During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Honestly, yeah, it sounds like a seriously open question which account is reliable with the Ancestor.
Caesar
Afton sounds like he's still as much of a bastard as always.
Wanna hear counterarguments on the Ancestor before voting.
'Yes' to Doc Ock and Carnage. Late 'Yes' to Vaughn as well, and I hope your jaw is feeling better, Austin!
Alright, Tropers, time for another BENTLEY LITTLE CANDIDATE, WHOOP!
What's the work?
The Consultant by Bentley Little.
Your company's got a problem. Don't try to hide it, we can all see. Your stocks are at an all-time low, your employees are unmotivated slackers, and your business partners treat you like a joke. What're you gonna do? Who're you gonna call?
Why, BFG Associates, of course! Our specialized team of experts will gladly come out and analyze your company, suggesting the best ways for you to make price cuts and save money, all while amplifying your productivity and workplace happiness!
So, give us a call, and ask for Mr. Patoff. He's our best agent, and believe us.....he's to DIE for.
Who is he?
Regus Patoff, the titular Consultant, is the top agent for BFG Associates, sent to businesses seeking a consultant to analyze their organization from the ground up, making budget cuts, employee lay-offs or improvement, and the company as a whole a well-oiled machine.
Regus ("Like the talk show host, only spelled with a U!") shows up at CompWare after the CEO Austin Matthews contracts BFG for a consultant, and boy howdy Regus is here to show everyone exactly how to run a company!
What has he done?
Immediately upon arrival, Regus creeps nearly everyone out with his nearly never-faltering smile that doesn't reach his eyes, his tall, lanky form, and his absolutely GARISH wardrobe, namely the fact that he's always wearing bowties that would make Doctor Who eat his heart out.
The fact that he somehow sends 300 emails to people within the span of a couple of hours also doesn't win him many brownie points, especially the ones with Porn-site type titles, that simply say "You shouldn't be reading this email while at work" once opened. Creeeeepy.....
Things start to get ever more disturbing when, after Regus recommends a man named Tyler be fired due to his seemingly hostile behavior towards other workers (Something Tyler had never displayed until Regus showed up), our hero Craig Horne rejects the notion, stating that Tyler is one of thier best programmers.
The disturbing part comes when Tyler is later found dead, having been electrocuted by faulty wiring in a horrific "workplace accident". While hosting a meeting (Regus LOVES meetings) regarding Tyler's death, Regus says, and I quote, "Yes, it's a tragedy. Although— not to be too mercenary about it—(Tyler's) death does save us from having to lay him off and pay him a severance package. And, as I understand it, the company is freed from its pension obligations, as those benefits as currently defined are nontransferable in regard to spouses and families. So basically, it’s a win-win."
Eeeep.
Later, as Regus continues to make several changes to CompWare, notably enforcing mandatory blood drives where people get slashed with knives for blood, the CFO and the Senior Vice President of the company tragically kill themselves, the former through hanging, the latter slashing his own wrists.
Calling a meeting (Urrrggg), Refus promptly does the sensible thing and shows crime scene photos of the two's deaths, taking sick glee in those present's horror, and not-so-subtly implying that it would be a darn shame if the same happened to anyone else.
While CEO of CompWare Austin Matthews is at home with his wife Rachel after a long day's work, Regus pays the two a visit, somehow getting past Matthews' automated secruity system and several feet high security wall without being buzzed in.
After attempting to chat with Matthews about work, Regus is asked to leave, and he walks off.....until a couple days later when, upon returning home from work, Matthews finds Regus chatting up a nervous Rachel, who then attempts to force more work-related discussion onto Matthews, leading him to order Regus out of his house....but not before Regus steals one of Rachel's prized collectible snowglobes, replacing it with one containing rather.....vulgar minifigures inside.
Regus later makes the brilliant idea for a company-wide outdoors retreat into the woods to build "bonds of friendship" between everyone, and hires a psychotic survivalist to run the event, having the man force one of the CompWare workers to shoot a docile dog in the head, then secretly cook and serve it to the other workers, informing them once they are halfway through their meal.
Once everyone returns, Regus insitutes even more regulations, revealing he has implanted cameras into bathroom stalls to make sure no one uses too much toilet paper, has assigned personal assistants to everyone to time every second of their work day, and holds meetings (URRRGGGG) with women where he degrades and insults their weight, calling them cows and whales and the like, forcing them to strip in front of each other and weigh themselves as an attempt at getting them to lose weight and become more efficient.
Soon after creating a new "employees to be fired" list, Regus continues his direction of CompWare as any people on his list who aren't promptly fired wind up dying anyway in horrible accidents, murders, or suicides.
