Complete Monster Cleanup

After watching the film, can vouch to keep Clements.

Other account got hacked I think

I'm going to say cut the Old Monk. I'm having trouble finding G's original EP, but the writeup seems to neglect the fact that his golden robe is not just an Artifact of Doom, but actually a sentient demon in its own right that ended up possessing him. While he seems to have been evil to begin with, by the time he returned to Latria, the robe was in control, and it's willing to abandon him to die for a new host:

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.

Here's the EP for the Monk.

Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.

I'll try and find the discussion but while contentious, I do recall his agency was discussed. I'll get more details but I think it was ruled to be a case of a villain wanting power and taking a corruptive artifacts while knowing what it would do. I'm not familiar but I know Father keeps despite removing his emotions because he knew it would allow him single-minded focus on becoming a new God.

Edit: 'd

Edit 2: Okay, now looking through it, I'm not sure given idk if we get anything on the old monk pre robe other than a generic "evil" mention and if we can't tell where the agency-impairing robe ends and he begins makes it hard to say what villain we're even looking at.

Edited by 43110 on Dec 28th 2023 at 10:42:50 AM

There's no indication what he actually did to get banished, just that he was "despicable" somehow. In fact, the japanese and english versions don't even agree on the little bit of backstory we do get: in the japanese text and the more faithful remake translation, he wasn't even explicitly called the queen's husband at all.

And while he seems to have taken on the robe willingly, albeit out of desperation (one item description says he accepted it because he had nothing to lose), it's not made clear where he begins and the robe ends after. So I don't feel confident saying he had full agency in everything he did after coming back to Latria, especially since it also says the robe drove him mad.

It's just too ambiguous for me personally, I'm still leaning cut.

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.

I'm already very suspicious of the Old Monk as soon as I read his TV tropes character entry so leaning on cutting him.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Dec 29th 2023 at 12:57:37 AM

About Henry Creel/Vecna, from what I learn from the Play (you can read about it on web), it has given him reddeming qualities, because he cares about Patty Nelrby and when the Mind Flayer took control of his body to kill said girl's father, Henry refused to do it, because he didn't want to hurt anyone. The only moments he let the Mind Flayer take control of him is when he learn the hate of his family towards him, allowig the Flayer to kill his mother and sister, and when Patty is apparently killed. With all of this said, its also worthy to mention that despite all the torture Brenner inflicts on him to see his "potential" with the Mind Flayer, he resists the surrender to kill until Patty is aparently killed. So, Vecna is at least a tragic villain and there is no indication he does not care about Patty anymore. At all, when he gives the Mind Flayer total control over him (desolated by Patty's aparent death), he still suffers of moral agency issues. At least, is not safe to us consider him a CM at all.

Edited by caio202 on Dec 28th 2023 at 2:53:54 PM

So from what I'm gathering you're also going off of a plot summary and haven't actually seen it. Is that accurate? Cause if it is, I'm gonna ask that you delete that - we go off what we know, not what we can guess from plot summaries

Let's cut the G-bashing for the moment.

Found this on Monster.Film D To E, no, not proposing to cut a candidate here...

• Deranged (2012): James Kim is a scummy corporate executive who is behind the Yeongasi outbreak in South Korea. Pumping the viral parasites into the country's water supply, Kim infects hundreds of thousands with the Yeongasi, leading to thousands of people being driven insane and drowning themselves thanks to the virus. Deliberately thwarting attempts to cure the virus and murdering his own allies to keep things quiet, Kim plans to sell his own cure for a massive fortune, willing to let tens of thousands more innocents die if his outlandish prices aren't met.

... turns out there are two movies called Deranged, both released in 2012 (seriously, what are the odds) - a British one which has a page and a South Korean medical drama which... doesn't.

As always, I'm sure someone proposed the film before the page was made. And the CM list is erroneously potholed to the British one

V maybe that could work, not sure if the disambig thread cares about page-less works

Edited by RobertTYL on Dec 29th 2023 at 3:05:33 AM

Uh. Think this should be taken to disambigioton. Maybe The Deranged 2012 UK The Deranged 2013 South Korea.

