The moment I got a discussion update I knew it was going to be you since I unfollowed the page because of you.
You are really gonna make your stand on this mount right? You really want Omega to be trans just as you want Ahsoka to have an on-screen girlfriend right?
Throughout the series she has been identified as female by several characters including Tech who specificaly said he was looking at her DNA. Furthermore, Omega has shown to identify as female regardless if she was not born as such allegedly. It has also been made clear in episode 9 "Bounty Lost" that Tech was referring to alterations as increased obediance and faster aging, which Omegas has neither of. It is also worth mentioning that aside from her blonde hair, she looks structurely different and more feminen than a young Boba and the clone cadets. Therefore there has been no confirmation to this possibility and should be relegated to YMMV as opposed to her official character page.
Edited by dkisling72
Honestly, I don't think Omega is trans because yes, I do think the Kaminoans think changing someone's sex is a minor alteration given they were specifically referring to Omega's viability as cloning stock. The Clones aren't people to the Prime Minister, they're property. In the context of that conversation, she's unaltered because she's not aged up, conditioned, and can be used as a template.
That said, I do think the trope applies. Because while I think it's entirely feasible the Kaminoans would use such language, it's, well, ambiguous. I honestly doubt it was intentional but the meaning of "unaltered" is unclear here.
If they ever define that word one way or the other it would cease to apply (due to either confirming or denying) but... well its meaning is ambiguous. Eiryu summed it up really well with There's a difference between "Not clearly identified" and "Made actively unclear" and whether it was intentional or not, this situation has become "made actively unclear."
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@Good Gamer 14: Actually I'm mostly just transferring what was already discussed to a more permanent setting because it's too damn long for an edit note or edit reason and ATT threads have a timer on them now. I haven't even watched the series, I just find it darkly amusing that certain people seem to get their hackles up so much about the idea of Filoni's team sneaking LGBT+ representation into a (purported) kids' cartoon. As far as Ahsoka is concerned, I'm just repeating what the writer said. (ETA: I linked it in the OP.)
(FWIW they wouldn't even be the first LGBT+ characters in Star Wars: BioWare beat Filoni to the punch over a decade ago with a couple minor characters in Knights of the Old Republic, to say nothing of what they've done in Star Wars: The Old Republic starting with Rise of the Hutt Cartel.)
@dkisling72: None of those are conclusive evidence one way or the other. Tech could easily be respecting her gender identity regardless of her genotype, hair can be bleached, and I personally know a trans woman who transitioned as a middle-aged adult and started getting hit on by straight guys after she'd been on HRT for less than a year—her facial structure is that different from before. (She's the author of the Aeon 14 book series.)
Edited by StarSword
Honestly, I don't know whether Ahsoka/Bariss helps or hinders the argument. Because while it does create precedent of author intent trying to sneak in LGBT+ representation, it also creates precedent of them outright stating that was their intention.
... also I think it's wild that Ahsoka/Bariss was intentional Homoerotic Subtext but Ahsoka/Trace apparently wasn't. Like... jesus.
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Why would a kid be on HRT and why would it be allowed by the Kaminoans who have been shown to view all clones as property and not care about thier individual feelings?
Frankly no more unreasonable than the Kaminoans bothering with an Opposite-Sex Clone which is equally unexplained. They both are equally explained by For Science!.
Also Omega was Nala Se's personal lab assistant and was genuinely cared for. She did explicitly get special treatment.
Again, I don't think Omega is transgender, and frankly I don't understand the point of debating it here. That said, the entry as-written really doesn't come across as "ambiguous" and seems to be taking a pretty firm stand on "she's transgender" and completely leaves out the context of "unaltered" which is a bit iffy coming from someone who hasn't watched the show. I'd like to update the entry and add in what makes it, well, ambiguous.
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Fair enough on the Kaminoans. I wasnt trying to make this into a debate on her gender. You've got my vote.
Edited by dkisling72
Took a crack at it.
- Ambiguous Gender Identity: Despite being a clone of male Jango Fett, she's assumed to be an Opposite-Sex Clone as she presents and identifies as female and is identified on sight as an enhanced clone, same as the Bat Batch. However, Prime Minister Lama Su later refers to her as an "unaltered clone" bringing up the very real possibility that she was genetically male at her creation like the only other known unaltered clone, Boba Fett, but is transgender. The ambiguity comes from the context of the conversation, as the alterations being referred to were specifically those related to the viability of Omega as a template for future clones note . The lack of clarity of the Prime Minister's meaning behind "unaltered" leaves the door open for either interpretation.
I support the text, Larkman, although labelnote inside spoilers is a bad move.
^^That works for me, although I agree with ^ that the note should probably be done as a parenthetical. (Also you spelled "Bad" in "Bad Batch" as "Bat" lol)
@dkisling: They wouldn't, AFAIK a trans minor would be prescribed puberty blockers (similar principle). See here.
Why the Kaminoans would bother with it? Heck if I know. Quite frankly that contradiction is an example of why I haven't bothered with the Filoni cartoons: they keep trying to sidestep the fact that the Republic and the Jedi are running a slave army.
Added it, factoring in the comments here. Thanks!
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Made one minor addition (possibility that she's intersex, not trans), which was brought up earlier but mistakenly left out of draft example. Example now reads:
- Ambiguous Gender Identity: Despite being a clone of male Jango Fett, she's assumed to be an Opposite-Sex Clone as she presents and identifies as female and is identified on sight as an enhanced clone, same as the Bad Batch. However, Prime Minister Lama Su later refers to her as an "unaltered clone" bringing up the very real possibility that she was genetically male at her creation like the only other known unaltered clone, Boba Fett, but is transgender or intersex. The ambiguity comes from the context of the conversation, as the alterations being referred to were specifically those related to the viability of Omega as a template for future clones (lacking Rapid Aging as well as the biological and mental conditioning to make the Clone Troopers obedient and docile). The lack of clarity of the Prime Minister's meaning behind "unaltered" leaves the door open for either interpretation.
Appreciated, and I also appreciate the fact you mentioned it here in the discussion for posterity.
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I was laughing my ass off when I found out that Wookiepedia has a no tolerance policy towards this "theory" and has deleted any mentions of it. I also found people using the same talking points as StarSword but to no avail.
Like I said, I don't believe the theory and honestly don't think it was intentional ambiguity but that doesn't change the fact the writing made it really confusing.
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They know it's only a fanon theory pushed by overzealous chair-activists that deserves no mention or acknowledgement.
^ 🙄 The Anakin Skywalker article had an on-page discussion of the fan theory that Darth Plagueis was Anakin's father years before the Darth Plagueis novel was published. Might want to get down off that high horse.
Edited by StarSword
I was unaware this was a topic of ongoing debate. I maintain my stance that the current entry is grossly flawed by fixating on her gender identity when the true ambiguity is that she is referred to as both an enhanced and unaltered clone at different points in time. However, judging by this thread you clearly have an ideological axe to grind and I don't care to debate this with you.
^Multiple tropes can apply to a situation. We probably should have included an edit comment that the entry in question was decided by committee; that's on us, and I've added one. I have no problem with you writing a separate Ambiguous Situation example to focus on the "enhanced" versus "unaltered" issue, but Ambiguous Gender Identity has been agreed to also apply. This wiki works by consensus in the event of disagreements.
Edited by StarSword
Agreed. I think a separate Ambiguous Situation example is worth adding.
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Considering Seasons 2 and 3, where we see clone cadets about Omega's physical age in the same art style, there is a very distinct difference in features and build - she's more typically feminine in design. She looks like them, obviously, but not like she's one of them. More to the point, the Bad Batch were surprised by her right from the start, despite clearly being familiar with clone cadets, suggesting that In-Universe she looks different. Everyone else clocks her as a girl at first sight, despite her pretty androgynous clothing. Oh, and her voice actor, Michelle Ang, is different from that of the male clone cadets, who, mostly, are still voiced by Daniel Logan (though a couple of the younger ones are voiced by Julian Dennison). I find that telling. Likewise, the fact that the very exact Tech refers to her as an adolescent human female, and doesn't make any comment otherwise even after discovering that she's an unaltered clone. Likewise, while Nala Se would probably be respectful of Omega's pronouns given her fondness for her, I can't see any of the other Kaminoans or Imperials being the same way, and they all refer to her as female or a girl.
