During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Violet
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Lex, thought wonder if Arrowverse Lex might qualify as a Magnificent Bastard?
The Draftsman of Doom
~Mah Stache, any comment on Violet?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I will say Yes to her. i do like these "low-key" complete monsters sometimes more than big large scale ones
to Violet.
to Lex Luthor. Fitting, I feel he's one of those characters who's best when he doesn't count. Their are only two or three versions of him that do right?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
We've got Generations!Luthor; 2 Elseworlds incarnations; Miller's; this one; and Amalgam!Luthor. So, 6, which is a surprisingly big amount.
Granted, one's a version of Joker, and another's a combination with Red Skull.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Ah yes, you are correct.
Edited by ACW on Jun 2nd 2019 at 6:24:17 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Generations is an Elseworld though, so we have 3 Elseworld incarnations.
The Draftsman of Doom
Trash Fire: Violet, Owen's abusive grandmother, is a religious fanatic who regularly mistreated Owen as a child. Initially presented as merely an unpleasant woman, Violet is later revealed to be behind the fire that killed his parents, attempting to drive Owen to suicide by convincing him he was responsible. When Owen is not looking, Violet tampers with his epilepsy medication Revealing her involvement in the fire and her intentions to kill the rest of her family to her minister, Pastor Sterling, Violet blackmails Sterling into refraining from interfering by reminding him that he molested her daughter. Stealing the latter's pet rattlesnake, she attempts to kill Owen's pregnant girlfriend, Isabel, by hiding the snake in the toilet. When this fails, she sends Owen under the porch under the pretense of checking the pipes, trying, but failing to set him on fire while he is underneath. When Owen finally collapses due to his faulty medication, Violet prepares to shoot him and Isabel. A disgusting, self righteous woman, Violet is a chilling example of an abuser despite her advanced age
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 2nd 2019 at 6:41:49 AM
Off topic but Kit Harrington needed therapy? From having to fictionally kill his fictional love interest?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, not quite because of that, but he did need therapy.
Drafts please.
Also, when I de-pothole Other Media and Star Wars, think I'll folderize them.
Edited by ACW on Jun 2nd 2019 at 6:40:07 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Violet, and definitely to Lex.
As much as I want to vote up Lex, between everything you said about redeeming qualities and Freudian Excuse I cannot. I initially thought that much like Queen Rhea you could make an argument that his willingness to kill his family members means he doesn't care about them, but there's still Lena's mother, his upbringing, etc. And hey, thanks to The Monitor his story arc might continue, though probably still not in any way that negates his redeeming qualities in a believable fashion.
As for Arrowverse monsters this season, I'm still in firm disagreement with the argument Diaz doesn't count, and would like to see an effortpost on him. While he isn't the first villain to seek revenge on Oliver in ridiculously cruel ways like Prometheus and Deathstroke, those villainous rampages were motivated by Even Evil Has Loved Ones, whereas Diaz is motivated by losing his criminal empire and simply getting justice for his actions in season six, and I think that's an extremely important distinction. Forenperser, I know you said you'd make an effortpost if there was enough interest in it here, and I for one would still be interested.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Not too sure he'd count But, seeing an EP would be interesting.
Also to Lex.
Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 2nd 2019 at 3:46:25 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Personally? I think I would say yes to Diaz if there was an EP. Over his season and a half run on Arrow he did do enough to qualify IMO. But that is a discussion for another time i guess
to Violet.
to Lex Luthor.
Having watched more of Game of Thrones recently, I can also add my input. Cersei doesn’t come close to counting, she clearly loved her son, though how ANYONE could love Joffrey is beyond me, and had a alas poor villain death, of course, it doesn’t justify her actions. Gregor still counts, but there’s nothing new to add. Euron Greyjoy has personality, but doesn’t do enough for a show like GOT. And to think they said that Euron would be worse than Ramsay. And then there’s Daenerys who, regardless of her moral event horizon, would not count in the slightest. Although I do believe that her face-heel turn could’ve work, but it was rushed and written in a poor manner, had it more time to develop, and better writing, I believe that it would have worked. Of course, I don’t believe that a bad finale is enough to ruin the show, even with a bad season.
I'm all for hearing an effort post on Diaz. Even if he doesn't count, no harm putting the matter to bed.
What Spy said about Lex.
I would EP Diaz in a heartbeat if I were up to date. From what I read he might check out.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
IT is the Third where I am, so it's time to discuss Legends of Tomorrow.
