During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh, no, everyone conducted themselves perfectly cordially and I don’t feel forced out or anything. This cleanup has just been stressful for me and I think I’ll take a break. Nobody did anything wrong.
So I brightend and cropped the Reacher Gilt pic:
The Draftsman of Doom
Still pretty dark...
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
What about the thing I posted about earlier, should I edit the writeup and add it to the drafts?
Edited by nwotyzal on Jun 6th 2020 at 9:09:37 AM
Lizzid people!
Still can't really tell what's going on there.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Technician, Xue, Cormac and Detrick
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Roger and Quantrell
Also, this is more of a general quibble than directed at anyone but...can people stop bringing up Villains Wiki as justifications for adding something here? What Villains Wiki decides is completely and totally irrelevant to anything this site decide, I like don't care if Villains Wiki has someone as "Pure Evil" that's not going to affect my vote
It's entirely new people that bring up the Villains Wiki. Everyone that's been here a while I never see talking about it.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
VW takes gigantic influence from this site no matter how much they deny it. It's only ever newbies that bring it up nowadays, so I don't think enforcing will really do anything.
Lizzid people!
Why bring it up now? Again, if they want to do whatever with their category, it does not effect us in anyway. But I could've sworn we already made a rule against using outside websites for references.
I wasn't asking it to be an enforced rule, I was just giving my opinion on why I dislike seeing it. If I wanted it as a rule I would have phrased it as such.
Lizzid people!
I mean it's annoying, but it's mostly just newbies not knowing better.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Anyway, I just found another candidate.
What's the work?
Jenka's Nightmare is a Cave Story Fan Sequel game/mod. In it, Quote and Curly are mysteriously transported to the island in which the original game took place, and find out why the island is experiencing mysterious earthquakes and warping. The game is very Original Flavor, very much feeling like it could be an official sequel.
Eventually, they discover that the culprit is the titular Jenka's Nightmare, am Eldritch Abomination formed from Jenka's powers gone mad, much like Ballos from the original. It is heavily implied that the death of Ballos in the original game drove his sister Jenka to grief, and the nightmare was made as a result. But can a being made from grief and sorrow possibly have the agency to qualify?
Well, not here. See, the nightmare, in the True Ending path, is revealed to be a pawn of the true villain. I will give you five seconds to guess who it is.
...Times up. It's Dr. Date again.
Who is Dr. Fuyuhiko Date/The Doctor? What does he do?
Thought he was dead? Nope, a small part of him somehow survived and bided his time, seeking revenge on the heroes for thwarting him. When Jenka had her nightmare, Date jumped at the chance, using her nightmares to teleport Quote, Curly, Balrog, Sue, and several others to the island. Taking control of the island, Date turns Sue into her monstrous form from the Undead Core fight and sends her after Quote. When Sue is freed, she and Quote start investigating. He then (at least, I think it was him) creates Suto, a clone of Balrog that is green, but much more Ax-Crazy, and repeatedly sends him after Quote. Through Genesis and Oblivion, the two halves of Jenka's Nightmare, Date causes chaos around the island. Among other things, he traps the spirit of Toroko, The Cutie who was corrupted by him in the original game, and turns her back into monster form. (Even from beyond the grave, the poor girl can't catch a break.) Of course, Quote manages to free her.
When Quote finally beats the nightmare, in the True Ending, he goes to Jenka to check on her. It is here that Date reveals himself and that he was behind everything. So he possesses Quote and goes off to the throne room atop the island. From here on, Curly becomes the protagonist; on her way to save Quote, she comes across Misery, who has also been turned into her monster form from the Undead Core battle, only to be freed by Curly.
The whole time, Curly is worried about her adopted Miminga kids, the Colons. But alas, it turns out that Date already corrupted them into monsters and sent them to kill Curly, forcing her to fight her own children, and later Quote himself. After she saves Quote, the doctor reveals his plan- now that all the scientists and characters from the original game have arrived at the island, he will sink it and kill them all.
Some backstory is given in the final dungeon. Quote and Curly were built by Doctor Sakamoto, Sue's great-grandpappy, and then passed down to Daisuke, his son, who raised them from then on. As a note by Booster recounts, Date was actually friends with Daisuke, and they planned the original expedition to the island, until Daisuke tragically and mysteriously died. As Booster recounts, Date took it the hardest, and Booster surmises that perhaps Date was so obsessed with finding the Demon Crown because he wanted to achieve what his friend could not, and he was corrupted by the Crown, warping him into a monster.
...of course, if this is really what happened, I would not be bothering with Date. Nope, when Curly confronts him, Date gleefully reveals that he was the one responsible for Daisuke's death, because they 'didn't see eye-to-eye on the 'Crown' thing' (in other words, Date presumably was always power-hungry and wanted to use the Crown for evil, to which Daisuke objected), and Date needed Daisuke out of the way. With that revelation, Curly proceeds to kick Date's ass for killing her basically-adoptive brother. Date then fuses with Genesis and Oblivion to become Tristitia, a giant Ballos-like monstrosity with a big eye. Of course, Curly defeats him, hopefully rendering Date Deader than Dead.
Heinousness?
Big Bad, sets it. Has all his canon crimes plus some more- forcibly transforming Sue, Misery, and Toroko into monsters again, corrupting Curly's adopted Miminga kids and making them fight Curly, Mind Rape of Jenka, brief Demonic Possession of Quote, murdering his supposed friend Daisuke, and attempted genocide (trying to kill literally the whole cast and the entire Miminga population by sinking the island).
Mitigating Qualities?
As mentioned before, it initially seems that the game takes a more tragic and sympathetic portrayal of him as a man who had a true friend and went insane when he lost that friend, making him vulnerable to corruption by the Demon Crown.
That goes out the window when he reveals that, before he even went to the island, he killed Daisuke just because the man got in his way. While not directly stated, this heavily implies that he always intended to use the Crown for evil, so all the things he did were of his own will. He does state that a voice (possibly the Crown itself) spoke to him and told him the Crown was waiting for him, but that's it- he made the decision to seek out the Crown.
Verdict?
A yes to yet another Fuyuhiko Date.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
I thought sharks were my friends.
Abstain.
RIP KissAnime.
Xue Ying, Detrick, Dr Date
I can do more looking for a Disc image if we're a bit stuck on Gilt threatening a worker.
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
to Dr. Date
Kyle Detrick and Doctor Fuyuhiko Date/The Doctor. Doctor Quantrell.
@Riley 1s Cool It's alright that your attempted cut on Adam Taurus failed. You explained your points rationally and the discussion was handled in a civil manner. If this clean-up thread is stressing you out, feel free to take a break from it, should you feel that you have to. Take care.
Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 7th 2020 at 1:19:19 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Detrick and the Doctor.
Foreign Troper
@ speyeker I didn't actually think about Meister because he was so delightfully Ham and Cheese. Also I think he was a Graceful Loser, applauding Barry to his performance after he got beaten.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Doctor. Not surprised there are fanwork versions of him who count since his original self was so vile
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Detrick and the Doctor.
Deleted this ZCE from Noel The Mortal Fate:
- Burrows.
Edited by falcontalons on Jun 7th 2020 at 6:27:37 AM
Detrick and Dr. Date. Retinz and Quantrell.
