Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Cut Bryce and no to Monty. My personal hatred for the show and the 3rd season aside. A cut is a cut.

I'm gonna be as unbiased as possible here because Bryce Walker becomes a subject of Alternate Character Interpretation this season. While he loses any chance he had to be redeemed, the show questions if he even can be, had he have the chance and I'm gonna lay all my cards on the table.

Okay, so this season on 13 Reasons Why Bryce gets a Karma Houdini Warranty. After he gets let off with a smack on the wrist he's held accountable for being a Serial Rapist by just about everyone except for his new girlfriend Ani and we see his life go down the tubes. He becomes a little more three dimensional and complex character as he briefly feels regret for his past and tries to fix his life and reach out to those he previously hurt and salvage his life. Both the fandom and In-Universe characters debate if Bryce is being sincere as The Atoner or is just trying to get back his old life and relationships.

In any case his status as The Atoner get subverted when he breaks Zach's leg out of spite because he helped his ex-girlfriend Chloe. Bryce later gets the shit beaten out of him in retaliation and goes on a volatile Villainous Breakdown where he begins threatening Zach and those who reached out too. Alex puts a stop to this when when he has Bryce thrown into a river, where he drowns on account of his broken arms and legs.

Here's my thoughts on Bryce Walker and if he stays or goes. Because Bryce gets subjected to being "Complex" without actually making him redeemed and as such becomes a subject of Alternate Character Interpretation in regards to his actual motivations and characters in-universe question if he in sincere about it. In my honest unbiased opinion, it can accurately be summed up with him going through a Heel–Face Revolving Door, before it slammed on "Heel" Even in light of his Villainous Breakdown, I don't see it as enough to actually subvert his all of humanizing moments.

So here's my thoughts on him staying or going and what I was able to lay down. It should be noted we see Bryce through different eyes of characters who have some bias for against him.

1. While the season does humanize and flesh him out, it doesn't redeem him. I think it's important to note he still acts like his usual self throughout to remind us he is still Bryce Walker, with the new crimes under his belt including breaking Zach's leg, because he felt he was still entitled to Chloe; threatening Zach and Jessica during his Villainous Breakdown (This happens after he claimed to be The Atoner). And most of all threatening a kid with a knife while vandalizing a house, never showing an ounce of guilt over scarring the kid for life. He even dies more hateful than was previously shown, and acting like he was entitled to forgiveness during his breakdown.

2. While Bryce does realize late into the season what a bad person he is and how badly he hurt others, at first his at atonement come off more as him trying to salvage his own life and reputation now that it's gone down the tubes. It takes him a while for him to realize just how bad he fucked up, and why his old friends don't want anything to do with him.

While he frequently tries to reach out to some people, he also admits a couple of times that he's trying to prove to himself that he's actually worth something. And during his Villainous Breakdown he admits he's angry that his life and future has been ruined, while other characters call him out for bringing this on himself. He does make an effort to change and shows sincere remorse in his apology to Jessica. That being said one could make the case that he throws it away by lashing out at her in his last moments. The problem is the apology tape isn't revealed until well after Bryce's death. While the reveal of his apology tape doesn't come until after his death scene, I do find it telling that one of the people he's threatening and cursing at is the same girl he just tried to reach out too.

3. One of the Pet the Dog moments that I can't say for certain are self serving his interactions with Tyler. You could make the argument that this is an example of Bryce fixing his own life because he wants to prove to himself that he's worth something, since Bryce says so to Monty.

In the case of his mother their relationship is complicated, since they've become strained after Bryce's rapes were revealed. He's also upset about his dad leaving his mom after the families scandal. I just don't see what Bryce would gain manipulating her, and he was upset when he thought she hated him, and they make an effort to bond with eachother.

But for the rest of it, it certainly seems initial "regret" is because people are holding him accountable for what he did and he is just trying to salvage his own life. I really don't by him telling Tony he felt "regret every day" for what he did to Hannah, since we know that isn't true of the previous seasons and I don't think he sincerely realized how bad he was until Tony actually listened to Hannah's tapes. Before that he got hard at the memory of raping Hannah.

4. Most of what we get in humanizing Bryce is his relationship with Ani, and seeing it from her perspective as an outsider who hasn't been there to see Bryce in action, but impulsively claims to know everything about everyone around her. Just about everyone in the fandom make the case that she's a rape apologist due to her own personal feelings for Bryce, mainly because she ignores and overlooks his past, and even goes as far as to claim that Jessica - Bryce's rape victim - slept with him, and tries to downplay or ignore his past in favour of what she prefers to see. Bryce himself admits to feeling the impulse to rape Ani, and time and again lets his previous self slip through the cracks. Mind you its in the context of him realizing there is something wrong with him. She obviously only seen one side of Bryce is biased in her worldview, which makes the fact she's the narrator all the more annoying, since that means the narrative doesn't expressly say she's wrong.

