Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

The reason why the Blaz Blue has such entry was because of the nature of most fans, they're easily hyped and used hyperbole a lot, thus much of Terumi/Relius' atrocities were treated like they're the best ever and used so many overhyping to the point it's gotten so big they think they need to put it on one new page.

I wonder if the same thing could be said to Moral Event Horizon. It's MUCH trimmer, but... yeah.

edited 1st Mar '12 6:10:31 AM by ChrisX

Let's see if this works for folks:

• Blaz Blue has two:
  • Hazama/Terumi is personally responsible for the Black Beast, which destroyed over 80% of the world's population. He caused Lotte Carmine to transform into Arakune For the Evulz. He regularly uses Human Resources to create and power People Of Mass Destruction. And he still finds time to punt as many puppies as he can.
  • Relius Clover killed both his wife and his daughter and turned them into gynoid killers For Science!. He also uses the same reasoning for inflicting Cold-Blooded Torture on Lambda-11, and most of the atrocities Terumi does is thanks to Relius' research, with Relius fully aware and approving of it all. In one route, he's even willing to kill an ally just for being in his way.

Looks good to me.

I wouldn't say his attempt to kill Litchi to get in his way was not a term of You Have Outlived Your Usefulness. She still remained useful to the NOL for her knowledge... Relius just plain didn't care. Nobody is to question his wonderful parenting skill.

But all around, the try out is wonderful. I'd add that everything Hazama did is For the Evulz, and there needs to be his 'Lies/Despair' Motive Rant to put a good reason on why he's a Complete Monster. Let's see how I change it up:

• Hazama/Terumi is personally responsible for the Black Beast, which destroyed over 80% of the world's population. He caused Lotte Carmine to transform into Arakune FortheEvulz. He regularly uses Human Resources to create and power People Of Mass Destruction. And he still finds time to punt as many puppies as he can. And he does all that also For the Evulz. His Motive Rant includes plunging the world into despair, the only thing he believed to be the ultimate truth. With 'inflicting despair' to be a goal, nothing else describe him save an utter Complete Monster. And a gigantic Troll

For a suggestion, though, you shouldn't just list their atrocities, but also their personality which makes them a Complete Monster. Lack of Empathy, For the Evulz, Troll, Manipulative Bastard, etc... Apologies for the above poster, but those were merely telling their atrocities, rather than why for base personality they're a Complete Monster.

And if one wants to list their atrocities, there's also the Hot Tip option, just make sure they're also short and to the point.

edited 2nd Mar '12 5:26:32 AM by ChrisX

Fair enough, but ditch the Arson, murder and Jaywalking bit at the end. It makes it too jokey and that started to lead to the trope decay.

Parsing the double negative, you're saying that his attempt to kill Litchi was You Have Outlived Your Usefulness? I couldn't find any better trope to describe that... and it isn't a question of whether she would still be useful, just whether he felt she would be (and if he felt that, despite her knowledge, she'd be in his way, then it qualifies... and questioning his actions would count).

As for Terumi, I already put in For the Evulz and noted his tendency to Kick the Dog whenever possible. We don't need Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking added on top of that, and we don't need to cite For the Evulz twice.

edited 2nd Mar '12 5:12:10 AM by 32_Footsteps

Fair enough on Relius. On Terumi, though, the first For the Evulz you said imply that only his treatment to Lotte WAS For the Evulz, the rest isn't. So... let's just say it's better to put the For the Evulz part on the last part, to let it be known that everything he does are basically For the Evulz. Let's see...

• Hazama/Terumi Yuuki is the first one, an extremely arrogant and sadistic spirit 'thing' who revels in the suffering on other people with extreme glee, and enjoys Trolling way beyond his necessity to exist (he needed to be hated in order to exist). Amongst his laundry list of puppy-punting include personally responsible for the Black Beast, which destroyed over 80% of the world's population, causing Lotte Carmine to transform into Arakune, regularly uses Human Resources to create and power People Of Mass Destruction, mind raping other people, and... listing all of them would be a chore. His Motive Rant includes plunging the world into despair, the only thing he believed to be the ultimate truth. With 'inflicting despair' to be a goal, and especially when you consider that all of the above, he does For the Evulz, nothing else describe him save an utter Complete Monster.
• Relius Clover is an unabashed Mad Scientist, Abusive Father per excellence who views other humans as nothing more but his experiment subjects and would experiment on them with utter glee. He killed both his wife and his daughter and turned them into gynoid killers For Science! and rightfully earned the hatred of his son Carl. He also uses the same reasoning for inflicting Cold-Blooded Torture on Lambda-11, and most of the atrocities Terumi does is thanks to Relius' research, with Relius fully aware and approving of it all. In one route, he's even willing to kill an ally just for being in his way.

