During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
A total has-been.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
The Emperor, Ronan, Thanos, and the Bogeyman
Wild Child
Damien.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So is Dwarfstar a confirmed cut?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Wild Child
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
We should probably wait for more votes. Anywho...
Who Is He?
The Joker is the main antagonist of Batman: The Killing Joke. We all know who the Joker is, so I'm just going to his crimes.
What Does He Do?
In a flashback scene shown throughout the film, we're shown the man that would become the Joker, a failed comedian. After learning that his pregnant wife, Jeannine, had died in an accident, the man was pressured into helping some thugs pull a criminal heist at Ace Chemicals. He dons the Red Hood mask during the crime. When the burglary goes wrong and Batman shows up, the man falls into a vat of chemicals, and his fate as the Joker is sealed.
In the present-day, we're introduced to four men, all of whom have been killed by the Joker. Batman goes to Arkham Asylum to investigate the murders, where he finds out that the Joker has escaped and used a decoy, disguised as him.
Arriving at an amusement park, the Joker intends to buy the park from its owner. Eventually, the Joker simply kills the guy before setting his true plan in motion.
Just like in the comic, the Joker arrives at the Gordons apartment and shoots Barbara through the spine, paralyzing her. He and his goons then kidnap Gordon and take him to the carnival. Once there, Joker has Gordon stripped naked and forces him to endure mental and physical torture, planning to drive him insane to prove a point. In particular, he forces Gordon to look at several pictures of his paralyzed and naked daughter. However, despite all of this, Gordon remains sane, if traumatized.
Batman arrives at the carnival and, after taking out the Joker's goons, fights the Joker himself. After a fight, Batman overpowers the Joker, and finally offers him a chance to be rehabilitated. The Joker, after some consideration, refuses, and then tells Batman a joke. The film ends with the two of them laughing bitterly.
Redeeming traits
This is why I'm leaning no. The Joker's backstory as shown in the film shows him as a failed comedian who's pregnant wife died in an accident. This, along with the fall into the chemicals, drives him insane.
HOWEVER, during the final fight with Batman, the Joker mentions that he sometimes remembers his past differently. Whether that line was thrown in intentionally, it does make one wonder if the "backstory" shown in the film is his true past, or one of his fake ones. Also, the Joker never does bring up Jeannine in the present, and his only motive for his actions as shown is to send a message: that anyone can become as bad as he is. With that in mind, it's pretty clear that the Joker is no longer the man he used to be, whoever he was.
The other thing is at the climax, when the Joker rejects Batman's offer of redemption, his words are "I'm sorry, but no. No, it's far too late for that." Is this implying remorse? Possibly.
Heinousness?
He's not quite as bad as the other two versions of the Joker who have in the DCUAOM. Taking his crimes in the film, he commits five murders (the corpses of the four men he killed and the carnival owner), shoots and paralyzes Barbara, and tortures James Gordon.
There's also a man named Paris Franz at the start, who's The Sociopath with an obsession with Barbara, and kills his mobster uncle, but I'd say he's out-heinoused by Joker.
Final Thoughts?
I'm leaning no, but it depends on how mitigating those factors I mentioned above are.
Thoughts?
Why so serious?
I've always been a believer that Joker counts in the Killing Joke comic and the same goes with the movie: I never saw his "too late for that" statement as remorse, but him stating the truth: he IS beyond redemption and that it's too late for him to make things right (and with the Joker being... well, the Joker, he wouldn't really care at this point). This combined with his inconsistent backstory makes me give him a solid .
edited 7th Aug '16 9:35:55 PM by FriedWarthog
Siiiiiiiiiiiip
Joker
No, absolutely not. The sympathy of his backstory, the whole 'one bad day' depiction and most especially his seeming remorse and "no...I'm sorry, but it's too late for that." moment. In addition, for a Batman work, crippling one person and torturing someone else is not really that heinous.
I swear, do we need to put up every single bloody Joker who appears in every bloody single film?
edited 7th Aug '16 9:40:46 PM by Lightysnake
Lizzid people!
True; the Joker is painted in a tragic light in the graphic novel even with the idea that it might not be his actual backstory.
RIP Toriyama
I'll throw in a 'Yes' for Wrecking Paul. Not the most detailed effortpost, but it's enough for me.
Gonna have to say 'No' to the Joker. This is the one time where the Clown Prince of Crime is portrayed (IMO) as sympathetic.
He's actually heinous enough, given his murder of numerous people throughout the film (The people Batman found in the storage locker; The man at the amusement park), crippling an innocent woman, stripping her naked, and, depending on your view, raping her (The comic never overtly implied this, but the film explicitly shows that Joker regularly used prostitutes for sex, and one of them mentions he might have 'found a new girl', leaving it ALOT more likely) then trying to drive her father insane by using pictures of her broken, abused body.
However, ultimately, his backstory isn't really treated as him remembering it, IMO, but rather what actually happened, and it is easily a big enough Freudian Excuse, and his "Sorry, it's too late for me" is, again, IMO, him being genuinely sorry that he can't be redeemed. So, 'No' for him.
Anywho, write-up time. Seeing as Demon!Dodge hasn't gotten any votes recently, and the 'Yes' votes were winning by a margin, I'll go ahead and write him up. Anyone who wants to give some last-minute chime ins, go right ahead.
- Locke & Key: The unnamed demon who possessed the teenager named Lucas "Dodge" Caravaggio is a sadistic and cruel monster who is behind all the bad happenings in the story. Originally a seemingly animalistic entity, the demon, taking the name "Dodge" after possessing Lucas, develops human-like emotions and personality, however this only enhances his capacity for wickedness. An emotionally manipulative psychopath, the demon happily commits various atrocities throughout the story, from turning an emotionally unstable teen into a Serial Killer, to physically and emotionally abusing a woman before Mind Raping and eventually ruthlessly murdering her, to deliberately forceing a recovering alcoholic into a drunken stupor simply to strain her relationship with her daughter. Eliminating anyone who could oust him as a monster, the demon goes to any lengths to silence those suspicious of him, from destroying their minds, leaving them as empty shells, to outright killing them, with children being no exception. After possessing a young boy named Bode, leaving his soul trapped as a ghost unable to interact with his family or ask for help, the demon first kills the boy's best friend who gets suspicious of him, then uses a shadow army to capture hundreds of people, killing any of them who resist, and reveals his master plan: To bring forth a select group of his kind who will assist him in taking over the world, massacring any humans who resist and turning those who survive into his tortured slaves, all for his newly developed god complex. Though originally having no morality, the demon showed that after possessing Dodge he had become fully aware of morals and good in the world, but chose to turn on his whole race and become a god to rule over humanity because he simply liked being evil.
- Guardians of the Galaxy:
- Thanos, the Mad Titan, is one half of the Big Bad Ensemble of this non-canon continuation of the film of the same name, and is a truly wicked monster. Already established as a truly wicked individual through his crime of torturously experimenting on a young girl named Gamora to turn her into his brainwashed weapon after butchering her entire race, Thanos uses her and his other "children", Nebula and Korath, to commit various atrocities across the cosmos, always subjecting them to horrific punishments should they fail him. Searching for the Cosmic Seed, an artifact of immense power, in the present, Thanos goes to any lengths to obtain it, leading assaults onto entire planets in his quest for power. With a prideful nature matching his power, Thanos orders an entire space station annihilated just to prove his power, and is willing to kill his own soldiers in attempts on his enemies' lives. After torturing Peter Quill both physically and mentally for the location of the Cosmic Seed, Thanos arrives on Earth to steal the Seed, and immediately begins terraforming the planet with it, planning to use the Earth as a weapon to travel across the universe and destroy everything in his path as a show of his might. Egomaniacal and psychopathic, Thanos is easily one of the worst villains any Marvel Animated series has to offer.
- Ronan the Accuser is a former Accuser for the Kree Empire, the other Big Bad of the series, and is just as bad as the aforementioned Thanos. First appearing in the Origins shorts, Ronan quickly proves himself a monster by committing genocide against the entire Groot race, along with running gladiator games and slave camps. Returning from the grave thanks to his Dragon, Nebula, Ronan shows no apprecation or loyalty to her, regularly abusing her and even seemingly killing her when she outlives her usefulness. Attempting to destroy the entire planet of Xandar as his first crime when revived, Ronan later tries to force Black Bolt, a powerful Inhuman, to destroy his entire race due to Ronan's believing them to be filthy abominations, and follows this up by attempting to incite a war by killing hundreds of people, including the leader of the Kree, and blame it on the planet Spartax. Refusing to take blame for his crimes at all turns, Ronan tries to force Gamora, his former personal assassin, to accept the guilt from crimes she committed on his orders, including genocide, murder, and destroying a planet's gravity, leaving it a barren wasteland. After acquiring the Cosmic Seed, Ronan proclaims his plans to "cleanse" the universe of all those who he deems disgusting and unworthy of living, and, when Thanos steals the Seed from him, Ronan tries to blow up Thanos, the Guardians, and the entire Earth to wipe out all his enemies in one fell swoop. A genocidal maniac obsessed with forcing his personal view of "justice" onto the entire universe, Ronan the Accuser stood out as a disturbingly dark and wicked villain for this relatively optimistic and lighthearted series.
edited 7th Aug '16 9:56:36 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Re Dwarfstar: I remember the discussion on him. He was voted to be heinous enough, no need to cut him. Though I will say his entry could be improved.
Re Killing Joke Joker: Going to echo lighty's thoughts. He's obviously played for some sympathy so he can't count, even if he was heinous enough.
Re Damien: I could've sworn he was discussed a while ago and voted to be cut. Something involving his Freudian excuse and motivation I thought.
edited 7th Aug '16 10:04:30 PM by OccasionalExister
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Mistah J
Anywho, I have a concern about Cotys, and the search function isn't helping: When Hercules confronts Cotys on his lies and refuses to join him, Cotys is perfectly content with paying Here's crew and sending them on their merry way. Is this a small redeeming moment, or Pragmatic Villainy? If Herc hadn't just stated a moral repulsion to Cotys's crimes, and was just a mercenary who'd completed a job, I'd assume the latter, but the context gives me pause.
Well....
Who the hell wants to fight HERCULES if they can help it?
A total has-been.
Yeah, I'm actually going to echo what Fried Warthog said about Joker in TKJ - I think he was sad and semi-remorseful for what he was, but didn't truly regret anything he'd done and continued to commit even worse actions afterwards, continuing to embrace his madness, sadism and malicious nature. We've established in the past that a villain who feels remorseful about themselves at some point but denies a Heel Realization and continues their monstrous behaviors and actions anyway can still qualify. And his backstory comes off as flimsy to me because 1: it's only one way of remembering a Multiple-Choice Past and 2: like with Lotso's Freudian Excuse, Batman confronts Joker with the fallacy of it - how one bad day typically doesn't drive people to madness or at least to Joker's extent, and that it was just him choosing to be rotten this whole time because he wanted to victimize others rather than continue to feel victimized by life's circumstances.
However, the film version is a total standalone, taken out of continuity where Joker would go on doing worse evil afterwards and totally invalidate any sympathy he had there, so I'd say for this Joker. The one from the original comic, however, will always be a for me.
edited 7th Aug '16 10:39:27 PM by ANewMan
Lighty, you have a fair point.
The Unknown
TKJ Joker
A quick question. The following Complete Monster entry was added to the Warhammer: Age of Sigmar YMMV page:
- Complete Monster: Lascillion, a Slaaneshi Chaos Lord. He hedonistically enjoys torture, is a Combat Sadomasochist (when he first encounters the Stormcast Eternals he wonders how it would feel to be injured by them in a fight) and he is implied to be an Extreme Omnisexual; in one scene he's redressing while standing over the corpse of a Beastman he killed because it refused to submit to him. Then looks up at the flayed corpse of another victim reflecting that he's had so many victims details about them aren't worth remembering. He also stated that he couldn't identify the victim's gender or age before remembering that to him those details don't matter. The goal of his personal mission was to capture Neferata for himself, implying he didn't mind that she was a vampire
Was this a result of this thread? I ask because: 1-this is pretty much par for the course for high level Slaanesh worshipers; 2- The troper who added it was a new account so probably doesn't know the procedure for this sort of thing.
Knowledge is Power, Guard it Well
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I don't recall it having been discussed.
As for Animated!Killing Joke!Joker: I haven't seen it, but assuming it's close enough to the comic (which I HAVE read),
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
"Re Damien: I could've sworn he was discussed a while ago and voted to be cut. Something involving his Freudian excuse and motivation I thought."
Actually looking in the the thread, there's some discussion starting here (a few more posts appear a few pages later).
I will say that the discussion from back then also overstates Pandora. Even back then, the worst of her crimes were less than Damien's, she already had a redeeming value [helping Nanase save Ellen's life] and literally the last month of so of the comic has been dedicated to showing that she has other redeeming values [being in love to the extent of starting a family, wanting to help her family, being willing to fix mistakes that she made].
I do think the Offscreen Villainy complaint about Damien is reasonable, and it's possible that I've understated that issue.
edited 8th Aug '16 2:06:38 AM by thok
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Joker. Even if he didn't have a sympathetic backstory, he wounds one person, kills a couple people, and tries to drive one person insane. That's not really all that high on the heinous bar anyway.
Lord of Hell
Echoing 's thoughts on Killing Joke Joker.
Lizzid people!
TKJ!Joker (Hamill's awesome as the Joker per usual).
edited 8th Aug '16 6:04:53 AM by AustinDR
I just find out that Maupassant's story about the judge has been adapted into a CBS Radio Mystery Theater radio drama.
http://www.cbsrmt.com/episode-62-the-diary-of-a-madman.html
If I have time, i'll check out if the guy counts in the adaptation as well.
edited 8th Aug '16 6:30:11 AM by Silverblade2
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
x10: Who wants to fight Hercules you ask? Kratos seemed to do a good job at it ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
edited 8th Aug '16 7:18:06 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Planeswalker
Hey, in the Webcomics section, is there a reason Jack Noir from Homestuck (not Bec Noir, I can understand why he might not be included) isn't on the page? I seem to recall he was included in the past.
edited 8th Aug '16 8:43:26 AM by PhiSat
Oissu!
The Killing Joke Joker for being sympathetic for once.
