What defines a Dragon?

Well, not necessarily. That's about menace, not rank, though the two concepts are very similar. The definition I was talking about was specifically about hierarchy in terms of organizational power structures, not necessarily the threat they pose

Though I understand that it'd be weird for The Dragon to be much more evil than the Big Bad lol... though granted it's less weird when one accounts for what Big Bad actually means as a trope... But you get what I'm saying!

Edited by WarJay77 on May 7th 2023 at 9:17:36 AM

Hang on… if a Pre-Final Boss has to be fought immediately before the final boss and isn't just “the penultimate boss even if The Very Definitely Final Dungeon happens after”, then that trope is gonna need some cleanup because I have seen some examples that are just that.

Well, per its description:

Considering that this is primarily a video game trope, I think this is more about the lack of break between two boss battles that prevent the players to do things like save the game, replenish HP, etc., which increases difficulty and frustration.

So Black Mage already posted the earliest version of the description they found, but it's also worth looking at the earliest version from the sytes.net days, as well as the oldest version the Archive has at the tvtropes.org domain (overlapping with a period where the article title lacked the definite article), both to see how the article evolved very early on as well as what examples were present. Also worth looking at the archived discussion which shows that people were raising concerns about the name pretty much from the word go (and not just the question of whether it would be mistaken for actual dragons).

Uh I think most of the site defines The Dragon as second in command of the Big Bad (we even have like a bunch of subtropes born from it).

I don't think it's really possible to change it to anything else without causing serious issues across the entire site. Like you'd be fighting an uphill battle against thousands of users which seems kinda pointless. It's what the old trs thread ruled and I Dont see what's changed to make that void ?

Eh, well, as I said I don't find that definition meaningfully different from Number Two, and it carries and inherent misunderstanding of what Big Bad is about (as a Big Bad need not even be villainous, powerful, or even a character at all, but this trope seems to contribute to the idea that a Big Bad must be a big bad threatening villain). It'd be more accurate to say they're the top follower of the main villain, but even that makes me ask... Okay, and? Again, why do we need a trope that's just "evil Number Two"? It's not always worth conforming to the decay, and that's where we are now, but is that a good definition for a trope?

Edited by WarJay77 on May 8th 2023 at 1:58:15 PM

Uh I always took it as a super trope. Meant to group a lot of the main underling tropes under (Co-Dragons, Dragon-in-Chief - Which is often the actual main villain of a work-, Dragon Their Feet, etc.).

Plus I do think this is May be under playing the fact that the main villain's right hand man often does have a major impact on the plot. From being the actual threat and personal foe for the protagonists to serving as interim villain well the main villain waits and only appears at the end.

But the "interim villain" part — being the threat before the threat — is the scrapped definition. That's the "penultimate threat" aspect that no longer holds true, so what we're left with is "Main Villain's Main Follower" in general. And yeah, it's a super trope, but I'm simply not sure the main trope has any real meaning in its current state.

Granted, the "penultimate threat" stuff was problematic too. I get that. But at least it did provide a type of plot and a build up to the main antagonist, which is no longer around (unless we count Sorting Algorithm of Evil, but that's about menace and doesn't imply the characters are even related).

Edited by WarJay77 on May 8th 2023 at 2:12:42 PM

At the moment it is focused on villains second in command, which is Number Two but more specific. It's also typically not applicable in most examples, as it assumes if the villain is out of commission they are clearly next in charge of the organization.

The much stronger definition leans into more of an attack dog angle, a trusted or respected associate who represents the villain as a threat before the villain is confronted at the end, which is where the penultimate threat. That makes ALL the snowclones make some sense: Dragon Their Feet is when the character is defeated AFTER the villain is disposed of, Dragon with an Agenda is when their plans don't align peefectly with the villain, Dragon-in-Chief is when on paper they are the muscle but are the only real threat in the story, etc.

While Sorting Algorithm of Evil can apply to an individual villain group, it's typically more about Serial Escalation where the next villain HAS to be stronger and a greater threat than the one before, calling into question why they didn't show up earlier when the hero had no chance at catching up in time.

On the Campbellian Dragon,

It seems that "Dragon Battle" is another way to say "Belly of the Whale", whatever that means in Campbellianism...

If I'm brave enough (and bored enough) I'll probably try and do a Wick Check just... just to see what the usage is really like. It won't be a misuse thing, just a usage check in general.

I'd need 147 wicks at least. Probably round up to 148 just because I find even numbers easier to keep track of. Ooh boy.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 11th 2023 at 12:35:36 PM

Well, Can't Refuse the Call Anymore used to be called "Belly of the Whale" but it's in TRS now because its new name is horribly unindicative...

Edited by MorganWick on May 12th 2023 at 6:43:04 AM

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Heroesjourney.svg lists it in the summary.

This webpage has the actual image: http://michaelbryson.net/teaching/csun/hero_patterns.html

campbell diagram◊

Edited by Malady on May 12th 2023 at 8:02:09 AM

Curious, is it worth bringing up the confusion I've seen regarding The Heavy versus Big Bad here as well? It clearly has a lot of overlap in the issues being discussed, but it might expand the topic too much.

The Dragon Wick Check for anyone who wants to start it.

I still need to finish my wick check for The Resolution Will Not Be Televised, so I can't really do anything with it at the moment.

We've actually been discussing those right here. Which, I mean, you know because you were part of the discussion

I feel like Big Bad, at least, is too different from The Dragon to really be worth discussing here. Because their only relation is, technically, in that The Dragon is the Big Bad's Number Two, and that does rely on the Big Bad being evil and present and in control at all... but otherwise, The Dragon is already rather complex and I don't think we should bog it down with trying to get into the nitty gritty of the other tropes.