5. None of the other characters forget or forgive him for what he did (accept Ani) and the whole reason Alex ultimately killed Bryce is because he realized despite what he claims, Bryce will never truly change. Point is Bryce certainly isn't redeemed, but the show does flesh him out to show the characters and the audience a sense of empathy and that Bryce is capable of being human; Zach feels remorse when he thought he killed him; despite their complicated relationship, Mrs. Walker genuinely loved her son, and even she doesn't downplay or ignore what he did (unlike Ani); Jessica ultimately doesn't forgive him despite listening to his apology to her. Whether he actually is capable of change is debatable in the fandom and to the characters, with Ani pretty much being the only one who says "Yes. For sure. Absolutely."

So with all that against him, Bryce certainly has become a more complicated character, and genuinely realizes what a bad person he is and wanting to reach out to those he hurt, but he threw away his shots of redemption during his last night alive, and even showcases he's still who he previously was time and again. While this technically happens after he makes a genuine apology tape, said apology isn't shown until after his death and Villainous Breakdown. As for Word of God weighing, Bryce's actor says that while Bryce has genuinely learned his lessons, and wanted to make amends in his own way, ultimately he can't fight his nature and that's what got him killed; he even admits the characters were right not to forgive Bryce and that he's beyond redemption.

This is Bryce during his apology before his breakdown "Yes, I know I fucked up. I know I hurt Jessica, Hannah and so many people, and I know saying I'm sorry will never be enough. I don't blame you for not hearing me out, but I am seeking help and trying to change. I want to be better, do right by others, and maybe help keep people safe from people like me. I just want you to know I am trying to change, and no amount of saying "I'm Sorry" in the world is gonna make it right, but I'm trying guys, I really am."

This is Bryce after his apology during his breakdown; "OMG guys! Can't you see I'm trying to change ? I am owed forgiveness, but you guys ruined my life, stole my future and now Zach has stolen my girlfriend! I apologized and everything! I outta kill him, and I outta kill you too Jessica, even though who I just made heartfelt apology for you!"

TLDR: I can see him getting cut, they made him too complicated to say for sure if his attempts at redeeming himself were a farce.

Edited by Beast on Sep 6th 2019 at 9:26:34 AM

Cut away. Ugh.

Tbh I think he suffers from a case of a character who'd probably count if they had one or two of those as you argue ambiguity. Not so much when you have all of it though.

Though uh couldn't they have had this in the second season without shoehorning it in right before his death.

Edited by miraculous on Sep 6th 2019 at 7:30:28 AM

Really narrow to Bryce unfortunately. It seems that even if he's beyond redemption, the fact that he at least does have some humanizing qualities, the narrative being so ambiguous, that aren't totally subverted despite the villainous breakdown makes this an unfortunate no.

While they handled it in a way that's clear that there's no going back for rapists, the fact that they tried to humanize a rapist to any degree is very UGH tbh.

This thread is probably in for a shitstorm once I start the effortposts for The New Order: Last Days of Europe if that mod ever comes out considering the subject matter, the themes involved and who the author of that works wants to humanize. I know I can't speculate about works here but I might make a bit of an exception for speculating about this one since I'm the one doing the TNO effortposts. PM me if you want more details about the controversy.

Edited by xie323 on Sep 6th 2019 at 7:36:24 AM

Yeah I am very uncomfortable with the writers feeling they needed to humanize Bryce. The dude raped Hannah, Jessica, 7-8 other girls, was in charge of a whole clubhouse that had a slew of pther girls raped under Bryce's watch, ruined Hannah's life, showed no remorse over causing her suicide, beat Clay to a bloody pulp, threatened a young boy's life, broke Zach's leg, etc.

The dude was too far over the MEH for him to get redeeming qualities, especially at this point.

