During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Confession time—I'm the one who wrote that entry for Mezentius, three years ago when I had to read The Aeneid in my classics course. At the time, Mezentius' characterisation of "I hate the gods and they can go screw themselves" would have seemed horrifying to the audience, and it's contrasted with Aeneas who does everything that Venus tells him to (to the point of lacking a personality of his own). The fact that he cares about his son simply would not have been taken into account; this is a time period and story that goes out of its way to portray love as a self-destructive emotion that has to be eradicated or controlled. My professor, I regret to say, seemed to share Virgil's opinion on the character (of course the same professor tried to leave the gods out of our reading of The Iliad and portrayed Helen as having run away of her own free will despite Aphrodite clearly date raping her).
All that being said, he's clearly not an example by our standards and should therefore be cut. As for the bit about Neoptolomus, that ain't me, and he's barely mentioned in the poem.
edited 31st Oct '13 1:25:03 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
APHRODIE date-raped Helen?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The scene is as follows. Paris has just gotten his ass handed to him by Menelaus. Aphrodite decides he needs some lovin' to take his mind of off this and orders Helen to go to him. Helen says if you think Paris needs to get screwed why don't you do it yourself? Aphrodite, furious, puts the magical whammy on Helen and forces her to go sleep with Paris. Got a better description of that than date rape?
Lost in Space
From Paris' perspective, it's date rape, if he even bothers to be concerned about it. From Helen's, it's magically compelled sex that she doesn't want, but the person she's having sex with isn't the one forcing it to happen... that's messed up. I don't know what to call it.
Then again, the Greek gods had a penchant for tricking or compelling mortals into bed with one another. Aliens Made Them Do It is the most applicable trope here.
edited 31st Oct '13 1:15:12 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Actually, in Paris' defence (and I'm loathe to defend that snivelling little coward) he doesn't even know it's happening, as Aphrodite and Helen are in another room. I guess the easiest thing to call it would be rape-by-proxy: Aphrodite is using an unwitting accomplice to rape a woman who has effectively been forced into a facade of compliance. In a real life court a prosecutor would probably just charge her with rapenote .
edited 31st Oct '13 1:24:34 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Regarding Ultimate Dr. Octopus, I'm not sure he counts. In his last appearance, he expressed a desire to leave his life of crime and go back to purely scientific pursuits and no longer had any desire for revenge against Peter Parker, then Norman Osborn killed him.
edited 31st Oct '13 3:16:14 PM by TheOverlord
Definite cut
This isn't in reference to the comic book Ultimate!Doc Ock (he definitely doesn't count). It's in reference to the version of Doc Ock that appears in the Ultimate Spider-Man tv show, and who I know nothing about.
edited 31st Oct '13 3:55:12 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah, I thought Aphrodite had sex with Helen ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Nope. Still raped her though.
Any more thoughts on Hades from Kid Icarus Uprising? He's at the moment got two votes to add, mine and Lightysnake's.
Removed The Aeneid entries.
Also, was it ever decided to add Opal from Artemis Fowl? Dr Psyche had a writeup here
Yeah, it looks like Opal's supposed to go up.
Also, here are some Literature YMMV entries:
- Complete Monster: Arthur M. Snider turns out to be responsible for raping and murdering Captain Anderson and Sub-lieutenant Miyazaki. Julia vows to expose him and destroy his good name now that the war is over, but the novel ends before we see him get his comeuppance.
- Addie Bundren. She requests to be buried in Jefferson because she knows the journey will be a hardship for them. She hates Anse for getting her pregnant and hates her children for being born, and wants to cause them as much suffering as possible with her final act
- Complete Monster: Arthas finally achieves this by KILLING his own good side in a mental battle, leaving only evil within him.
- Complete Monster: In Still Life with Crows, Job's fundamentalist grandfather is this for being the reason he turned out like that. He forced Job's mother to keep him underground and out of sight to hide the shame of her Teenage pregnancy.
- Complete Monster: Horrabin the Clown, the mad and deformed Beggar King of London, who deliberately disfigures his beggars so they can look more pathetic and beg more effectively. He's also got a gang of... once-human things in his sewer lair, and threatened his already mutilated father with a truly dire fate. "I'll make you something that has to live in a tank!" No wonder Horrabin's dad killed himself.
- Dog-Face Joe is pretty nasty too, especially when he orchestrates his own execution by angry mob ony to switch bodies with his killer for fun.
- Complete Monster: The Little Man who runs the Land of Toys. He has no regrets about any of the horrible things he's doing to little boys. He specifically targets gadabout boys, whisks them away, turns them into donkeys, sells them, and gains millions of dollars. The book calls him a horrid little being, so it's canon.
I've read Still Life With Crows. Like most books in that series, it's not as good as it thinks it is (any series about an intellectual that has him believe Pascal's Wager to be impeccable logic has serious problems). That being said, Job's grandfather is a Posthumous Character who never appears in the story in any way. His mother would be a better candidate for CM-hood, though her clear insanity and possible good intentions exclude her.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll ask again: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=737#18411
Heinous enough or standard villain?
EDIT: And maybe this weekend I'll comb through the Western Animation, and then Literature, making sure the YMMV matches the CM page. Then the big ones: Live-Action TV, Live Action Film, then...nah, Anime & Manga is just too much
edited 1st Nov '13 1:46:37 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Okay.
What I'm about to say is going to be VERY controversial, but...
I think [[Manga/Monster Johan Liebert]] should be disqualified from Complete Monster status.
HERE ME OUT.
I know most of you are probably about to leap down my throat for that comment, and who can blame you? Johan has been the poster boy for Complete Monsters for YEARS. Please don't think I'm DILPing him. By all regards, he's an absolutely horrible individual, and well over the Moral Event Horizon, but he does have one altruistic quality.
His love for his sister.
It's a very unhealthy love yes, but it does seem truly genuine. I kept watching the show and waiting for it to turn out to be faked, but that never happened. And since General Tarquin was disqualified from Complete Monster status because of his love for family members (And Abridged!Frieza was disqualified for an even smaller Pet the Dog moment), despite the two of them commiting actions that are just as bad, if not worse than Johan's, Johan may have to be disqualified.
Johan is is most certainly a monster. But he's not a COMPLETE monster.
Well for that I bring out the Bellatrix Argument. Is it love or just obsession.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Film!Bellatrix anyway.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I think a potential difference there, is that Bellatrix couldn't love Voldemort, for the simple fact that she didn't know Voldemort to develop anything but the most shallow of feelings.
Johan on the other hand, is Anna's BROTHER, and the two had been together for years, easily long enough for Johan to develop genuine affection for her. Also, if we go through some of his more humanising moments surrounding her:
- Convincing Anna (and himself) that he was the one who went through that horrible experience at the Red Rose Mansion so that it wouldn't scar her mind.
- Stating that his worst fear is losing her.
- Allowing her to shoot him just to make her happy.
- Crying and reaching out to her when they're first reunited in the hospital.
All this suggests a more genuine love than Bellatrix's fangirling.
On top of that, Johan does actually seem somewhat remorseful for his actions. When Anna finally forgives him, you see him pause for a minute. And when he says that he is irrideemable, he almost seems sad. As if deep down, he doesn't WANT to be a monster, but he doesn't know how to stop, nor does he think he CAN stop. A true Monster, would express amusement at her comment, thinking his actions perfectly justified, not sadness.
Cleric of Banjo
I'm not sure how it plays into things, but I believe there is a follow-up manga (which I'd consider dubiously canonical) wherein Johann pulls an Alex and loses his interest in doing evil- I also think it implies something to the effect that his insanity has disappeared. As I said, dubiously canonical.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Yeah, I'd probably consider that non-canonical, or at the very least a MASSIVE one-eighty, especially considering Johan's final words to Tenma, essentially a Take That! to Tenma's attempts to redeem him.
As stated before, while I'm doubtful that Johan is a Complete Monster, I still think he's WAY over the Moral Event Horizon.
I can't help but feel this same argument against johann has come up before
I've heard the redemption argument already.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Neoptolemus kind of fails the heinous standard too.