Anyway for the old monk. So it seems not clear if he's an empty shell or his own thing.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 28th 2023 at 11:04:45 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

It's not a question of being an empty shell or not, the issue is more just.... can we say for sure all his actions are his, and that he was sane enough to be doing things consciously? On the one hand, he's indicated to have gotten possessed on purpose. On the other hand, the possession isn't fully symbiotic: while the robe doesn't show any clear personality, it does have its own agenda on some level since it's stated to be willing to abandon the Monk for a new host.

There's just a lot of ambiguity about how the possession works and what it means. The details are really vague and scattered and open to interpretation from everything I can find. Even by From Software's Story Breadcrumbs standards, Demon's Souls can get very sparse with its storytelling so I'm leery about anything that presents a specific interpretation as hard fact.

Edited by TheGrayFox on Dec 29th 2023 at 3:49:59 AM

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.

That's part of what's kept me from proposing the All-Black symbiote.

Edited by Arawn999 on Dec 29th 2023 at 8:06:16 AM

Cut the old monk.

Cut old monk

Cut old monk than.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Slice the monk.

"Us weirdos have to stick together!"

Slight change I'd like to make for my own Pierce Patchett entry... just to emphasize he also pays Japanese soldiers to continue attacking after Pearl Harbor, so it's not even just Murder by Inaction.

From:

Covering up a series of murders of children by the insane son of a media mogul, Patchett also withholds knowledge of Japanese attacks during World War II, including Pearl Harbor, so the festering prejudice will allow him to purchase Japanese-American owned properties cheap.

To:

Covering up a series of murders of children by the insane son of a media mogul; Patchett later allows for Japanese attacks during World War II, including Pearl Harbor, and even engineers more, so the festering prejudice will allow him to purchase Japanese-American owned properties cheap.

Using a semicolon too so the split's cleaner.

That fragment seems off. This work?

Pierce Morehouse Patchett uses his public persona as an eccentric, successful businessman to mask his crimes, as well as covering up a series of murders of children by the insane son of a media mogul. {WWII stuff)

EDIT: Wait, no, this instead:

• Pierce Morehouse Patchett, besides using his public persona as an eccentric, successful businessman to mask his crimes, also covers up a series of murders of children by the insane son of a media mogul. Patchett later allows for Japanese attacks during World War II, including Pearl Harbor, and even engineers more, so the festering prejudice will allow him to purchase Japanese-American owned properties cheap.

Edited by ACW on Dec 29th 2023 at 1:17:23 PM

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

It's one I care about and I'd like to be involved in the final look. Are you fine with leaving the first two sentences thusly?

"Pierce Morehouse Patchett uses his public persona as an eccentric, successful businessman to mask his crimes, covering up a series of murders of children by the insane son of a media mogul. Patchett later allows for Japanese attacks during World War II, including Pearl Harbor, and even engineers more, so the festering prejudice will allow him to purchase Japanese-American owned properties cheap."

Good enough. Anything else would be nitpicking (well, MORE nitpicking ).

So, this the final rewrite?

• Pierce Morehouse Patchett uses his public persona as an eccentric, successful businessman to mask his crimes, covering up a series of murders of children by the insane son of a media mogul. Patchett later allows for Japanese attacks during World War II, including Pearl Harbor, and even engineers more, so the festering prejudice will allow him to purchase Japanese-American owned properties cheap. With his Fleur-de-Lis prostitution ring, Patchett pimps to wealthy associates, even having young boys and girls pose in sexual photos for his depraved clients. Patchett also uses his background in chemistry to modify heroin stolen from Mickey Cohen and create more potent batches to flood the streets and even modifies some doses to have his partner overcome police truth serum. Batches of his new concoctions are tested on one of his runners, and when the man fails to kill an investigating police officer, Patchett tortures him by injecting him with a series of bad strains.

