During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
skeletor
What about that Evil Poacher guy? Did you decide against him.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Skeletor
Fanfiction proponent
Welcome back, Skeletor.
I know we still got about 12 hours, but anybody mind if I commence the Orphan: First Kill discussion now?
Yes to Skeletor. Looking forward to Hordak (who's voiced by Kevin Comroy)
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Skeletor.
I'm fine either way with that addition to Bloodstone Emperor.
Future: Go for it.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Alright. Time to discuss Orphan: First Kill. Tricia Albright doesn't count because not only is she got heinous enough, but because she loves her family (at least her children), Gunnar Albright despite being a nasty little shit is not heinous enough and while Esther Albright-Coleman/Leena Klammer does rack up some more kills to her rap sheet, she gets redeeming qualities that make it all for not in the end.
Before I commence with the cut proposal, her entry from Orphan for reference:
- Complete Monster: Esther is adopted by the Coleman family after their newest child is stillborn. Esther pushes a bully off a slide causing her to break her ankle, tries to play Russian Roulette with the young daughter Max, kills a nun who is suspicious of her, threatens to castrate the family's son Daniel if he tells anyone about what he saw, reads a page describing how the mother Kate's latest child was stillborn to her out loud (and presents Kate with the stillborn kid's dedication bouquet as a "gift"), and tries to cause a rift in Kate's marriage with John. When Daniel attempts to retrieve evidence proving Esther killed the nun, Esther sets the place on fire to try and kill him, and later tries to smother him at the hospital. It's later revealed that Esther is a dwarf posing as a child, is really named Leena Klammer, and killed two previous families that adopted her after failing to seduce the father, and was planning to kill the rest of the family to have John to herself. When John refuses her advances, she kills him and attempts to kill Max when she sees this. When Kate and Esther fall into a frozen lake and Kate manages to pull herself out, Esther begs Kate to save her yet has a knife behind her back clearly intending to murder Kate if she decided to rescue her.
Well let's get to it:
Esther/Leena likes an inmate at the asylum who she gives candy to for attacking people for her, she cares about a pet rat that dies (ate poison mother Tricia meant for her), legit is surprised—though not necessarily empathetic about it—by the fact that the Albright son Gunnar killed the real Esther by getting too rough with her (which Tricia covered up to save father Allan's feelings and to save Gunnar from legal trouble), is given empathy with how Tricia and him both treat her like a freak, makes a heartfelt—albeit bizarre—connection with the father Allan and is genuine sad when he either accidentally dies or she unintentionally kills him. Treated like a very tragic monster movie by the end of the day. I mean she didn't seem to care what happened to the real Esther before that, but given everything else, clearly the bonding with Allan as twisted as it truly is is definitely real—and dare I say it, sweet.
Then again, given how good the Colemans are for the most part, her messing with them after the Albrights is made worse and dare I say almost counteracts all this, but again, the humane stuff about her before all that can't be denied though. So yeah, Esther/Leena falls into ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to still keeping territory in the end.
Unless someone wants to argue that her moving on and being way worse with the Colemans would justify her staying as it would possibly negate those redeeming qualities, this seems unavoidable. Let us begin.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 1st 2022 at 9:04:43 AM
Based on that, I would say cut Esther as we discussed in PM.
Edited by WatTambor on Sep 1st 2022 at 7:06:16 PM
Seems like a simple cut.
Professor Gigachad
I was worried this would end up happening Cut Esther. It's not the worst I have seen at least it seems she is still treated as a horrible monster just one with some level of redeeming traits.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It's not like it's horribly done at all. Far from it. While she still does terrible things, despite them, she…somehow still manages to earn empathy in the end.
Isabelle Fuhrman at least still has her other keeper though…from the auxiliary version of a movie she wasn't in the theatrical version of. Still weird. Haha.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Sep 1st 2022 at 9:13:29 AM
Cut Esther I guess.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Skeletor
Showtime!
Cut Esther but re-add Skeletor (Weird day)
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Abstain on Skeletor.
Riley didn't cover this in their reevaluation, but there is a moment in the second episode of season four in He-Man. Randor is telling He-Man that he knows what it is like to lose family and that he won't let it happen to him, referring to Krass. And as he is saying this, we get an... unusual reaction from Skeletor. He seems somber for a moment, implying that deep down he does a measure of guilt and regret for how his relationship with Randor turned out. I don't know how mitigating this is, but I thought it was worthy bringing up and I have actually been debating with myself over the last two weeks whether Skeletor would count or not because of this moment. Because it may be a small scene, but it is still an intentional one.
Buzz
Skeletor
Cut Ester and her image on Image Links
Edited by Paperfly on Sep 1st 2022 at 9:36:34 AM
Image Pickin' Backlog
Alright I’m back and I’m here to say to Skeletor and Cut Esther
The Emperor of Evil!
to Ryuuwon and Skeletor.
Cut Esther I suppose.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Sep 1st 2022 at 12:40:32 PM
Skeletor….. Again.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Yay, we’re removing CGI Skeletor from the Former Complete Monsters list!
Noo, we’re adding Esther instead…
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Sad cut to Esther but the redeeming qualities do sound natural so it isn't too bad.
Honestly, I'm not too upset by Esther getting cut cause she did have redeeming qualities in the original script of the film anyways.
@mir I was thinking of doing Gai and Rei, but I have some concerns about them. A lot of their actions, like provoking Eiji into killing his father and wantonly rampaging through a city with Quester Robos, seem far too destructive and cruel for Magnificent Bastards. If they didn't care for each other they could easily be CMs.
Just imagine something here.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Sep 1st 2022 at 8:38:08 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes