During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Vymes, Lewis, Mal and Moriarty
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Dogatie and Triangle
Mir, Yes to your Moriarty.
Future, Why does anyone need it? The body of the writeup should sell you on how dangerous and evil both of them are.
Kaz... I gotta ask man, between this candidate, the anime/manga one (forget who exactly, he had a daughter he loved, Lighty had to bring it to light) and Fumito from Blood-C... what's going on with loved ones being written off? Please scrutinize when it's relevant to the character you're looking into because I'm getting concerned about the pattern here.
Moriarty #I don't even know anymore.
to yet another Moriarty. Ironic he has so many, considering what his original incarnation was like.
Based on the EP, to the Moriarty inciting zombie violence.
Again, the edit is good. Never mind. Disregard.
Kind of surprising how long the original looked. Compared to Blackwood’s, it was stupid long. Haha.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 2nd 2020 at 9:10:12 AM
Moriarty (a weird villain were the original doesn't qualify but a ton of his adaptations do)
Lizzid people!
It's not really that strange.
I mean... iconic villain from classic literature whose crimes didn't cut it. Easy fuel for writers to crank up his atrocities and have their version stand out.
Lizzid people!
Right.
Edited by AustinDR on Apr 2nd 2020 at 9:39:02 AM
So, after discussing over the Honkai Impact 3rd forum, I have come to the conclusion that we should remove the Overseer of Schicksal, supported by at least two tropers who also feel that he is too minor of a character to count.
The main aesop of the comic, Elan Palatinus, is less about a singular villain and more about the inherent systemic problem in the organization. Schicksal as an organization is meant by the author to be flawed and unsympathetic. Most of his villainy is based on the things he orders his underlings to do, and he simply doesn't have enough screentime (when he does get screentime, it's not exactly heinous).
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Someone is gonna need to explain Honkai in major detail to me first because I dunno heads or tails about it still.
Also, Altered Carbon and Doom posts coming, soon. Expect four altogether. Patience.
What's the work?
Scraggle and I revisited a nice little horror film tonight...in honor of the passing of Stuart Gordon, we'd like to present his final Lovecraft film. I did wnat to check Castle Freak but while the Duchess Orsino is debatabley terrible enough for what she does to her son, she apparently loved her cats. But Dagon?
Paul Marsh is an average guy with dreams. Namely being seduced by a mermaid in an underwater city. When out with his girlfriend Barbara and their friends Howard and Vicky, their boat sinks and they end up in the town of Imboca, in Spain. Gloomy, cheerless place, and don't mind the creepy, fishy locals, and the adorable little priestess leader of the place who looks like the lady from Paul's dreams...in truth, the town is dedicated to Dagon, the Old One of the sea...and the made it that way? Captain Orpheus Cambarro, AKA Obed Marsh.
Who is Captain Marsh/Cambarro?
When Imboca suffered a sort of drought and famine, the good Captain arrived with his crew...and he brought with him something dark. A devotee of Dagon, he turned Imboca to a new source of worship, something that would save them if they embraced it. The people prayered and 'offered'....and fish washed up on the beaches in huge numbers, precious metals from the ocean following...Imboca was rich...and so Cambarro turned them against the old ways...
Christianity was abandoned, the statues of Jesus were shattered and cast down. Cambarro led the purge himself, destroying the churches and any who tried to resist were slaughtered, some bludgeoned with sledgehammers. The worship of Dagon was instituted...but there were awful catches. Cambarro took his place as the High Priest of Dagon and instituted policies of human scrifice, with people given to Dagon by having their blood shed, of which we see the sacrifice of a little boy's father under Cambarro's cold eyes. And worse....Dagon needs women, so Cambarro instituted the policy of giving women to Dagon to rape to bear his offspring who began to populate Imboca and breed with human beings themselves....the town becomes nothing more than a cult for Dagon's own activities, thanks to Cambarro in the flashback, with him presiding over a morass of sacrifice and depravity...
....and then he lives out his life with no consequence whatsoever with the entire film his fault.
Mitigating Qualities?
Dagon is probably the darkest film Gordon did, and hoo boy. Shadow Over Innsmouth is a grim choice to adapt, but Cambarro is as bad as it gets. We see him in the flashbacks so we can glean enough: he's a sadistic fanatic who leads the purge of anyone disloyal to Dagon, implements the rape sacrifices and blood sacrifies and turns Imboca into the nightmare it becomes. Everything it on his head that follows.
Now, there's one other villain worth discussing that Scrags will get to, but the priestess, Uxia, is the main villain. Paul's half-sister, she...doesn't keep. She genuinely loves Paul and she's so indoctrinated into the cult, she truly doesn't see anything wrong with any of it. She truly seems to think she's doing people a favor giving them to Dagon because "their child will live forever" and she's so earnest and innocent about it.
But Cambarro was a human man who made dark bargains and brought all this o everything. Easily bad enough and a wicked, wicked bastard.
Conclusion
Happy keeper.
to Marsh.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
What do you mean "too minor to count?"
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Apr 3rd 2020 at 8:10:19 AM
The other Dagon post is...the priest (he's even credited as such!).
Who is the Priest? What has he done?
The unnamed priest is The Dragon to Uxia, the High Priestess of the Esoteric Order of Dagon. While Uxia is relatively Affably Evil, the priest is a cold sociopath whose loyalty to Uxia itself seems tenuous at times. The priest is one of the Order's top figures, preceding over the Order's nameless rites—that is, the violent sacrifice of everyone who comes into Imboca, and turning over women to be raped by Deep Ones—with something of a fondness for Flaying Alive himself.