To start... Vandal Savage is getting cut. It may sound weird because it is. The Big Bad of this season, Neron, sent Ray Palmer to Hell (which looks like Detroit) after stealing his body, who met up with Vandal Savage, who was supposed to torture him. But in fact, it turned out that Vandal Savage had completely mellowed out in Hell! Instead of torturing him, he and Ray became friends despite their previous fights, basically redeeming Vandal fucking Savage. I don't think anyone expected him to even be IN the season much less be redeemed. So yeah, he's being removed. a friendly vandal savage... only on Legends
But the aforementioned big bad of the season is also an interesting case. See I think he measures up to the heinous standard - unlike Mallus he actually does stuff, a lot of nasty stuff. He's a demon, and his main goal is to rule Hell. At first, he goes after John Constantine himself, and begins to hunt him down once he refuses to work with him. Neron instead makes a deal with Constantine's boyfriend to """bind""" his soul with Neron, in return sparing Constantine. John finds this out the hard way when he sends Neron to hell - but his boyfriend is sent too.
Now, the deals themselves and upholding them are not redeeming. In this first deal, Neron knew that what he was doing would make life worse for John as much as it would if he was dead, if not worse, as his boyfreind would be gone.
Neron does a ton of other awful stuff throughout, like taking Ray Palmer's body, manipulating Gary, killing Nate Heywood's dad after he backed out of a deal, playing Mind Games with Nora Dahrk over her dad and manipulating her, doing what he did to Constantine, which he enjoys massively... he's a much more "personal" villain. That's not mentioning his big plan to literally unleash Hell on Earth - as he says - "make earth hell again". He also tries to steal the souls of everyone on Earth once. The very silly fourth season is balanced out by Neron.
However... he has a "lover", called Tabitha, who is the Fairy Godmother. This is why I'm hesitant to fully Effortpost Neron. It's unclear how much he genuinely loves her - he refers to her as his pet more than an "equal" and once she dies he's (very) briefly angered before returning to his plan. Earlier in the season Tabitha mentions that she'd rather be in Hell than oppose Neron - it could be Stockholm Syndrome. I noticed that someone on another website made a discussion on this and the opinions are pretty split. I wonder what all you would think of this. If it's warranted, I'll do a formal EP on Neron.
Edited by MahStache on Jun 2nd 2019 at 12:19:47 PM
Axe Vandal Savage. Neron sounds like he could be worth an EP.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
C Ms getting redeemed for the sake of a Joke. This is a new level of frustration. But to Savage.
But I personally would like to see an EP foe Neron.
Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 2nd 2019 at 4:24:47 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Savage, Damien.
Leave it to Ray to get all buddy buddy with a mass murderer.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Definitely effort post Neron, I mean the guy seriously felt like he belonged on a much darker show (probably cause he was John's enemy).
That scene where he's casually walking down the street, whistling to himself whilst car crashes, assaults and murders go on around him was one of the most effectively nightmarish I've ever seen in any show.
Hmm, when watching LoT part of me was hoping to find some evidence that what existed between Neron and Tabitha wasn't "real" love so that he could end up counting, but having watched to the end it really did strike me as a genuine example of Unholy Matrimony / Even Evil Has Loved Ones, which would disqualify him. I read through that Reddit topic and I'm still not sure. But I'd totally be up for an EP and we'll see how things go.
It's also worth wondering whether or not Vandal Savage will pop up again in season 5, given that the premise seems to be "tyrants from the past coming back to life", at least implied by the season 4 finale. In fact, EP Phil Klemmer was asked about this very possibility, and he played coy with the answer, though noted that he'd personally be up for it.
Edited by speyeker on Jun 2nd 2019 at 4:32:02 AM
Cut Savage, but I am looking forward to seeing Neron get an EP
Ray is like the opposite of The Corruptor. Next he'll sit down with the Anti-Monitor and talk out his problems in Crisis, saving the multiverse.
If Savage does come up again, I don't know what they'd do with him. Maybe they'll have him be all nice but the legends obviously wouldn't believe it... or it turns out that he was faking being nice to ray to get on his good side, But for now, we will cut away. Season Five is out next year anyway so there's no harm in doing it now, considering Legends' longer hiatus.
Oh yeah also? I noticed it was the discussion date for star vs. the forces of evil... if toffee is brought up again, and I'm sleeping because of bad timezones (it's 12:40 am rn), i'd like to say that i would still say yes to him. so if thats a thing count my vote.
You all seem to want it, so i'll do a True EP on Neron soon.
Edited by MahStache on Jun 2nd 2019 at 12:42:10 PM