I didn't know The Heavy, specifically, had come up in that thread - the main reason I'm bringing it up now in this one is because I was just randomly reading the Video Games subpage for it earlier today and noticed 1) an extensive amount of confusion between it and Big Bad and 2) that what it's at least supposed to be does sound a lot like what The Dragon might be trying to be as well to some extent, especially in the "it was built around Darth Vader" argument that's been made.

Edited by nrjxll on May 12th 2023 at 12:03:24 PM

I mean, I'm definitely gonna be doing the wick check and if that usage comes up it'll be recorded. But that's misuse of The Dragon in that case, not really an issue with Big Bad / The Heavy per say.

Truth is both The Heavy and Big Bad originated from different areas and got adopted into TV Tropes, which may not perfectly align with their intended format.

The Heavy I believe originated in the theater and was basically an antagonist with the most lines, not necessarily THE villain but someone pushing the conflict of the story and thus a "weightier" part. Big Bad came from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and was the Arc Villain that surmised the arc of the season and had to be defeated at the end (it really surprised me when someone insisted a Big Bad can't be an Arc Villain and had to be the biggest enemy of the franchise, seeming oblivious to where it came from).

It seems a lot of conflicts are coming from a problem with making tropes universally applicable, being stretched past their intended use. But sort of inevitable, otherwise we would be tripling the tropes by separating movie, tv show and literature "primary villain" concepts.

Number Two is only supposed to be for military settings, or for some kind of extremely hierarchical structure if it's not a military. I definitely remember a discussion in the past about how Number Two gets misused for non-military (or similarly rigid) hierarchies. So, whether Number Two needs a clean-up or a definition expansion, I don't know, but my post here is based on that past discussion (which I'm trying to find, but can't currently locate).

So, what do you do for works that don't have this rigid hierarchy but still have a very clear and unambiguous "second most senior" status to the Big Bad compared to the other villains (or because there's only a villainous leader-subordinate pair)? Putting them into Number Two is technically misuse of that trope, but it's possible that The Dragon could be the sister trope that captures them (at least for villainous examples).

The question is should Number Two be that rigid? Or, should Number Two be the name of a super-trope that captures a range of "second most important/senior" tropes (heroic, villainous, etc.) such as the current Number Two (second-in-command of a rigid hierarchy, whether villainous, heroic or other), The Dragon (second most important/senior of a loose or non-existent villainous hierarchy), Dragon-in-Chief, etc.

This probably would not include The Heavy because the heavy does the "heavy-lifting" of carrying out the conflict between the villain and the heroes, whereas the Big Bad drives the plot itself and is the source of the conflict The Heavy is implementing for them. The main issue is that The Heavy is usually either "Number Two" or "The Dragon" (if the Big Bad is more aloof and distant from contact with the heroes, such as Non-Action Big Bad or Orcus on His Throne examples) or the Big Bad themselves (if they're more hands-on), so they're not always going to be second-in-command.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 13th 2023 at 2:36:51 PM

"Number Two is only supposed to be for military settings"

Well it is a problem.

Sure, The Dragon may not always be Number Two. Leaving misued wick aside, The Dragon is still Big Bad's to-go man to carry out the Evil Plan and create obstacles for heroes. May not be The Heavy as that may invole Offstage Villainy.

Agreed, The Heavy isn't always the Big Bad or the second-most-senior villain. There may be a villain who is subordinate to either or both who is the main "contact" with the heroes in terms of who the heroes are directly in conflict with until the story is ready to pit them directly against the most senior villains.

My thought is that the relationship between the tropes is something like this:

• Big Bad: the reason the plot exists — the source of the "conflict" the heroes are trying to deal with.
• The Dragon: the right-hand of the Big Bad, seen as necessary/useful by the Big Bad for managing the Big Bad's conflict, or at least implementing it. Not all Big Bads will have one.
• The Heavy: the main contact point for the heroes; the primary conflict target they're dealing with throughout the story and who may therefore be the immediate "face" of what they're dealing with. This can be the Big Bad or The Dragon or a third villain who answers to either or both.

• Number Two: the second-in-command of a defined hierarchy, who answers directly to the one in charge of the command structure and is usually instrumental in carrying out the commander's orders and plans. They can be villains, heroes, neutral, or any combination.
  • If they're instrumental in carrying out a villainous leader's evil plans, they're also The Dragon.
  • If they're the villain who deals most directly with the protagonists throughout the story on behalf of the villainous plan, they're also The Heavy.
  • They will only be the Big Bad if their leader is non-villainous, or if tropes like Dragon-in-Chief, The Man in Front of the Man, etc. are in play.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 13th 2023 at 3:28:46 PM

Hmm. The oldest Internet Archive version of Number Two defines the trope specifically in relation to The Captain and lists Star Trek: The Next Generation as the first of two examples, but then the second example is Dr. Evil's Number Two from Austin Powers, and the Archived Discussion raises the concern that the trope is named entirely around that reference. But then it seemingly contradicts any Austin Powers-related origin by claiming The Dragon to be its evil counterpart.

Edited by MorganWick on May 14th 2023 at 2:00:39 AM

I have decided I'll start the Wick Check tonight. Anyone who wants to join is welcome.

Bumping this thread as The Dragon Wick Check is halfway done. Feel free to add more wicks.

I'm not sure how significant is the "penultimate threat" / "second-last boss" definition. As for the "villain's main lackey" definition, they could be safely replaced with Number Two.