How about it? Added some of their base personalities to justify how much morally bankrupt they are. (As well as the main aspects of Relius, being Mad Scientist and Abusive Parents.

edited 2nd Mar '12 5:28:55 AM by ChrisX

I have to say that Terumi's habit of being a Troll shouldn't be included. For one, that's wrapped up in the Kick the Dog mention. For another, we don't need any examples of Evil Is Petty on this. We're trying to hit the highlights of why he's evil, and acting like a Jerkass to everyone doesn't rise to the occasion. Plus, there's enough there that we don't need to bloat a description of his massive evil with less evil. The point isn't to give the laundry list; we just want to hit the highlights that qualify them for this trope.

• Blaz Blue has two:
  • Hazama/Terumi Yuuki is the first one, an extremely arrogant and sadistic spirit who revels in the suffering on other people with extreme glee. Amongst his laundry list of puppy-punting include personally responsible for the Black Beast, which destroyed over 80% of the world's population, causing Lotte Carmine to transform into Arakune, regularly uses Human Resources to create and power People Of Mass Destruction, mind-raping other people, and... listing all of them would be a chore. His Motive Rant includes plunging the world into despair, the only thing he believed to be the ultimate truth. With 'inflicting despair' to be a goal, and especially when you consider that all of the above, he does For the Evulz, nothing else describe him save an utter Complete Monster.
  • Relius Clover is an unabashed Mad Scientist, Abusive Father par excellence who views other humans as nothing more but his experiment subjects, and would experiment on them with utter glee. He killed both his wife and his daughter and turned them into gynoid killers For Science! and rightfully earned the hatred of his son Carl. He also uses the same reasoning for inflicting Cold-Blooded Torture on Lambda-11, and most of the atrocities Terumi does is thanks to Relius' research, with Relius fully aware and approving of it all. In one route, he's even willing to kill an ally just for being in his way.

edited 2nd Mar '12 6:30:52 AM by 32_Footsteps

Not mentioning that he is a Troll sounds fair enough. However, I still suggest the inclusion that Terumi acts beyond his necessity to exist (That is, being hated) to be one of the factors that he is a Complete Monster... unless that was included in 'Doing everything For the Evulz'. I would just modify the beginning part into this:

"Hazama/Terumi Yuuki is the first one, an extremely arrogant and sadistic spirit who revels in the suffering on other people with extreme glee, and while he has to be hated to exist in the world, his actions go beyond that necessity into unforgivable levels and doesn't even justify what he did."

The rest is fine though. What do you say?

I do think it's unnecessary on two levels. One, his acting cruel and jerky beyond his requirements to exist is covered under both For the Evulz and Kick the Dog. Two, it's kind of implicit in being a Complete Monster that they're going to go well beyond what they need to do to survive. They might need to eat, but do they need to eat babies? Or that many in a single sitting?

Sometimes, simplicity is best. I know that my description of Terumi really only gets a snapshot of just how evil he is. But really, that snapshot alone is enough to qualify him. We need his entry to simply illustrate just why he qualifies, not give all of his qualifications.

Makes sense. Fair enough. Now all we need to do is for someone to put that in the general VG Complete Monsters.

There's topic in the FAQ section for edits on locked pages, if you think they're good enough you could ask one of the mods there, saying that it also got vetted here as well.

Think we need an edit for Complete Monster: Mass Effect.

• The Illusive Man, from the start of the game, had been painted as being morally grey. From the time he leads Shepard into a trap however things begin to go downhill:
  • At the end of the game he desperately wants to harness the Collector's technology, even with the knowledge of how horrifying it is.
  • In Overlord he is against disrupting the work of fellow monster Gavin Archer, who had forced his autistic brother to communicate with the Geth in the most horrific way imaginable, something even a Renegade Shepard wants him dead for.
  • In Mass Effect 3 The Illusive Man and Cerberus had become indoctrinated and begin waging war against the galaxy who are already trying to survive against the Reapers, even killing off characters from previous games.
  • The comics reveal that he deliberately released a brutal zombie plague to take over a space station.
  • Anything else? Oh yes, he forced Paul Greyson to undergo Reaper implanting.
  • For bonus points Martin Sheen (who played the voice and modeled the character) not only says he wouldn't trust Illusive Man, but thinks he's a horrible person. If Sheen had read half the details about him...

Did I miss anything?

edited 7th Mar '12 12:34:05 PM by tsstevens

Wait a month or two for those of us who had to wait an extra day to get the game to play through it so we can honestly dispute it.

That should actually be a rule I think; no entries for works younger than a month old. It stops spoilers and will eliminate knee-jerk reactions (not saying this one is a knee-jerk reaction, but plenty of bad examples were IE The Arkham City ones).