The priest is the first to greet the four main characters of the movie, whereupon he sets them all up for grisly fates, the women particular for rape and sacrifice. When Paul Marsh escapes, the priest arranges a mob to go after them, capturing him and a local drunk named Ezequiel (the final role of very prolific Spanish actor Francisco Rabal). As punishment for helping Paul, the priest takes a ceremonial knife and flays Ezequiel's face off while Ezequiel is still alive, forcing Paul to watch. Ezequiel comes very much close to doing the same thing to Paul (whom Uxia has clearly ordered to be kept alive) forcing Uxia to directly step in to stop the priest. Paul takes the opportunity to take one of the ceremonial knives and eviscerate the sick bastard.
Any mitigating factors?
I wouldn't say so. He's a relatively bit character but he's the only present day Order cultist with any semblance of any identity beyond Uxia herself. Uxia is no saint, but she has clear redeeming qualities, loves her half-brother Paul and doesn't even seem to comprehend what she's doing is wrong. The priest, by comparison, couldn't seem to give less of a shit. His singular fondness for torture and the skinning scene with him bring him up quite a few notches.
Conclusion?
Bit of a weaker keep, but yeah, hang onto him.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 2nd 2020 at 11:32:39 AM
Yea to the Priest. Damn, damn nasty and his Torture Technician tendency puts him in a tier of his own
That the Overseer is nothing more than a bit character who represents the church's inherently corrupt system.
To paraphrase my post in the HI 3 forum:
The war with the Ming Empire comes about as a product of Schicksal's overly ambitious expansionism. Post-war, Schicksal extorted money from the poor, and the secret experiments were a way to unlock the Black Box's contents; a blind attempt to master its power and consolidate Schicksal's power in the face of the princes who started rebelling, as well as use it to take revenge on the Ming Empire.
Simply put, the problems run deeper than one man here, and the main goal of the story was about how badly humans can treat one another.
A troper once told me that Complete Monster is a tool, not a badge of honor.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Lizzid people!
to Priest
I know literally nothing about Honkai, its characters, nor the heinous standard and why the Overseer would be disqualified, I'm just saying.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
The thing about this not being a badge of honor is correct...but I don't see how the relevance of it here. I've noticed this once or twice in the past but, the "this isn't a badge of honor" thing shouldn't just be something to throw around when debating something. That's accusationary.
So on the guy, is the issue that he's not responsible for the deeds that got him up, or is it just that he's not the one responsible for all the corruption in the church.
If its the former, cut him. If its the latter, then I don't think that's a good reason to cut him. A guy dosent have to be the primary source of evil to count, otherwise we'd have to cut all the minion examples.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
I'm more in favor of cutting the Overseer because IIRC the OP put them and the other Honkai Impact posts on dubious, poorly-researched information, which I suspect is part of the reason why Honkai Impact even became such a hot topic in the thread.
The argument sounds that the Overseer is not the source of his organization's corruption; rather, he's merely a figurehead with no individual atrocity or characterization of his own. Remove him from the system and nothing visibly changes. While I might appreciate said "two other tropers" coming here to add their assent, the agreement of three people familiar with the series against with the Overseer's qualification is enough for me to say strike him. If there's a better, more coherent argument for him right now or in the future, I'm all ears, but I think it's simplest right now to chop him.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 2nd 2020 at 12:11:57 PM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
That sounds reasonable, to Overseeir for now.
Snip snip hooray to the Overseer.
Vymes, Lewis, Dagon duo, Mal and Moriarty
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
If Scraggle's okay with it, and he seems to know the show, sure to Mal.
Yes to Moriarty and Dagon duo.
nwo: Our 2 most prolific ones (Satan and Joker <maybe>) are also like that.
Also:
- The Guy Ritchie series has the Big Bad of each film:
- 2009 film: Lord Henry Blackwood murders five women in occult rituals and is stopped from a sixth, though it is later revealed he has butchered far more. Supposedly returning from the dead, Blackwood begins purging his former Temple of the Four Orders organization of those insufficiently loyal; cruelly killing his own father; and burning another man alive. Intending on starting a massive war to strengthen Britain and reclaim America, Blackwood intends on injecting cyanide gas into Parliament to kill all those there who aren't his supporters.
- A Game of Shadows: Professor James Moriarty, the notorious "Napoleon of Crime", is Holmes's equal in intellect but utterly lacking in any moral restraints. Fatally poisoning Irene Adler for falling in love with Holmes, Moriarty goes after not only Holmes but also his best friend, Dr. John Watson and his new wife Mary with his goons. Plotting to jump-start World War I so he can profit off the munitions sales, Moriarty oversees a series of bombings across European counties to increase tensions and greedily has a businessman killed to acquire his company. Capturing Holmes, Moriarty brutally tortures him and murders the members of the Gypsy tribe attempting to free Holmes, before trying to enact his final ploy to begin his war.
Edited by ACW on Apr 3rd 2020 at 3:58:42 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Out of curiousity, why is Junko Enoshima still listed? It's revealed that the entire DR universe thanks to Killing Harmony, was a Reality Show and that everyone was brainwashed into fictional characters and did not actually exist. Wouldn't that give her questionable moral agency? Or was this already addressed back when DRV 3 was new?
I'm GUESSING we're doing a wait-and-see to see if any more games get made, particularly for Danganronpa's 10th anniversary, and see if they all clarify just WHO Team Danganronpa is, as well as whether or not Junko was brainwashed, still, I think if the implication is there, she might need to be cut.
Edited by Klavice on Apr 3rd 2020 at 1:09:10 AM
Lizzid people!
The anime version of Junko was initially proposed.