When Craig takes his young son Dylan to work, Regus informs Craig what a pretty daughter he has, and, any time he sees Dylan, Regus insistently refers to him as a girl ("Hey Craig, glad you remembered 'Bring Your Daughter to Work Day'!")
In one of the few moments that Regus loses his cool, Jenny, a CompWare worker, quits after Regus' insane "budget cuts" reach their breaking point.
Regus flips out, stomps into Matthews' office, and goes on a tirade, insulting Jenny's Asian heritage NUMEROUS times, notably calling her a "Slant-eyed yellow slut''" for quitting without so much as a notice.
Of course, Matthews isn't so much focused on Regus' rant as he is the fact that many objects in his office are moving on their own, almost in tandem to how furious Regus is, with said items dropping to the floor once Regus stalks out.
After Jenny has a terrible accident involving a statue being dropped on her head (DARN SHAME WE CAN'T PAY INSURANCE FOR DEATH-BY-STATUE!), Regus announces that all lower-level personnel must be married if they wish to keep their jobs, and that all upper-level personnel must NOT be married if they wish to keep their jobs.
As Craig fights against Regus every chance he gets, Regus goes on to become a consultant at Craig's wife's, Angie's, doctor office, and a consultant at Dylan's school, using every opportunity at both locations to torment Craig's family, even giddily threatening to force Dylan to wear a dress while in school "Like all the pretty girls do".
After John, one of Regus' appointed "assistants" who "monitor" workers takes time to join some workers for a drink at the bar, Regus, informing him that fraternizing with those he's supposed to be monitoring is against regulation, promptly plunges the guy into some hellish nightmare dimension where he is all but confirmed to be cannabilized by demonic spirit thingies.
When Craig's secretary, Lupe, one of the most genuinely nice people in the story, screams at Regus when he begins stalking her around the workplace, he proceeds to corner her in a restroom and rape her.
Lupe later quits, but, as soon as she gets home, she dies a horrifying death of having bugs crawl out of all her orifices and basically drown her with their bodies. Ew.
When Matthews begins investigating Regus and his company BFG, he comes across another CEO who once hired Regus, and is now living in seclusion. This CEO, Brandt, reveals the truth of Regus (Which we'll get to soon) and reveals that everything that Matthews' company is going through, his did as well once hiring Regus, and that, after Brandt's final conversation with Regus years ago, he was diagnosed with Acromegaly, a degenerative skin disease that has forced Brandt into seclusion and ruined his life.
After opening a brand-spanking new cafeteria, Regus calls up Matthews a few days later while the man is home to inform of the terrible tragedy that a mass shooting took place by one of the workers in the cafeteria, ending with 6 dead and 3 in critical condition, but no worries! Both the shooter AND the victims were people on Regus' "can be layed off" list, so now no severence packages at least (OK, I'M SERIOUSLY STARTING TO THINK YOU'RE UP TO SOMETHING, BUD!)!
Following another TRAGIC mass shooting, once again killing 6 workers and perpetrated by another worker, all on Regus' lay off list, Regus arranges another company-wide vacation, this time, a lock-in at the CompWare building itself. It ends with a worker hacked to pieces by Matthews, who later commits suicide in his prison cell. Darn shame, but hey, Regus was JUST about to recommend they be cut out of the company, so hey, win-win!
Showing up at Matthews' home where his now-widowed wife Rachel is, Regus smashes all of her snowglobes except one, and, after confirming with her that her so-called "stocks" in CompWare aren't actually in her name, he proceeds to wave his hand then walk out.
Rachel immediately realizes after said hand wave and the flash of light that followed that she can't move....and that it's snowing....and that there's a big dome around her.....and that a Santa Claus figurine is beside her.....oh. Ooooooh noooooo....
Amplifying his stalking of Craig and his family as more CompWare workers die or get laid off left and right, Regus finally plays his big hand when he kidnaps the loved ones of all the remaining workers and brings them to CompWare.
Revealing a new "device" that uses people as living batteries, with the remaining workers' loved ones being used as said batteries, Regus uses the new CEO Phil, Craig's best friend, as a brainwashed mouth piece to convey this, and gets ever more annoyed when Craig and the workers refuse to let the device testing continue and save their family members.
Regus, using his powers, proceeds to rile up a large chunk of the remaining workers into a psychotic frenzy, and eventually, the dozens of workers are all in a huge fight, with those influenced by Regus going for blood.
Craig and a select other few confront Regus, and the full scope of his plans is revealed.
