Discussion YMMV / OnePiece

Hi, I'm doing well, hope you are too :)

Unfortunate Implications is flame bait, Broken Aesop is not YMMV (and it doesn't fit either because the line is about Orochi, not the entire clan), you might make something about broken base, but it seems more that people simply misinterpreted the line

Hi, thank you for the response.

I'm not sure how accurate it is about only being about Orochi and not his clan because: 1. Hiyori was responding to a statement Orochi made about the Kurozumi clan as a whole, therefore for her to simply reply about Orochi makes no sense.

2. In the Portuguese official translations, the phrase is translated to "Good Kurozumi is burnt Kurozumi", so I genuinely think that this is a case it not being clear if it was singular or plural in the source material, and translators editing to singular to avoid controversy.

The line is a Call-Back to Oden "being born to boil", in this case is because Kurozumi (which means "Black Coal") applies to Orochi as if he's "born to burn". The difference is that it's his surname instead of the name, but the paneling and the context points solely at Orochi

Understood, but personally, I still think it doesn't make much sense since it's a response to a message about the Kurozumi Clan as a whole, and other official translations have involved the plural message.

But in this case I won't add to avoid an Editing War.

The official translations can be wrong. In the Italian official translation (i.e. the one you read in volumes) Chopper is an elk, for instance...

I mean, if official translations can be wrong, doesn't that mean that the official English translation implying that Hiyori was only talking about Orochi could also be wrong?

Yeah, that's where the paneling and the direction come into play, which underlines Orochi, not his clan (or his supporters), as well as the "I am Oden and I was born to boil" line

I mean, fair enough, but I never got the implication from the paneling or direction that Hiyori was solely referring to Orochi.

That's not what I've seen. It's not hard to find criticisms on how she was handled.

Broken Base is only added after a few months have passed. A lot of people are having gut reactions, and it just happened so Oda hasn't had the chance to show that he knows what he's doing

Yeah, so how's that going for ya?

added it in asspulls, yeah

Of course, we should wait until December 26, 2022 to add Base-Breaking Character, The Scrappy or Broken Base entries until six months after the final chapter of the Wano arc is released.

so can my edit stay?

Because she doesn't break the base. She got second place on the world popularity poll.

Fanservice alone does not a base-breaker make. I'm more surprised it's Nami being suggested over Sanji. You need a roughly equal amount of documented hate as love, by my understanding of the trope, and Sanji is WAY more likely to have that than Nami will ever be.

I replaced it with Flampe's entire character inside the Ass Pull segment

Ah, I didn't read the discussion, sorry I acted on my own

Anyway, why would you want to remove it? Mind you, I don't find it an Ass Pull but many people found it as such and, admittedly, there is NO foreshadowing for the event. The fact it can be explored later doesn't make it less of an asspull since it still comes contradicting what was previously explained

I removed Flanpe for this reason: Flampe is not an asspull because she was established before (and Big Mom has 85 children, so a new one isn't out of nowhere) and, as apparently many people missed a page or two, Katakuri self-inflicted the wound to get even on Luffy for a wound Katakuri inflicted Luffy exactly thanks to Flampe's (unwanted) intervention

So sorry for taking so long, my body has sleeping problems.

Katakuri literally spent his fight against Luffy preventing him from transforming, and Flampe was just added just so that Oda could have Luffy win against Katakuri despite the latter having displayed combat style that contradicted that.

Plus, what did Luffy warrant a fair fight? He attacked his siblings and kidnapped Brulee, from his perspective Luffy arrived and fucked over his life, not to mention that he saw Katakuri's face and the dude killed a chef for that, despite him forgiving them for cold tea.

Katakuri didn't display any Honor Before Reason traits, until Flampe came in, she came into existence as an intentional Hate Sink so that Katakuri can look better. Katakuri's honor came out of left field.

Also I don't think the birth thing counts

Edit: If you can see this, wait for a couple of minutes for me to respond, notofications don't exist in this discussion

Don't worry about the late reply, it could also be due to the different time-slots; I'll wait even 24h for you to reply, no problem :)

Anyway, the first part is about the possible Asspull (but again, another Charlotte sister isn't too far fetched and Flampe doesn't have the "perfect power" for that situation), the rest you said is complaining, which you're entitled to have believe (I'd argue that is far from incoherent but this is not the right place to discuss it), but it doesn't matter with the asspull stuff you mentioned and the entries have to be balanced.