Plus, there's the inclusion of Doctor Emerie Karr, another female clone who shows no signs of Bad Batch style alteration - and the Bad Batch were only altered as a very specific experiment to see if the results were useful. She's altered in the sense that she's got the ageing etcetera, but that's apparently it. Furthermore, her character design is such that frankly, it seems more or less impossible that she's not a cis woman - unless the Kaminoans or Doctor Hemlock gave her gender affirming surgery. Yeah. Let's put that at doubtful, shall we?
So, cis female clones? A thing, apparently. And not necessarily even on purpose, given that the Kaminoans show less than zero interest in her, and she cites Doctor Hemlock as having been her patron (which, to me, suggests a 'you owe me' arrangement).
Truthfully, we don't yet know for certain, but the evidence does seem to point the way of Omega being cisgender. Which is a pity - a trans lead character in a major Star Wars property - but it does raise some very intriguing lore possibilities regarding cloning.
TL;DR: it looks more and more like Omega is cis as of Season 3. Also, there's a cis female clone, which is probably worth mentioning on the ambiguity if it isn't already.
Yep, season three put the debate on her supposed ambiguous gender to bed. The only basis for it was the idea that Omega was a 100% genetic match with Jango. She's got midichlorians, so we know she's not. The entry can and should be deleted now.
Nothing about Season 3 puts this to bed. The writers never addressed this, there is no conformation either way in show, and just going by her character model at the end means absolutely nothing. Omega could have had affirming surgeries at any point. Of the three female clones in canon, we know one is explicitly trans (Sister) and that she was at least open about that prior to leaving Kamino for the war since she was nervous about the Jedi not accepting her but was reassured by her brothers. So we know the Kaminoans didn't care about it since they did nothing to Sister, which doesn't rule out the possibility of medical transition being allowed.
Also Omega is not confirmed to have midichlorians at any point. It is possible, but as best we know her blood is just capable of receiving transfers of midichlorians from those who have them without any drop in count, making her blood a possible bonding agent.
I haven't seen the full season yet, but AFAIK (and I could be entirely wrong at this point) but the Force and cloning have had a complicated history, and Midichlorians in particularly have been very vague about them and especially about whether they can be cloned (Rey's father, who was presumably cloned after Omega and as part of a program specifically to create Force-sensitive clones of a Force-sensitive guy, wound up not being Force sensitive).
It's still space magic, and it working for someone and not another is a pretty weak argument for the genetic process cloning them is all I'm saying.
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^^^,^^Also, for the record, everybody in Star Wars has midi-chlorians (life itself apparently cannot exist without them according to The Phantom Menace), some people just have much higher concentrations than most, which correlates to being able to actively use the Force.
Yes good point, I meant that Omega's m-count is never confirmed to be high enough for Force sensitivity. ^^ Her blood being a bonding agent and the Empire losing that is probably why Dathan isn't Force-sensitive.
Regarding the Ambiguous Gender Identity example that various people keep deleting: This was discussed in a thread on Ask The Tropers that was previously located here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=101954&type=att
Ambiguous Gender Identity is an objective trope, not an Audience Reaction (i.e. YMMV), and was intended as a catchall for essentially any case where canon evidence suggests a character might be other-than-cisgender. It's a Sister Trope to Ambiguously Bi and Ambiguously Gay but for gender-nonconforming individuals.
In this case:
It's also worth noting that the same creative team intentionally loaded interactions between Ahsoka Tano and Barriss Offee in Star Wars: The Clone Wars with lesbian subtext, so there's a precedent in the Filoni shows for making a character subtextually LGBT+ without outright saying it. [1]
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