EDIT: That said, I would reject any attempt to bring Illusive Man onto this list. He has already had an Even Evil Has Standards moment, if the above troper is correct he is indoctrinated and thus any actions he takes in ME 3 are under More than Mind Control and discounted, the bit about the end of ME 2 doesn't count Because his arguement was that the collector base would be useful against the Reapers, making him a Well-Intentioned Extremist. To Goodwin this, the Nazi's were Complete Monsters, yet we used the results of their acts to make some of the greatest leaps forward in medicine, science, etc. Does that make us Complete Monsters? Similar deal with Overlord, and we've already established that Archer (the man running the project) can not be a Complete Monster (something which you should have checked into stevens before you judge him as a monster).

As for the Invasion Comic, he authorises an attack of Omega, which is a Wretched Hive filled with gangs, hitmen, and other unsavoury sorts. It's not like he attacked an orphanage or something.

So unless ME 3 has a massive spoiler that complete changes things, he doesn't fit in this trope, and I spent a lot of time getting that subpage cleaned so you can bet I'd fight making any additions I don't think belong there.

edited 7th Mar '12 9:58:38 PM by Shaoken

Okay then. Morinth. Let's go through the rules of Complete Monster and see if she applies.

• The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way.

Morinth is basically a space vampire, with no redeeming or positive characteristics whatsoever. She repeatedly tries to kill Shepard, For the Evulz.

• The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story.

Absolutely. Her own mother enlists Shepard's aid in killing her in cold blood. Aria, a gangster queen, is happy to point them in the right direction and there is not one character, not even The Illusive Man (who cites she is too psychotic to be a valuable resource) who believes she has any altruistic values whatsoever.

• They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes.

Well, yeah. She enjoys killing, it's like a drug for her.

Let me ask you; have you even looked through the discussion page on Mass Effect before coming here? Monrith was already discussed, but didn't make it on the list because nobody wrote a natterless and "And That's Terrible"-free entry on her.

Yes I did, and I thought it might be worth bringing up here for discussion and work on an entry. If you would like me to write up an entry for proposal I'd be happy to.

• Morinth of Mass Effect 2 is introduced as a Ardat Yakshi, who are alien space vampires. They suffer from a rare genetic disease that kills their mates, takes their powers and gives them incredible pleasure. Most Ardat Yakshi voluntary go into exile upon learning this. Not Morinth however, she takes great joy in hurting and killing others.
  • Before encountering her Shepard learns of a heartbroken mother whose daughter Morinth seduced, mind raped and murdered. She unashameably did it For the Evulz, because she enjoys the suffering she causes.
  • Morinth's mother, Samara, also reveals that when cornered she brainwashed a village to sacrifice themselves so she could escape.
  • Upon actually encountering Morinth she makes no bones about the thrill of domination and killing, before trying to kill Shepard, who if his\her renegade score is high enough can choose Morinth as an ally and have her kill her mother, which Morinth takes great pleasure in.
  • Morinth repays Shepard by trying to trick him\her into sleeping with her, knowing that it would be deadly and lying about s\he being strong enough to handle it. She even states her victims experience great pleasure, which is also a lie.

Yeah....no way I'd want something like that one the page. For starters, subpoints should be used to add on to the main arguement, but you've got the main argument in them. Next, from reading that you'd get the impression that Monrith is apart of a completely different species, not an offshoot of the Asari, so it's misleading for anyone who hasn't played the games. And more on that front; they don't go into exile; they are imprisoned. So that's two-for-two were you've failed to capture important details which would lead unfamilar tropers to draw the completely wrong picture.

Moving along, too much basis on emotional manipulation; the talk of heartbroken mothers, Monrith taking pleasure in killing her mother (who you neglect to mention is in the middle of trying to kill her and has been hunting her for centuries, so taking pleasure in removing a threat is not exclusive to Complete Monsters, players felt the same way about taking care of Saren and the Collector's. It carries through all the way to the last point which, since it's non-canon can not be put on the page. Finally, you got your tropes wrong; For the Evulz is when you do evil for the sake of evil. In this case Monrith kills people because Evil Feels Good; she gets a rush/high from the melding.

So pretty much I reject your entry in it's entirety for the above reasons.

Okay, I gotta ask. Are you a Morinth fan? You seem a bit upset about her being proposed.

You just completely side-stepped and ignored everything I just said.

I'm not upset you suggested Monrith, I'm upset that after all the hard work me and other tropers put into cleaning up that page you're coming in late to that party and making a bad entry, and when I tell you why it's a bad entry you're trying to find an excuse to ignore what I said.

I disagreed that Monrith met the "Complete" part of the entry, not because I'm a fan of her character, but because I felt that she didn't meet the standards of the trope. The other tropers disagreed and so I agreed to stop fighting putting her on the page. My objections to your example is that it's a badly-written example and it's not up to the standard we all set.

No, I'm not disregarding what you said. If you're upset about the suggestion or if you're upset that you think it's poorly written or justified, then I apologize. If she doesn't apply then she doesn't apply.

She applies, it's just a matter of making an entry that meets the standard of the others. Take the critisism as feedback and use it to refine the entry, which makes it stronger. So long as you take at least some of the feedback and use it then the next entry will be better, and get further feedback. Rinse and repeat until there's a solid entry that allievates any risk of tropers reading it and getting the wrong idea.

So feel free to keep trying, just make it fit on the standard of the page, since we're supposed to be creating the illusion that the page was written by one person instead of the dozen or two who were involved in creating it.

Okay, how about this?

• Morinth in Mass Effect 2 is certainly painted as a Complete Monster. She is an asari, part of an alien race who meld minds. This is part of their intercourse, however Morinth suffers from a rare condition that burns out her partners, killing them, and giving her immense pleasure from the act. She is essentially a space vampire, for bonus points the ship she slipped out on was the Demeter. While most with the condition had chosen exile or imprisonment she really rolls with it. Shepard finds out first hand about one of her victims when s\he finds a grieving mother, who reveals Morinth subjected her daughter to Mind Rape so she would be completely obsessed, before killing her. Through further discussion it is revealed this is how Morinth gets her kicks.
  • Samara; Morinth's mother, revealed the lengths she would go to in order to keep on killing and feeding on others: one time when cornered Morinth brainwashed a village to kill themselves to slow Samara down so she could escape.
  • In the non canon ending to Samara's quest Shepard can spare Morinth instead, allowing her to kill her own mother. Morinth makes no bones about the way she is, enjoying dominating and killing others. She claims her victims experience great pleasure, and that Shepard would be strong enough, [[Blatant Lies except her victims die in agony and especially because Shepard escaped her before she is still trying to kill Shepard, even after s\he saved her.

Few points;

• Exile is not a choice for the Ardat Yakshi, if you don't agree to go into the prison then they send the Justicars to kill you (side note, find a way to slip Ardat Yakshi into it).
• The "for bonus points" bit shouldn't be in the main entry; for that use that thing where the text is hidden until you hit the * to show it.
• The part about the mother grieving is just emotionally manipulating people while being irrelevant. Specifiy the acts that happened to the victim while leaving the mother out of it; Monrith doesn't know or care about her, so including it detracts from the article.
• Specify that the above acts are Monrith's MO and that she has a long history and line of victims.
• The bit about the villagers can go onto the end of the main point. Subpoints generally shouldn't be used that way
• The last bit you need to cut down on; the non-canon part isn't that Shep chose to spare Monrith, it was that he/she took her up on her offer to meld (since obvious they survive until ME 3). Just keep it short and sweet, something like;
  • To top it all off, if Shepard choses Monrith over her mother and both of them survive the suicide mission, Monrith tries to get Shepard to meld with her, despite knowing that it will kill him/her and that he/she is the galaxy best hope to stop the Reapers.

• Morinth in Mass Effect 2 is certainly painted as a Complete Monster. She is an asari, part of an alien race who meld minds. This is part of their intercourse, however Morinth suffers from a rare condition that burns out her partners, killing them, and giving her immense pleasure from the act. She is essentially a space vampire, or Ardat Yakhi, a term used for asari who kill others while melding and gain pleasure from it. The ship she slipped out on was even named the Demeter. While most with the condition are imprisoned she refuses to accept responsibility for what she is. Instead she really rolls with it and evades Justicars (asari warrior monks) so she can continue to kill for pleasure. Samara; Morinth's mother, revealed the lengths she would go to in order to keep on killing and feeding on others: one time when cornered Morinth brainwashed a village to kill themselves to slow Samara down so she could escape.
  • Shepard finds out first hand about one of her victims when gang leader Aria readily points Shepard to her latest victim, Nef. A girl Morinth seduced, subjected to Mind Rape so she would be completely obsessed, before killing her. Through further discussion it is revealed this is how Morinth gets her kicks, Nef being simply the latest in a long list of victims, and Morinth's treatment of her pretty much her modus operandi.
  • Shepard can spare Morinth instead, allowing her to kill her own mother. Morinth makes no bones about the way she is, enjoying dominating and killing others.
  • After killing the Collectors, Morinth will try to pursue Shepard. Non canon, Shepard can be convinced by Morinth to meld with her. However Morinth is lying about Shepard being strong enough or her victims experiencing great pleasure, killing Shepard in agony and killing the galaxy's last best chance against the Reapers.

edited 9th Mar '12 4:07:28 AM by tsstevens