During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Demise quote.
@Warthog: You're hardly alone. There are plenty of cases where participants in this thread — as individuals or collectively — changed their stances on whether characters qualified.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
So, I know I said I would be taking a break, and I still do have stuff to do. However, I have one more, and I just want to get him out of the way.
What's the work?
Geneshaft is a sci-fi space mecha anime. After a bunch of really bad wars fueled by male aggression, humanity is nigh-extinct. The solution is to create a society based on genetic engineering, where everyone's fate is determined from birth, and create a 9:1 female-male population ratio. Mika Seido, the heroine and a "white" (soemone who's genetic path has not been completely planned out) goes on the titular Shaft, a mecha ship commanded by Lord Sneak, on a mission to protect the endangered humanity from a threat that seeks to finish the job.
The story has a Big Bad Duumvirate. On one end is Oberus, the AI controlling the giant rings that are trying to destroy humanity. Oberus lacks personality, however. The other one, and my first candidate, is the leader of a group of human terrorists who have allied themselves with Oberus. The mysterious leader's name?
Who is Lord Sergei the 4th Sneak? What does he do?
Surprise, surprise, the guy literally called Lord Sneak is the terrorist leader bad guy. I am certain absolutely no one saw this surprising twist coming. It would be more surprising if he wasn't so obviously up to no good in every scene he is in that he might as well have taken acting lessons from Lysandroth. (Seriously, this video basically sums up every early Sneak scene, especially since he has the same motive as Lysanderoth- wipe out the imperfection, humanity in this case.)
So, Sneak, a very respected commander, is a man made from "perfect" DNA. Unfortunately, he cannot stand the imperfection of humanity as a whole, and aims to Kill All Humans so he can replace them with a perfect Hive Mind race, which he will be the Hive Queen of. So he forms a terrorist faction dedicated to subverting the government and bringing back the natural ordrer, having them carry out suicide attacks and such. He also aids Oberus in its crimes, including wiping out entire cities in the beginning. He manipulates Mir, his lieutenant, into weeding out several terrorists for some reason (considering he is their secret boss, I dunno; maybe to keep up his good image). He is shown to be awful and abusive towards Beatrice, another subordinate of his.
Remi Levistrauss, an analyst, works for Sneak on both ends. She works officially as an agent of him, and is also a terrorist. But when she learns that he intends to destroy not just the government, but the human race as well, she turns on him. So he kills her.
Finally, Sneak reveals himself, and an epic final battle between the heroines and him (and Oberon) ensues. Sophia, the deuteragonist, sacrifices herself to destroy Oberon, presumably taking Sneak with it and ending his genocidal agenda.
Heinousness?
He sets it along with Oberon. It is true that Oberon is the one who destroys cities and is directly responsible for most of the destruction, but since Sneak is actively aiding Oberon, the deaths are on him as well. He also shows a willingness to sacrifice his subordinates and kill them for disobedience, abuses Beatrice, and tries to Kill All Humans. Minor villain Jean is also a Hate Sink, but I am pretty sure he does not measure to Sneak in heinousness- everything Jean does, Sneak does and does it bigger.
Mitigating Qualities?
Nope. Being made of DNA is no agency denier, as everyone is made of DNA, and Sneak was created to aid the government- by subverting them, he is going against his purpose/programming. Also, he does have a point that the government he is rebelling against is corrupt, and the new society is kinda screwed up, but while he leads the terrorists in trying to free humanity, he himself does not care for humanity and in fact hates his fellow humans. So, unlike Ralph Werec, my most recent MB, Sneak hates humanity not because of any actual sins they committed (as Ralph did), but simply cause they are not 'perfect' like he is. In short, Sneak is a perfectionist narcissist who cannot stand being around 'imperfect' beings like humanity.
Verdict?
I say yes.
Edited by MasterN on Apr 17th 2020 at 1:45:58 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
to Sneaky Sergei
Goku Black
sneak
Sure to Sergei.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to Sneak.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I was recently reading through the Ravenloft campaign setting and came upon this paragraph in Vlad Drakov's section. This is copied word for word directly from the book.
Drakov has two other joys: hawking and mock combat. He practices both regularly. The hawks are trained to attack on his command, but he rarely directs their attacks against people. He cherishes the hawks and prefers not to subject them to potentially deadly counterattacks. Oddly enough, though Vlad has little regard for human life, he cannot abide the suffering of his birds.
This wasn't brought up in the original write up. While this could be seen to be loving his birds as objects, I still thought it was worth bringing up.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
The Draftsman of Doom
Sneak.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If he explicitly cares about not wanting the birds to suffer, that sounds like caring about them as more than objects, unless he has pragmatic reasons for not wanting them to suffer.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 17th 2020 at 4:58:20 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Lighty? I believe Vlad was one of yours.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Sneak
Also i think Manga!Veran Is worth getting EP
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 16th 2020 at 10:57:30 PM
In Falkovnia, his hawks are status symbols more than anything. He uses them for hunting and pampers them, but there's no real love or affection. It's made clear in many writings Drakov has no human affection for anyone or anything.
the hawk,after all, is a symbol of his legion. It's a pride and representation thing.
Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 17th 2020 at 2:06:27 AM
Cross-wired freak
I'm just now reading the Ravenloft material so I'll trust your judgement on that.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Mr. Sneak Man and Demise quote
Total Tally for Nicholai: 9, 1 abstain, and 6![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
. Any more votes? I won't lose any sleep if Nicholai doesn't make the cut.
Lizzid people!
Mmmm... abstaining there.
Yes to Sneak and unless there’s something much more substantial like with Walker and his birds in Turtles 3 I’m not inclined to read that as mitigating.
Yeah, I've read through the 2001 Campaign setting, the Gazetteer and a lot else...Drakov's never ascribed an punce of warm feeling or human emotion.
Goku Black
Well they are what he uses for hunting and fighting. Makes sense to keep them in good care after all.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The current writeup for Hellmaster Phibrizzo from Slayers is odd:
- Hellmaster Phibrizzo from the second season and eighth Light Novel, the oldest of the Mazoku, wants to destroy all reality. This is pretty standard for Mazoku, but Phibrizzo shows sheer joy by which he conducts his manipulations and when he tortures and kills his enemies. There are few other villains in Slayers who take such unmitigated delight in causing suffering, especially when Phibrizzo seems to target loved ones to give as much pain as he can to his targets.
It looks too general, and overall looks weird. I'm not really familiar with the work in question so I can't really provide a re-write
—signature not found—
Elfen was gonna do that before he bounced... I've been meaning to get into that series so I can handle it after I do that (or someone can link me the EP it came from so I can flesh it out or someone else can take a stab at it).
Goku Black
Yeah thats uh not good. I dont think it specifies what he did.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yeah, Hellmaster....I must've done that YEARS ago...
Also, from the Ravenloft YMMV page:
Complete Monster: See the section here. Pretty much the whole point of a Darklord is that they're effectively this.
....a Darklord is not synonymous with CM and many, many, many of them aren't...a lot of them are godawful people, but many are tormented in an Ironic Hell by whatever cosmic horrors that run the Demiplane of Dread.
So Demise for the quote, Ganondorf for the image? The GSV of the entire franchise and the most iconic villain.
I think I'll split the games and manga. And since the timeline is so wonky, I'll just do by game release date. With the exception of Skyward Sword, since I think that's clearly the first chronologically.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts