Here is my write up for Mr Veils. It doesn't have any pot holes since I know ACW will go crazy with that anyway.

Fallen London: While the Masters of the Bazaar are well known for their antipathy towards the people of London and for being amoral by human standards, most cannot truly be called evil. The same, though, cannot be said for Mr Veils, more commonly known to the citizens of London as the monstrous Vake. Presiding over the trade in cloth as his primary duty, Mr Veils spends his free time hunting victims for sport as the Vake. His modus operandi is to spike a drink known as Black Wings Absinthe with his blood and haunt the nightmares of his victims before hunting them down in the waking world. Particularly unlucky victims will consume a version spiked with prisoner's honey thereby transporting them physically into the nightmare. In a pitch black abyss, the Vake taunts and torment his victims before tearing them to pieces. Ultimately, his greatest evil was masterminding the betrayal of fellow Master Mr Candles. Mr Candles, who loved the Second City, was stabbed repeatedly by the other Masters and fed to Priest-Kings of what would soon become the Third City. Mr Veils delivered the final blow when he drowned Mr Candles in the tears of the Bazaar and dissolved him in purest sorrow causing his vengeful disembodied spirit to become Mr Eaten. Down in the Neath where law itself breaks down, Mr Veils proves their will always be monsters in the deep darkness where the Earth hides its greatest shames.

edited 18th Jun '16 9:11:33 PM by LoreDeluxe

• Wizards of the Demon Sword: Lord Khoura is an Evil Sorcerer who seeks the Blade of Aktar so he can plunge the world into darkness. To do this, he kidnaps the Blade's keeper and takes the Blade. In his attempts to figure out how to access the power, he sacrifices at least three virgins. He has Melina, the keeper's daughter, kidnapped in order to force one of them to reveal the secret, and sends her to his torture wall when they refuse so the keeper can hear his daughter's screams.. At the torture wall, Khoura makes Melina watch him burn another woman with a hot knife, and threatens to do unbelievable torture to her should she refuse. When the heroes invade his castle to rescue his captives, he manages to slay Damon before being taken down.

New proposal, from He Knows You're Alone.

Who's the candidate?

Ray Carlton, a Serial Killer who slashes brides-to-be soon before their weddings.

What does he do?

We first see Ray when two friends are going to a slasher within the slasher. The killer stalks one of the women, and stabs her In the Back.

Len Gamble is called to the scene of the crime, which leads to a flashback of Ray's first kill: Marvin's fiance, whom he stabs in the stomach for rejecting him.

Soon after Amy, whom Ray has started stalking, does the fitting for her dress, Ray kills Ralph, her tailor. Len learns about the murder, and goes to investigate. This prompts some exposition dialogue that indicates that Ray has been killing for three years.

A couple are doing some roleplay, when Ray cuts the power. The guy goes to investigate, and Ray kills the girl. He then said for the guy to return, and kills him too.

Ray decides to make his final move, and breaks into Amy's house. Amy isn't there at the moment, but her roommate Nancy is. Ray decapitates Nancy and puts her head in the fish tank. Amy returns home, and Ray gives chase. This leads them to the local morgue, where the final showdown begins. Gamble arrives and shoots Ray in the shoulder, but this doesn't stop him from stabbing Gamble in the heart. Eventually, Ray is arrested.

Heinousness?

As the Big Bad, he's the worst character.

Mitigating factors?

Nope. In all honesty, he's not very well-characterized. However, his murder spree being motivated by one rejection indicates extreme pettiness, and the aforementioned Decapitation Presentation indicates a form of sadism.

'Verdict?:

edited 18th Jun '16 11:50:38 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

So I have two potential candidates for Detective Conan. As the work itself is in the genre of detective mystery, there will be spoilers ahead.

Both candidates are one-off characters. The first one is from the first Non-Serial Movie, The Time-Bombed Skyscraper, the second one is from Manga Case #107 and Anime Episode 304: The Trembling Police Headquarters: 12 Million Hostages, a 2-hour special episode.

The two CM candidates I will be posting below are similar in their scale of crime and type of crime (though there is a difference in motive), so I am personally not quite sure on which of them counts (thanks to the heinousness rule). You may consider either of them, both of them, or even neither of them, to be a CM in the end.

Also note that I only watched the anime version, and the Chinese dub on top of that, so there might be some minor differences between the original version and the Chinese version. This is largely a non-issue because the Chinese dubs tend to make very little modifications (unless your anime is called Neon Genesis Evangelion), but it is worth mentioning.

Since Detective Conan ran for so long, the heinousness issue is very much a problem since it is impractical to check everything. These two characters are more reliable because they are featured in longer works, so their crimes are more numerous and less likely to be topped by other characters in standard episodes.

I will be using original Japanese names because it's simpler.

With all the stuff out of the way, let us begin. Spoilers ahead.

Candidate One

Who is this character?

Our character is Teiji Moriya, a famed architect and serial bomber, Big Bad of the first Non-Serial Movie, The Time-Bombed Skyscraper.

Who had they done?

Moriya has a mad obsession over symmetry. A completely crazy obsession. His older creations are often non-symmetrical due to several outside factors (such as government budgets).

The story is driven by Moriya's wishes to wipe his old, "shamefully" asymmetrical creations from the face of the earth. (yes, I know, it sounds a bit Narm, but let's just accept that Moriya is completely and utterly crazy)

At the start of the story, Moriya had committed burned down four asymmetrical mansions he designed. He decided to up the scale and also take revenge on Shinichi Kudo, a teenage detective (who had been shrunk to a child's size, but the public is not aware of that) who foiled his plans with creating a symmetrical city when the city mayor was forced to step down when Shinichi investigated into a car accident that killed a girl and proven that the city mayor was behind the wheel in the accident.

Moriya stole a large quantity of bomb-making chemicals and created lots of plastic explosives. He challenged Shinichi (unaware that he is the child-sized Conan Edogawa now) to a cat-and-mouse game with bombs by calling him and giving him cryptic hints to his next bomb locations.

In a park, he gave the Detective Boys (a group of children doing detective work, somewhat associated with Shinichi thought I am not sure) a toy plane filled with plastic explosives to play with. Conan arrived just in time, destroyed the plane and causing it to explode midair, preventing any casualties.

He then places a bomb in an urban center (in a cat box for stray cats, to be taken away by an unaware old lady), which Conan also managed to take away to a river side, where it exploded without causing any deaths, but injured Conan.

Moriya then places five bombs on a loop train track fitted with a special sunlight-detecting device, so that they will trigger either when the trains on the loop track slow down too much or when the sun falls. The five bombs caused quite a ruckus in the public transportation, but the police ended up successfully preventing deaths when they diverted the train on the loop track to other tracks, after Conan realized the nature of the bombs. (Moriya demanded police to speed up and not slow down the trains, so the police was led on the wrong track of thinking that changing tracks is not an option, No Pun Intended.)

After recovering, Conan and the police pieced together the bits of evidence and concluded that Moriya is the bomber. They entered Moriya's house, and after a bit of explaining, Moriya pulled out a detonator to blow up the house and take everyone in it with him, unaware that Conan had already found his detonator and deactivated it.

After being arrested, Moriya reveals his last trick - to blow up the asymmetrical skyscraper he designed. He planted a large amount of bombs in the skyscraper, the largest of which will explode at three minutes past midnight, which Ran Mouri, the daughter of Kogoro Mouri, a detective involved in the case and the girlfriend of Shinichi, was in at the time. He taunts how he left three special minutes after midnight for Shinichi to enjoy (it is Shinichi's birthday after midnight)

At around midnight, the first bombs explode and sealed off the emergency exits in the skyscraper, trapping Ran and others - it was a public center with a mall, mind you - in it. Moriya continues to taunt Kogoro and Shinichi about Ran's upcoming death.

Wire Dilemma later, bomb disarmed.

Are they heinous by the standards of the story?

By general standards, quite heinous. Most Detective Conan criminals tend to involve only one murder. Moriya, however, involved serial bombing, with targets that would clearly cause loads of casualties, including children. For bonus points, he taunted Kogoro and Shinichi about Ran's upcoming death.

He is easily one of the nastier Villain of the Week of the work, and the only character I could think that could compare to him is Candidate Two, which I've included below for you to compare.

Any mitigating factors?

Now, Detective Conan had a lot of Asshole Victims and Sympathetic Murderers, and every single villain WILL be explaining why are they committing the crimes. Moriya's excuse, saying that he wishes to destroy his past asymmetrical works, while almost Narm-inducing, was not a sympathetic one at all, and if taken seriously only shows that Moriya is a nutjob who not only took his obsession to symmetry to great heights, but also had a frosting of mass-killing violence on top of that.

He does mention that he had a family at one point, and it seemed reasonably functional. However, it was also heavily implied (but never confirmed) that Moriya burned down his parents' house and killed his parents, with descriptions involving something along the lines of "Moriya became far more famous after the death of his talented architect father". So who knows. If he did love his parents (or anyone), then it isn't really shown. Most of the time he is depicted as entirely self-serving.

Conclusion?

Neutral. (I prefer to stay neutral on all my CM candidates unless I was seriously disgusted by the character, which is rare)

Interesting trivia: I've read from somewhere that Teiji Moriya is named after Moriarty. In East Asian naming order, Moriya Teiji has Moriya Teiji, which sounds reasonably similar to how Moriarty is pronounced in Japanese.

Candidate Two

Who is this character?

Our character is the unnamed bomber and Big Bad of Manga Case #107 and Anime Episode 304: The Trembling Police Headquarters: 12 Million Hostages.

Who had they done?

Seven years ago in the past, the bomber was involved in a case with another criminal to extort lots of money from the Tokyo police by threatening to blow up two apartment buildings.

The two said that they will deactivate the time bombs when their demands were met. The police managed to disarm one of the two bombs, but the other one was too tough for them, so they had to give in to their demands and pay them.

After getting their money, the two deactivated the second bomb. However, news reporting errors made the two believe that the second bomb was not stopped. The accomplice's conscience kicked in and left their car to call the police and tell them how to disarm the bomb. The police used the phone call to track him down and chase him, which ended in his accidental death.

In contrast, the bomber said that he doesn't care that the bomb had not been stopped, and only cared about the money. After his accomplice is killed, the bomber vowed revenge on the police, thinking that they are manipulating his accomplice's conscience to get him. He started off by actually reactivating the second bomb, killing the police bomb technician, Kenji Hagiwara.

Four years later (that is three years before present), the bomber planted two sets of bombs in two sites. One is a smaller set in a Ferris wheel, and the other one is a larger set in a hospital. He reveals the location of the Ferris wheel bomb in a cryptic bomb threat message, just to get the police involved in his game of revenge.

Jinpei Matsuda, the One-Scene Wonder fellow of Kenji Hagiwara, went into the Ferris wheel to try to solve the situation, trying to finish Kenji's unfinished business. It was here that Jinpei discovered a dilemma created by the bomber, which I dub the "3 second dilemma". The bomber will be revealing the location of the second set of bombs on the screen of the Ferris wheel bomb 3 seconds before it explodes.

To prevent the bigger set of bombs from exploding, Jinpei sacrificed himself to text the location of the second set of bombs to fellow police and love interest Miwako Sato, before dying from the explosion. The second set of bombs was successfully disarmed.

Three years after that (the current day), the bomber returned once again with bomb threats. He starts off with a fake bomb threat in a restaurant, but then plants a real bomb on the police car when the police was searching the restaurant, attached with another cryptic message about a more serious bomb threat. The bomb explodes and critically injures the investigator driving it, but the cryptic message was recovered. The cryptic bomb threat first points to a Red Herring, then to the true location, the Tokyo Tower.

Initial explosions in the Tokyo Tower stopped the elevators and trapped a girl in the elevator. The bomber shows nothing but amusement at the police's failings. To rescue the girl and disarm the bomb, Conan and another police detective (Wataru Takagi) enters the elevator to rescue the girl, but another bomb traps them inside the elevator with the last, biggest bomb beside them.

After receiving instructions from the police, Conan begins to disarm the last bomb. Here, the 3 second dilemma appears again. A larger set of bombs is planted elsewhere in Tokyo, and its location will only be revealed at the last 3 seconds before the bomb explodes.

Conan waited for only half of the message to appear before fully disarming the bomb, then used his skills to deduce that the location is Teitan High School (which is conveniently Ran's high school, with lots of students currently taking an exam). The police disarmed the bomb in the high school and cornered the bomber nearby, who was expecting an explosion in the school.

Are they heinous by the standards of the story?

Like Candidate One, he is also very heinous by the series standards, being a serial bomber. The targets he bombed are also high-density areas and he doesn't care that children will be killed.

Once again, he is comparable to Candidate One. So compare and contrast.

Any mitigating factors?

His excuse was... shoddy and questionable, to say the least. It was pointed out by one of the Detective Boys that taking revenge for justified police actions was not a good excuse. Furthermore, he was a criminal from the very start, and didn't start off as a normal person and got turned into one like many other murderers in the series.

When he is finally cornered, he tries to explain himself by saying that there is a little kid in his brain telling him to kill all the police, further pointing to him being just a straight up psychopath. Bonus points for placing a bug on the bomb and amusing himself by listening to the people getting all nervous over the bomb.

Conclusion?

Neutral (see conclusion to Candidate One)

Trivia: He never actually took 12 million hostages. It was metaphorically referring to the city of Tokyo (with its 12 million population) being under his serial bombing threat.