Regus wants.....a perfect business model capable of being run by one person. No, seriously, that's literally it. Regus wants to create a business so well-oiled and set up in budgets, computer A.I., and all that good stuff, that no one except the CEO is required to run it. Regus' entire plan stems around consulting for companies, slowly shifting budgets and arranging lay offs to not only prepare the company for HIM to take it over, but to slowly get rid of all workers and leave just a machine run by him.
Everything that's happened at CompWare? Regus has pulled on countless other companies, and while some companies were destroyed by the time Regus was doen with them, most others ended up thriving, though not in the way Regus wished, so he moved on to others.
So you see, there IS no BFG Associates that hired Regus out. Regus founded it himself, and uses the name solely as a background check to get people to think he's legit before he hones in on their businesses.
Everything he put the workers through was either to slowly weed out some and get them to quit, thus rendering their severence packages null and void (And killing them if they take too long to quit) or just sadism. If you quit BEFORE Regus' "ultimate plan" had arranged for, he will go BERSERK (As he did with Jenny) and immediately murder your ass out of SPITE.
Regus, having arranged this final brawl between the workers solely for amusement, giddily murders two workers with his bare hands, and, when Craig and several other workers finally rush and butcher him, they are shocked to see that Regus is gone and the figurehead CEO Phil has taken his place, brutally murdered by the workers in their frenzy.
All the other workers snap out of the spell Regus put them under, though nearly a dozen of them died from the brawl, and while Craig is convinced that Regus has left CompWare and will never torment him or his family again, he simultaneously notes that it's solely because Regus is out there right now, under a new name, and doing what he does best....hosting a meeting.
Oh, and Craig also discovers earlier in the novel this shocking revelation when he notices registration on a box.
Registered with the U.S. Patent Office.
Registered with the U.S. Patent Office.
Cue X-Files theme
Freudian Excuse or other mitigating features?
Ah, no.
Regus has no excuse or sympathetic features about him, and while, just like with the Mailman, the hero makes an assumption about who he can and can't hurt (Craig here theorizes that Regus can't hurt anyone who isn't in some way part of the company he's terrorizing), Regus himself shows no actual restraints like this, straight up kidnapping the loved ones of workers and using them as living batteries.
And of course, as is that classic Bentley Little style, Regus is indeed something....NOT human, but, once more, Regus shows nothing in the way of moral agency problems, being a completely human-acting entity, with smugness, happiness, anger, and all those good emotions and personality traits being present.
Heinousness?
Worst in the story, being the only real villain.
Regus here is sort of like an amalgamation of many of Little's villains, which, seeing as this novel is his newest thus far, isn't TOO surprising. For the first half, Regus uses tragic "accidents" and psychic powers ala the Mailman and Newman King to get people killed, while in the second half, he uses possession and mind control abilitiesto force people to become insane kilelrs who slaughter otherfor ala Jedidiah Harrison.
Regardless? Nearly every evil thing in the novel is COMPLETELY Regus' doing, and yes, he's exolicitly confirmed to have been behind every single "accident" that took place, so....
Final Verdict?
Yet another Bentley Little Keep.
Coming this Fall from Bentley Little....THE HANDYMAN (I'm not even joking this will be an actual thing, Jeebus Cripes I llve this author).
edited 9th Jul '17 12:02:12 AM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Yea to Regus. Shame as it sounds Little was pretty good about averting the whole Karma Houdini thing for his previous villains.
Yeah to Regus. All the proposals from this author have been crazy and ridiculous and I love it.
Caesar
Oh, one quick tidbit I forgot that, though not impacting heinousness or disqualifying features, it just a great part of his character? Regus likes to pray to God before starting meetings, even when it's just a one-on-one. Not too weird, yeah?
....he calls God "Ralph".
There is literally NO explanation for this, and it's so weird and hilarious and creepy all at once. Regus will call a meeting, then, right before starting, clasp his hands and say "Dear Ralph, please let this meeting be successful. Amen."
Was it to screw with people? Was it some weird ego trip like "I'm on first name basis with God"? Was he just THAT weird? Who knows, and who cares, it's hysterical.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
No, recommendations today friend-o's. Though I just began my search into the obscure, I'm talking tv shows and movies that people barley know about. Wish me luck.
However, I do have another question. Which CM do you think has the most satisfying defeat/death? I'll have to go with Felix from Red Vs Blue. The BGC (even Caboose) made him look like a chump, and his last word was a pathetic "Wait!"
edited 9th Jul '17 12:27:25 AM by UtterKoala
@CM deaths: I'm partial to the more-recent candidate, Sirius from Bomberman 64's death. The Villains Wiki puts it better than I could:
He fell through space, sparking and flashing different colors while blue and orange beams of light came from him, and he exploded into shards of glass - easily the most elaborate and unique death scene in the game. Very satisfying, after what he put you through.
There's also the other recent Preed baddie. His death sounded quite brutal.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Overlord: That's the same trilogy with Hobby where he tries to nuke NYC. I've got those books; I'll go through them eventually. It's just that the other Doc Ock and Carnage are quicker to just knock off. Feel free to propose that Sinister.
Would anyone oppose having a page for Marvel Literature? We've got the 5 or 6 Marvel Novel Series writeups, the Rooftop Ripper, the two novelization writeups, Doc Ock and Carnage, the Forever Red writeup, and maybe a couple more on the way.
bobg: Ouch 
. Please add the rewrite to the Drafts.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Regus. So he wants people to quit, but only when HE wants them too? Huh, not much for Pragmatic Villainy, is he?
As for CM deaths: Wolfram; Honest; many of Garth Ennis's.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Most satisfying CM deaths? Wolfram, Ramsay, and Honest likely top my list there... for personal candidates, every Seagal villain I've put up gets a suitably brutal death (a usual of the man's trade). There's Yin, Razim, Bill, Preed, Bishop, Shaye... Buppa and Thatcher's deaths were hilariously overblown. I think the most satisfying I can name at the moment is Lacey's death, as he's also a runner-up for one of the most revolting Monsters I can name in recent memory.
edited 9th Jul '17 1:11:23 AM by Scraggle
Foreign Troper
Spider-Man 3 Venom didn't just kill one person, he also killed several cops. But yeah, he still fell a little behind.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
It's a tie between Joffrey and Ramsay for me Regus and Carnage
edited 9th Jul '17 3:48:16 AM by G-Editor
Messenger from another dimension.
Yes to Regus and the two villains that ACW proposed.
edited 9th Jul '17 3:51:16 AM by emperors
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
to book/Carnage and Regus.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Okay, Carnage will still be going up, but he'll have to wait...I just realized that my version's missing a few chapters (there was a scene on the work page I couldn't find, so I cut the trope; someone sent me a PM asking why, I mentioned I couldn't find that scene; they told me where it was; that's when I realized I was missing 3 chapters and 30+ pages!)! I'll order a new version. I don't think it disqualifies him; if anything, it only adds to his list of crimes (there's a massacre). I'll hopefully be able to write him up with next week's batch; I plan Saturday to look through Spider-Man: The Venom Factor and the other two books in that trilogy and see if Hobby or Ock count.
edited 9th Jul '17 4:58:50 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@89381 Venom's tally for Spiderman 3 is 5:
- 3 SWAT officers
- Harry Osborn
- himself
Lizzid people!
Most satisfying CM deaths? Well, there's the High Priestess's death (though it wasn't as bloody as I would've wanted), Ruth Chandler, Rose Armitage, Koba, the DCAU!Joker on both counts, Vidal receiving a bullet in the face, the list goes on.
edited 9th Jul '17 6:38:14 AM by AustinDR
Most satisfying CM death, I'm going for Scar and Frollo, the latter especially because it came after this line.
I can't name just one "most satisfying." I'll just say who's up there.
- Anyone from Star Wars
- El Indio
- Frollo
- Ramsay Bolton
- Arjen Rudd from Lethal Weapon 2
edited 9th Jul '17 6:44:29 AM by k410ren
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
EP for Pinbacker from Sunshine:
What is the work?
Sunshine is a 2007 sci-fi film. In 2057, with the Earth in peril from the dying Sun, the crew of the Icarus II is sent on a mission to reignite the star with a nuclear bomb that has a mass equivalent to Manhattan Island.
Who Is He?
Pinbacker (Mark Strong) is the captain of Icarus I, the first spaceship sent to reignite the Sun.
What Does He Do?
At some point, Pinbacker suffered a psychotic break and became fanatically religious, believing that God had willed that humanity die and that he, Pinbacker, had been chosen to help God in this task. Pinbacker proceeded to overheat the computer and lock the other crew members in the solar observation room, jamming the windows open so that the crew is burned to death. Pinbacker proceeded to wait for Judgement Day, with these words:
- Pinbacker: All our science, all our hopes, our dreams, are foolish! In the face of this, we are dust, nothing more. Unto this dust, we return. When he chooses for us to die, it is not our place to challenge God.
Seven years later, the Icarus II docks with the Icarus I, with the intention of using the nuclear missile as a backup. The crew finds video logs of Pinbacker, who confesses to abandoning the mission. His crew is found charred to death in the observation room. The docking connection deteriorates, and Pinbacker, now covered in third-degree burns, stows away as the crew attempts to return, with one missing the airlock, getting frozen and turning to dust. Once onboard, Pinbacker proceeds to sabotage the computer, murder two of the five remaining crew members and causing the death of a third when he tries to fix the computer. Pinbacker meets his end when the two surviving crew members launch the nuclear missile into the Sun, revitalizing it, with Pinbacker and them on it.
Unclear; there's no indication of what he was like before the mission. However, it's not clear how much he believes his rhetoric: if the efforts to save humanity are futile, why try sabotaging it since it's going to fail anyways?
Mitigating Circumstances?
He's crazy, to the point of being delusional.
Heinousness?
Sets it. All but one death is caused by him.
edited 9th Jul '17 7:32:31 AM by k410ren
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Regarding the Ancestor, I consider the final letter he sends the Heir concerning coming home to be a product of the Heart of Darkness. The ending cutscene shows explicitly that the Heart of Darkness is perpetuating a cycle of violence to try and free itself. If the Heir makes it fall asleep, the Heir commits suicide and another Heir is shown coming to the Estate. In addition, drinking a drop of the vampire's blood in the Crimson Court DLC causes the Ancestor to become metaphorically reborn once he sees the power beyond the gate and connects with it. The fact that the Ancestor's corpse or a shade of him becomes infused with the Heart of Darkness further implies to me that the Heart formed an eldritch connection with the Ancestor. All of this makes me believe the Heart was in control when the Ancestor wrote the letter and simply trying to bring the Heir to fully awaken it. I can't buy into his regret considering he never felt an ounce of it at any earlier point in his life.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If the Ancestor was being controlled by the Heart of Darkness when writing that letter, then that means the Ancestor had no agency, meaning it's still possible to interpret that the Ancestor could have had genuine regrets, but was forced to do the Heart of Darkness's bidding.
And depending on when you believe the Heart of Darkness took over the Ancestor (and this is assuming that the Heart of Darkness really did take over), you could easily say that the Ancestor's more heinous actions could've been caused by being under the Heart of Darkness's control, meaning that he had no moral agency during the time, and the worst thing he did was serve the Countess's blood to the hedonistic nobles, something that may be monumentally stupid and caused a whole lot of grief, but does not compare to what the Heart of Darkness does.
Again, there's too much reliance on Alternative Character Interpretation and WMG based on the words of an Unreliable Narrator. Perhaps that is the point (losing one's mind is a common theme in Lovecraftian works), but since one can still easily interpret the words of the "Ancestor shades" as unreliable and the regret of the Ancestor as genuine, my vote is still ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
.
I suppose it comes down to how the character is interpreted, but I would argue that he was depraved well before coming into contact with the Heart of Darkness and it can't be held responsible for his actions. I am only arguing it was capable of assuming full control in order to force the writing of the letter once the Ancestor opened the gateway and made face-to-face contact.
edited 9th Jul '17 8:01:27 AM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
"I suppose it comes down to how the character is interpreted..." is the important bit here. As I've mentioned, there's too much Alternative Character Interpretation, Wild Mass Guessing, and having to sort through the words of an Unreliable Narrator for me to confidently state the Ancestor is a Complete Monster.
Point is, we don't know when the Heart of Darkness took over, or if the Heart of Darkness even did take over. The shades say it did, but the game even calls into question whether they even are part of the Ancestor, meaning one can argue that the Heart of Darkness merely conjured up an illusion to mock the Heir(ess).
- If the Heart of Darkness took over right when the Ancestor was 'reborn,' then the Ancestor had no real moral agency for the rest of his atrocities.
- If the Heart of Darkness took over right as the Ancestor wrote the letter, then the Ancestor had moral agency during his atrocities, no moral agency during the letter writing so we don't know if he would've genuinely wanted to atone, and we still have no idea if his regrets were actually genuine but he couldn't do anything about it due to being controlled.
- If the Heart of Darkness took over after the Ancestor's death, then the Ancestor's regrets could've still been completely genuine. He would still be a monster for what he had done, but he wouldn't be a Complete Monster.
- If the Heart of Darkness didn't take over at all, then we must ask ourselves if the Ancestor's letter really was meant to atone or if he really did it to send "sacrifices" to the Heart of Darkness. Too much Alternative Character Interpretation here.
Thanks for the updates, Bob.
Regaridng the Ancestor...Lore, have a response to that objection? Just want to hear you there before I vote