Bryce

• Knights: The Crown Prince of the Kingdom of Exclude is responsible for the witch hunts that killed a million of persons in the last few decades. Encouraging said brutality to empower the Relics— artifacts holding the revengeful souls of saints—with the deaths of "heretics", the Prince authorizes all sorts of tortures, rapes and mass executions. Betraying his allies after they stop being useful for him, the Prince attacks Sir Willheim and the Hammer of Justice, killing most of the group and using the Relics to bind their strongest members to his will. When his soldiers capture Nina, a girl in love with Mistletien, the Prince orders her to be tortured and puts her feet inside burning iron boots. Once Nina mutilates her own tongue to avoid betraying Mist, the Prince orders her to be publicly executed. When Mist and his friends appear to save Nina, the Prince forces the Hammer of Justice to fight to the death against their friends. Offering knighthood to Mist, the Prince confesses that empowering the Relics was the means to accomplish his real goal of having a powerful army to start expansionist wars because "Being King can get pretty boring".
• Megami no Hanabira: Father Archibald Phillips is the leader of the Flock, a religious organization. Intending to spread up God's Will, Phillips uses the Demon Summoning Program to cause a controlled Demon outbreak in the city of Kazamino to made the Flock look like heroes to the rest of the world. Once the outbreak goes out of control, Phillips sends the Flock to capture all Demon Tamers, intending to keep his facade while preaching God's will to the scared refugees. Wanting to control the situation, Phillips decides to destroy the entire city. Asking forgiveness to God for his own incompetence while blaming everything on the protagonists and his own followers, he's given a last chance to fight the protagonists, Tamers who just want to save their city. He ends up killing his own followers as collateral damage while ranting about how he's God's Chosen One, intending to rule the entire world with fear. Metatron seemingly consumes his body to summon himself until Archibald's soul takes over his body, now seeing himself as the future God. A self righteous man without empathy even towards his own granddaughter and followers, Archibald Phillips causes the deaths of hundreds of thousands for the sake of his megalomania.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 6th 2019 at 10:20:13 AM

Anyway since kodai is staying like before making that a pointless exercise.

Next time please use genuine new information when your contesting someone. Do not regurgitate what was said before in a new form in the vague hope it will lead to a new result because we'll it's been a few years right.

This is kinda a very polite warning that if an argument like this gets re-opened again. Mods will be called.

Kaz, you also doing Hanzo?

Also, Newton, should Lorenzo go first?

If Bryce gets cut, I'll request that tonight along with the Palpatine image.

I'll admit that I actually have Hanzo's writeup saved in P Ms with Kaz. Now its kind of a bit complicated to summarize his crimes.

Yeah

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 6th 2019 at 10:17:42 AM

Here's the thing; I actually like that Bryce was fleshed out a bit this season.

If you asked me for.my personal, more biased opinion, I would proably have been arguing up and down Bryce definitely still counted if his death scene was shown after his apology scene. I think they shown his apology afterwards in order to keep him ambiguous.

At the same time I don't mind Bryce being more three dimensional as an antagonist or character. Hell, if his death and breakdown was shown after the apology I would have been making the case of him a more Complex Complete Monster. But I want to be as unbiased as possible here for the sake of professionalism, so as it stands ambigouity is the only leg I stand on.

I wrote my own analysis of Bryce on Tumblr. Personally I think showing the "human side" of Bryce works from his mother's perspective, since she still seen "both sides" of him, and genuinely loves him despite knowing who he is and what he's done, and at the same time doesn't try to ignore, downplay or justify him. Note: This post was written about a week or so ago, some some of my intial opinion has changed.

Edited by Beast on Sep 6th 2019 at 10:23:59 AM

My bad. Ignore this.

Edited by miraculous on Sep 6th 2019 at 8:19:39 AM

By the way, I have found Engineered Heroics. Dunno, Mysterio from the MCU is listed there and I think it might work better for his entry rather than Fake Ultimate Hero because Engineered Heroics is explicitly villainous while Fake Ultimate Hero can be neutral or even heroic (see: Hercule/ Mr. Satan)

to Malebolgia and Lorenzo. I'll vote to keep Kodai and cut Bryce (though, as a couple of others have observed, ugh).

Never mind.

Edited by miraculous on Sep 6th 2019 at 8:25:37 AM

Whoops may have got those confused.

Cloister sums up my thoughts to a T here. I feel dirty cutting him, but...

I think Heroism Addict fits better for Mysterio.

Bryce seems like one of these cases that are.....just too realistic too count, for a lack of better term.

Yep apparently Engineered Heroics is when the danger is fake. Heroism Addict is when its real.

As the trope page says :

Contrast Engineered Heroics and Monster Protection Racket, where the danger is faked.

Edited by miraculous on Sep 6th 2019 at 8:32:39 AM

Would argue about "realism", but yeah, Bryce is too ambiguous with his redeeming qualities, for anyone to argue that they were fake.

Putting personal disgust aside from the writers' need to humanize a Serial Rapist, Bryce.

I would think so if that's how you normally place the Big Bad.

to Malebolgia, Lorenzo and keeping Kodai