially didn't even think of the shinigami captains.
I didn't even read past the he has never said it line. If you are just gonna reject reality to push foward your excuses of the series, then what's the point? things are a certain way because you say it is and no one can change your mind. aka why bother arguing with you.
And that's the thing, many author make the story as they go along, the act itself is not the issue, is the ones that are bad at it. The author of Claymore was so good at it, no one knew until they revealed it in a interview done after the series ended. The writers of Rick And Morty, for all the foreshadowing praise the show gets, admitted that they actually retroactively make connections to previous episodes.
@marcellx that is not making the story up. Ichigo is the main protagonist. I am not saying he planned everything and I admitted that; for a story this long you must continually add characters and fit them into the story. Before aizen their was someone else who was going to be the villain but he changed. He stilled had a story to progress. He changed the evil deeds done by someone to give a better twist and be suspenseful. This shows he still had something planned.He always had rukia created, orihime, and ichigo. In the oneshot ichigo had black hair abs orihime died. However it got changed, that is a revision. Ichigo dad was always a shinigami but he did not have the concept of leaders in soul society. He got rushed by shueisha and they made him move quicker to soul society. In his oneshot he even had soul tickets which he refused again in the tybw arc. Nothing has broken the canon. Name me a story that is perfectly planned out and executed from end.
@miinu no the shinigami badge is not changing headcanon and since I cannot add scan, the chapters are 190 and 182. His hollow was interfering with him since he returned home and did it doing the ulquiorra fight which your not mentioning. He was scared and shinji mentioned this. Because of this fear and grimmjow fight he goes to shinji and trains to control his hollow. The hollow stopped him from using his bankai during yammy fight and after losing was depressed further. The badge was brought up twice, by uryuu and an actual shinigami. Uryuu being suspicious and the other shinigami not recognizing it nor the term substitute shinigami.
@Charisma: The fact that Kubo didn't originally plan for Aizen to be the main villain is proof that he made certain parts up as he went along.
Notice he never said who the main villain would've been if he hadn't changed his mind about Aizen being dead. That's because Kubo may not have thought that far ahead, at that point. By his own admission, he didn't think of it until after Aizen was supposed to be killed off.
Bryan and Mike (the co-creators of the Avatar series) did something similar with Unalaq's character in The Legend Of Korra. Fans felt Unalaq was one-dimensional as a villain because, originally, he didn't have any relevance to the overall narrative. Bryke retroactively addressed the issue in the following season by making Unalaq a former member of the Red Lotus who went rogue. That wasn't originally planned either and they admitted it.
There is nothing inherently wrong with retconning, unless it creates more problems than it fixes, or if it contradicts the established canon.
I don't get your point anymore. You yourself are now admitting that he does made things as he went along but still continue thinking that he didn't retroactively change things despite there being no hints or contradicting stablished things. Obviously we're not saying he was literally making up the story as he was drawing each new chapter, but based on simple logic there are new things that try and claim foreshadowing that just don't add up. He decided to retcon zanpakuto regeneration to create drama by implementing the new rule that you can't fix your bankai, then tried to Hand Wave the times we've already seen it happen. Komamura? of he's a special case, Ikkaku? er...he did but it's weaker, Renji? well the section broken off as still broken...except Byakuya completely shattered it in ch. 143
@marcellx that is not a retcon though but revision. Retcons, asspull, plotholes, and revisions are different. The bankai thing is not a retcon because we were never given information about broken bankai. Mayuri has his bankai exploded twice and salvaged it and makes modifications. This was explained during hueco muendo mini arc. So new information that doesnt contradict old is not a retcon. Aizen is a revision and byakuya shattering it revetrd it back to to a regular sword in that chapter. Mayuri science is more than capable of salvaging it back and kommarua being the exception is cause his bankai mirrors him.
The 12th division is more than capable of fixing renjis bankai ( mayuri removed all organs and limbs). Nothing about broken bankais changes anything we know. Two characters never use their bankai again ( ikkaku and byakuya stops using his ultimate moves. Which chapter did it state the zanpakuto regenerate in bankai because it was only mentioned that if a sword reverts back to a sealed state in bankai it signifies the users death (chapter 143). Zanpakuto regenerate I do not remember being apart of bankais or even shikai , source for this. Also at the end of ichigos fight with byakuya byakuya states my sword is broken. In chapter 258, ishida fights an arrancar named cirucci and she informs him that any damaged or adjustment faced in her resurrection/release/bankai form is permanent and not changeable. She and others cannot just reseal themselves. In one of the databooks (Unmasked 3), it is mentioned that ggio vega (fought soifon) is stuck in his release state for 2 months using his el sable form
@Charisma: A revision is still a retcon, because it wasn't what was originally planned.