Btw, what about the Blackbeard example? Why did you remove it? If you don't give me a motivation I'd readd it, then

I'll concede to the Flampe part (She's honestly nothing to the misogynistic undertone of the series used to have)

But Blackbeard was meant to have that power up, he was supposed to have that Story-Breaker Power, and Marco commenting about his body was Oda's set up to explaining it

It's like saying that the Devil Fruits are an asspull because there's no explanation to how it works, Oda's setting that up too

Even if Flampe was misogynistic, it wouldn't make her an asspull...

An asspull is, by the laconic definition "When an author invokes a new plot twist without properly foreshadowing it". What was the foreshadowing that hinted at him getting 2 devil fruits when it was previously said that anyone who tries to eat a devil fruit would die? That's what the entry is about, it doesn't matter what is explained after, it's the foreshadowing, the hints before the event that are needed to avoid an asspull

Actually, Flampe's not sexist (she's pretty normal as things go)

The point of it all was that Teach was going to be a part of the mysteries in One Piece, the Dark fruit was unique, the nullification of D Fs was new, Teach saying it was the most evil one

Oda is setting it up to be solved, it feels like it's not an asspull because it's a part of the mystery.

Also sorry for making this so long, let's end the argument, I'm starving and just woke up, add what ever you want, we could discuss OP's sexism later

I don't believe Flame is sexist too, just saying that, even if she was (and I don't think she is) being sexist doesn't make something an asspull. I never wanted to discuss OP sexism XD (and I don't believe is sexist, as far as Japanese works go)

I agree that Teach is part of the mysteries in fact I don't complain that him getting two devil fruits is an asspull (I don't agree with a lot of entries in the YMMV page), but understandably it contradicts what was previously said and previously nothing hinted Blackbeard was an exception to this rule. Admittedly, it would be better if other tropers interveened but, as we stand, I think the entry should be omitted

{I think the entry should be omitted}

I need to end this quick, are you removing teach, or putting him back in, can't reply for a while after this

Removed, though I left it open that someone could readd it if he wants since we were just two discussing it (and again, I feel it still comes with no foreshadowing)

I've sent fishysaur a Deleting YMMV notifier advising them of this post so they may come here to discuss it, ~Cosmicztis. Though I realize I may have mixed up Broken Base with Base-Breaking Character. Regardless, if things don't pan out here, you can also try Ask The Tropers or the Base Breaking Character Cleanup thread in the forums for a wider consensus on whether the line in question should stay or go.

Sorry for the war, it's my fault for editing again with no justification;it just felt to me that the entry was going a bit too much listing the negatives If there's the need to restore the entry, do it and I won't touch it

To make sure if it should be re-added (personally I think the entry is okay as it stands with the last edit), I brought it up in the Base Breaking Character Cleanup thread and tweaked the existing entry a little to fix a typo and remove a direct reference to another entry.

I'll say what I said in the thread here. Base-Breaking Character requires that the character have an equal amount of fans and haters. And Sanji, at least according to all the one piece character polls seems to be one of the most popular characters in the series. I don't think his hatedom is large enough for him to be Base-Breaking Character.

The hourglass figure is as present now as the beginning of the timeskip (and arguably even before, but people always point at the TS). In Dressrosa, besides Rebecca's gladiator outfit, there wasn't any more skimpy outfit than Whole Cake or Wano (think of Robin's Animal Kingdom attire). I'd say the "problem" is still present, dunno why people point only against Dressrosa

For Chopper, I agree 100% with what is said, though I think he needs a They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character entry since, whenever a Straw Hat is discussed of lacking good moments, he's the one most often mentioned.

For Rebecca, the problem with the deleted portion is that it says "she was given nothing to do in return" which is wrong, since she had a different character arc rather than "beat Diamante and avenge my mom".

Edit: Sooo... what are we gonna do? We both agree with the removal of Chopper, but it's just us 2. As for Rebecca, maybe say it's a waste she didn't receive any major fight (or fight for what matter) after Kyros took over?

Don't know if this will work, but paging ~razorrozar7 and ~Retloclive done they were either involved in the ATT it the entry itself to get done extra opinions.

I got no opinion on the deleted Chopper/Hogback example, but I will say that the way Rebecca's storyline ended sucked balls.