Feel free to ask any questions about either of them. I will try my best to answer.

edited 19th Jun '16 12:47:31 AM by Wuz

Surprised Detective Conan hasn't been talked about much in length until now. Yes to both of them.

edited 19th Jun '16 12:26:57 AM by Scraggle

unnamed bomber

Unsure on Moriya, he seems genuinely loony toons in a potentially agency-impairing way.

I was thinking, does anyone want to discuss Sonia from Fire Emblem Elibe?

From what I remember she was cut because she was a minion of Nergal, who was a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, but I'd argue she has enough independence, and moral agency to count.

She was cut for comparative heinousness.

Yes to the bombers, Soraya, Otto von Doom, the Kolchak examples and Mr. Veils, btw...

Duck...I'm gonna be honest about this...I kind of think you should move off from proposing terrible B-movie bad guys here. This guy just sounds like a generic slasher bad guy.

to Ray. Doesn't sound really generic to me at all.

Not that it matters if it's a B-Movie or not. All that matters is if the character can logically be a CM under the conditions of the actual work(like it not being pure grimdark, a ron the death eater moment, or being things like a snuff film, a porn film, etc. There are standards, but "not being high quality" is not one of them. That's just being silly at this point), and still hits the basic heinous factor. Which in many cases do.

'Yes' to Von Doom, Khoura, Mr. Veils, Ray Carlton, and the Conan bombers.

Anywho, on the subject of Kolchak again, it seems that Palmer is a unanimous keeper, and Jack, though divisive, still leans in favor of keep (10 Yes to 5 No), so if nothing changes, I'll get them written up soon.

But, before that, I have one last candidate from Kolchak.

Who is she?

Helen Surtees is the main villain of the episode The Youth Killer.

Presently, she is the founder of the online dating service Max Match. Made only for people under the age of 30, Helen uses it to find "perfect specimens", people who are physically perfect, to use in her.....beauty endeavors.

What has she done?

Giving out special rings to every "perfect" person she finds through Max Match, Helen uses the rings, along with some magic, to drain the youth from the ringwearers, rapidly aging them up to 100 years old. The victims inevitably die soon after this process, whether from old age, heart attacks, or the like.

Shown doing this to 3 people throughout the episode, Helen is soon revealed to be Helen of Troy, an ancient demigoddess who made a deal with ancient gods to give her eternal life in exchange for her supplying only perfect victims to be sacrificed to them through the age draining process, and has been performing this lifedraining ritual for hundreds of years. She is shown to have to lifedrain a person at least once a week.

When Kolchak investigates and accidentally gets one of Helen's rings on his finger, which leads him to try to smash the room in which she prays to the gods.

Kolchak's efforts were unneeded, however, as one of Helen's latest victims had a glass eye, unknown to her, and as such, the victim was not a perfect specimen, leading the now-wrathful gods to turn Helen to stone.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

None. She wants to stay young and alive just because she likes being young and alive, and she actually enjoys watching her victims die, so yeah.

Heinousness?

Her bodycount is never even attempted to be stated, but the fact is, Helen is centuries (If not thousands of years) old, and is shown to have to drain an innocent's life at least once a week, or she herself starts rapidly aging. Doing the math, that's.....alot of victims, even more than the aforementioned Jack the Ripper.

1 per week + 52 weeks per year × Hundreds, if not thousands, of years = A crapton of victims.

Final Verdict?

I'd say 'Yes'. She's got no excuse or disqualifying features, and her crimes are centuries long, and though, again, the number is never said, her bodycount has to be in the hundreds, so yeah, I think she counts.

edited 19th Jun '16 1:11:14 AM by Ravok

to Helen Surtees and Ray Carlton

Even if it were only 200 years, it would be 10400 victims.

Easy.

To Helen.

So... on the YMMV page for the documentary General Idi Amin Dada: A Self-Portrait, we have a CM entry for Idi Amin. There are some problems here (I'm sure), at the very least, the entry did not go through this thread. Beyond that there might be some problems about YMMVs for Documentaries (do they count as real life or no?).

I'm just throwing this out. I have no idea what should I do.

Alright, Detective Conan:

• Moriya assuming he's not TOO batshit insane to count.
• Candidate 2, assmuming he too is sane AND that he didn't want revenge on the police because he cared about his partner. Incidentally, "Conan waited for only half of the message to appear before fully disarming the bomb"...so, like, 3 seconds before it exploded?

Ray Carlton too, as long as that film's not just plotless garbage. Helen as well. As for , I'd say cut myself.

edited 19th Jun '16 4:41:24 AM by ACW

Moriya and the Bomber.

Lee

Helen, unnamed bomber, Moriya and Ray

Helen, Carlton, Moriya, Unnamed bomber.

Lee

Helen, Carlton, Moriya, Unnamed bomber.

There still might be some suspicions over the Detective Conan CM nominees, but with the support I am seeing I will be posting their write-ups. I've completely spoiled out Candidate One because he is a spoiler character after all. Candidate Two is not spoiled because his identity is never hidden.

I had already posted them to the drafts page.

• Detective Conan:
  • From Non-Serial Movie 1: The Time-Bombed Skyscraper: Teiji Moriya is an architect with a violent obsession of symmetry. Unsatisfied with his past asymmetrical works, Moriya plans to destroy them in disproportionately violent ways while taking revenge on Shinichi, who had unintentionally wronged him in the past. Starting by burning down four of his past works, he stole bomb-making materials and created plastic explosives to play a game of cat-and-mouse with Shinichi and the Tokyo police. Moriya bombed a park with children in it, a public square, and the Tokyo railway, while sending a mad demand that the bombs will explode if the trains slow down. His largest crime by far is destroying his "ultimate disgrace", an asymmetrical skyscraper and a major city center. Looking to cause even more deaths, he destroyed the exits first, trapping Ran underneath the rubble with the largest bomb, and taunts Shinichi about Ran's situation. Even after being arrested, he continues to taunt Kogoro and Shinichi about Ran's upcoming death in the rubbles of the skyscraper.
  • From Manga Case #107, Anime Episode 304: The Trembling Police Headquarters: 12 Million Hostages: The unnamed bomber is the Big Bad of this story. At the start of the story, he and another criminal used bomb threats in two apartment buildings to extort money from the police. Despite initially planning to not detonate the bomb and cause casualties, when the two were misinformed into thinking that the bomb really might explode, the bomber ignored it and said that they didn't need to care about lives when they've got money. When his accomplice (who had a conscience) accidentally died from police chase when trying to stop the bombs from exploding, the bomber, using revenge as an excuse, reactivated the second undisarmed bomb, killing the police bomb technicians beside it. Four years later, he planted two sets of bombs, one at a Ferris wheel and a larger one at a hospital, and used a sadistic dilemma to force the police into sacrificing one of their own to find the location of the larger one. Three years after that, he bombed investigator Shiratori's car, critically injuring Shiratori and sending another bomb threat about two more sets of bombs, one at the Tokyo Tower and a larger one at a high school, where students are taking an exam, once again aiming to use his dilemma to humiliate the police. The bomber detonated the bombs inside the Tokyo Tower despite being aware of children inside it, showing nothing but amusement from the police's troubles. Ultimately, it is shown that he is nothing more than just a unrepentant psychopath looking to cause violence, and was never motivated by revenge.

edited 19th Jun '16 6:38:57 AM by Wuz

I'll do those 2 next week. Did you see my comments/questions?

edited 19th Jun '16 7:04:08 AM by ACW

@Wuz

If it's a documentary, than no, the man can't qualify.

I saw the comments. I thought that Moriya was reasonably sane and not too Narm inducing to be a comedy character instead of a serious villain. The way Detective Conan depicts these somewhat Narmful villains basically paints them as psychos with extreme obsessions, and Detective Conan has a great deal of them, e.g. a guy killing others because some guy wrote a bad fan-fiction about Sherlock Holmes.

I thought that the unnamed bomber never really cared for his accomplice, since when cornered in the end, his excuse was surprisingly not a rant about the problems of the police system, but saying how there is a little kid in his brain wanting to kill everyone so its not him who's doing the killings

Ahem. Also, the way Conan simultaneously read half of the message while defusing the bomb was achieved through dramatic cuts that made 3 seconds seem like enough time to shout a dramatic no, cut the wires off screen and make 4 characters appear on the screen very slowly. Bellisario's Maxim applies here.

I had already cut the example.

edited 19th Jun '16 7:26:36 AM by Wuz

So Moriya, but is the unnamed bomber then too looney toons?

edited 19th Jun '16 7:27:28 AM by ACW

He is taken seriously throughout the story. Surprisingly seriously and surprisingly unrepentant. In fact, the story itself is considered one of the finer works in the series, if not the finest, and I think that having a non-Narmful villain helps with that.

edited 19th Jun '16 7:33:25 AM by Wuz

Taken seriously maybe, but the fact that he says he has a kid in his brain makes me question if he's too insane to count.