@miinu not really according to tv tropes. A revision doesnt contradict the lore while a retcon does. Exact quote
" Tite Kubostated that, while he starts a story with the skeleton of it from start to finish, he irons out the details as he's writing. He therefore began preparing the details of the story's final arc later, towards the end of the Soul Society arc, which is where the full truth about Masaki's death is revealed. It does not change anything the story has previous said but the detail completely transforms the reader's understanding of what happened the day she died. Yhwach steals the power and lives of all impure Quincies, including Uryuu, his mother, and Masaki (who was once part of the Ishida family). The Hollow kills the de-powered Masaki while Kanae collapses comatose and dies three months later. Uryuu mysteriously survives, much to Yhwach's confusion. The reveal changes reader perception of Ichigo and Uryuu's back stories without contradicting any previous material."
This is the same for other plot points and characters. Any long series (marvel comics, one piece, star wars, etc.) Is going to have new information added or revealed. Nothing about broken bankais, ichigo Quincy heritage, and aizen contradicts anything in bleach lore.
Re-read the first paragraph for Retcon. It states that, "In it's most basic form, this is a plot point that was not intended from the beginning".
Exactly what Kubo said about Aizen not originally being the main villain because, originally, he planned to kill him off.
@miinu read revision https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Revision
Revision not the retcon you are talking am about. Anyway let\'s agree to disagree. Same for @marcellx. We will not come to a conclusion on this and its pointless
@spectraltime and @immortalbear hindsight is 20/20 lol.
We "saw" Renji's bankia shattered and fixed later. It's pointless because your logic doesn't make sense. Absolutely nothing would be a plothole if we applied the rules you just made up. So I completely agree that is utterly pointless to continue.
@marcellx what are you talking about? Mayuri destroyed his bankai during his fight with syzareelaporro and had it explode. Are you telling me it is not possible for renji to have his bankai fixed a month later? After soul society arc ichigo goes home, you telling mayuri science ( the guy who can create serums to regenerate his arm,implant bombs in people without noticing, created a process to turn himself into a liquid to survive death, and more not fix a bankai. Also it was mentioned in chapter 305 that mayuri was capable of modifying bankais and their sexes. In bleach official bootleg karaburi page 10-11 this is mentioned. Here is the link for the page showing mayuri offering renji modification for his bankai and hisagi.
See, you keep fallaciously circling around the issue and then pretend you're actually adressing it directly. Mayuri himself said, in ch 516 that it was impossible, that he can't "fix" them and a bankai never returns to the way it was. He even specifically addresses Renji's fight with Byakuya and the broken parts still are. Like I said, if you actually go back to ch. 143, it clearly shows it completely shattered. And this all started because you couldn't accept that Kubo made this blunders cause he made the series as he went along and tried to retroactively link them when there wasn't (and couldn't) be any foreshadowing. Again, I agree, utterly pointless, so sure, cue whatever else you wanna try next. I'm done.
@marcellx his bankai never returned to how it was. Renjis bankai was still missing segments and ayon modified as best as he could. Mayuri exploded his completely and it was fine again. Uryuu destroyed it and it was fine. You are still ignoring mayuri scientific capabilities and the fact that this is fiction. Modifying something is possible and you seem to ignore the picture I gave you that took place during ss arc. These are spirit weapons. They both lost the power they had and was able to come back. We have not seen ikkaku bankai and byakuya never used the full use of most of his bankai again. This isn't retroactive when cirucci mentioned this, mayuri mentioned modifying his bankai, and Jackie destroying and never getting her fullbring back. This has been present throughout the show. So it is not retroactive.here is the image again. Mayuri survived losing his limbs and heart but is still here. Ichigo survived losing his heart and arms but is still here. Modifying renjis bankai is within the science of this show and isn't a retcon. Also broken and shattered are synonyms. https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/broken
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