In the end, she did nothing for herself. For all the build-up of her being the champion of the colosseum to the point of being hated by Dressrosa's citizens, the end result is her just remaining on the sideline doing nothing. The one opportunity she was given to actually do something to pay off that initial build-up of her character, it gets taken away by Kyros.

Thinking of Rebecca's entry, I have no intention of deleting it (nearly everyone wanted her to defeat Diamante), how about changing it this way?

• In the Dressrosa arc, when Rebecca reaches Diamante, the man who killed her mother, instead of fighting him, she flees from Diamante and cries until Kyros saves her and hijacks her revenge arc (In fairness, Kyros had his reasons to fight her as well), while Rebecca ends the Dressrosa arc without getting any meaningful fight.

Ya, that's fine.

I think Hody counts. Most of the hate I see for him comes from people thinking he's a boring and uncharismatic villain, who's involved in arguably the least popular major arc fight in the series.

Momonosuke has never even cracked the top 100 in two separate popularity polls, so there's no indication that he's popular enough in Japan for there to be any meaningful difference. I think he counts too.

Mmmmh good.... I'd like some more opinions, but if noone else says anything... I might write it back

On that note, Absalom actually (barely) made it into a popularity poll once. I'm not sure what Oda's exact words were but "he doesn't have many fans" doesn't necessarily mean he's hated.

A key requirement of a Base-Breaking Character is having "Little in the way of middle ground" to the point where discussion of them tends to bring up arguments. Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, and Hancock have plenty of people who are neutral about them, and discussion about them rarely gets too heated.

The only one fits both of those criteria is Sanji, but even then most of that is based on his handling in the Whole Cake Island arc specifically, not so much the series as overall. I'm confident that things will cool down now that he's back in a more conventional role. If he stays, then his entry should be updated.

I think that there's at least a fair amount of controversy over Usopp (cowardice can be found annoying), Nami (beating up her crewmates and the poster girl for the complaints about the female design), and Sanji (perversion that gets exaggerated post-Time Skip to the point of genuinely almost dying from a nosebleed, and his New World track record in battle)

I'd say Sanji is an example (at least at this point in the story, I think opinions on him will cool down eventually.), and Usopp might be valid too, but I haven't seen anyone talk bad about Nami in ages.

Machvise is far to minor a character to count. A scrappy be hated by a large majority of the fan base, regardless of the language. A minor villain can never generate that level of hatred from the necessary number of people. Plus villains are supposed to be disliked. The hate a scrappy gets can only be unintentional.

I want to see proof that the Japanese fandom dislikes Hody Jones and the reasons why. It seems to be written from the viewpoint of the English fandom only so it is a bad example.

Weevil has only appeared in one chapter. I doubt a majority of fans remember who he is. It is premature to list him as anything until he shows up again in the story. Plus the reasons he is disliked seem to be intentional by the author so he can't qualify because of that. A scrappy can never be intentional.

Agree with cutting Machivise and Weevil. One's too minor, and one is to underestablished.

I'm not sure if Absolom really qualifies as a scrappy either, since all of the fan hatred that he gets is for intentional, Hate Sink reasons (and his hatedom isn't even that large to begin with.).

Hody is the only legitimate possibility, and even then it's hard to tell how much of the dislike because of him being a Hate Sink and how much is because people find him unthreatening, uninteresting, and attached to a bad fight.

Honestly, I don't like this recent tendency to ask for "proof" that Japan has the same opinions from the English community since most of the time it's the same anyway. I think "proof" is only necessary if someone wants to claim that their opinions are different.

I was wondering that as well. Seems like a waste of a bunch of YMMV character tropes.

NVM.

Regarding Arc Fatigue, dunno the problem you're seeing with the first two examples, but the reason the Dressrosa example became a Wall of Text is because the arc ended up suffering from multiple examples of Arc Fatigue after Birdcage literally doubled the entire length of the story arc by turning it into a battle royale. The battle royale had so much going on between the activation of Birdcage, and Luffy finally defeating Doflamingo with Gear 4, that the arc, as a whole, just felt like it had stalled for a good 30 to 40 chapters. The only time that wasn't truly the case was Law's flashback chapters, because it didn't focus on something happening in the battle royale.

You'll have to ask here.

Here, for the record.

Doesn't that technically makes that stament either a Loophole Abuse or Exact Words?