Edited by ACW on Dec 29th 2023 at 2:32:14 PM

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Got some cuts to submit, btw, talked it over with a few people including the OG proposer who feels similarly. All from Monster.The Punisher, lemme start with the easier one:

• Naked Kill, written by Jonathan Maberry: Mickey Fane, along with his lover Polly Hu and Mickey's nephew Eleventhree, run a horrific human trafficking operation. Taking monthly shipments of women and making rough pornography with them, they eventually force the women to kill one another until one can go free, only to make her film a video with Eleventhree, named for his massive size, to the point where Eleventhree simply rapes his victim to death. Polly also regularly brings Mickey girls to rape while filming Eleventhree in his movies. When Frank arrives, Mickey callously abandons Polly and Eleventhree to be killed in the security protocol as well, with Frank managing to save the girls, before ambushing Mickey himself when Mickey plans on a new shipment of girls to torture and kill.
  • Eleventhree is more than fine, he's a nasty rapist and murderer who doesn't care about anyone else.

  • Now, Mickey and Polly seem like a "strictly business" couple, best exemplified when, at the end, Mickey callously ditched Polly to die. The issue, though...after the fact, Mickey is shown in a single panel looking at a photo of Polly on his desk, whimsically saying "I'm sorry, baby. I miss you..." before snapping in anger at his secretary for bothering him when he asked to be left alone. It does indicate he somewhat cared about Polly and feels bad for ditching her to die.

  • Polly, I think, is fine. Even if Mickey's reaction after her death indicates he felt something for her, she never returns the affections. I just think the reaction Mickey has after her death is a bit too strong to say he didn't care about Polly at all.

And now, the more controversial one...

• "The Slavers" arc: Romanians Tiberiu Bulat, his son Cristu Bulat, and their associate (and Cristu's lover) Vera Konstantin are the titular slavers. Tiberiu and Cristu led an Eastern European militia during The Yugoslav Wars responsible for ethnic cleansing, slaughtering several entire villages until Cristu got the idea to take young women captive. They forced them into sexual slavery and went to the United States to export the business. Tiberiu is a sadistic, trigger-happy madman who'll kill anyone at the slightest provocation, while Cristu and Vera are practical business types, but just as evil, with Vera coming up with the strategy of "rape them to break them". These three are not above killing babies, as they send an email that shows the dead baby of an escaped victim.
  • Now, Tiberiu is fine. He's an Ax-Crazy warlord responsible for heinous ethnic cleansing and who is onboard with the trafficking business, even if he's very backseat about it because he prefers "old ways" killing and slaughter more.

  • Cristu and Vera, though...I think they have to go. They seem to have genuine care for each other, even if subtle. Viorica notes that Cristu and Vera are "close" when describing them; Cristu shares private details of his plan to assassinate Tiberiu with Vera even though she could easily turn him into Tiberiu, yet she sticks by him in his scheme; and when Tiberiu survives said assassination attempt? Vera doesn't rat out Cristu even when intimidated by Tiberiu, calls up Cristu, warns him, and worriedly asks if he's got enough men to protect himself if Tiberiu comes after him. Even when Cristu reassures her, she mutters his name "Cristu..." and he, again, reassures her "It's alright, Vera. It was probably always going to be like this."
  • Furthermore, when he's captured and questioned by Punisher, Cristu refuses to give any details about Vera at first. Punisher has to disembowel and subject Cristu to horrific tortures before he finally breaks and gives up Vera.
  • I think, even if it's subtle, the intent for Cristu and Vera to care about each other is there. They share intimate details of their plans, they're described as being "close", Vera seems genuinely concerned for Cristu and when he's being tortured, Cristu doesn't initially tell Punisher anything about Vera. Compared to the utter batshit nutbar of Tiberiu who explicitly cares nothing for his allies, I don't think Vera and Cristu ever subvert Unholy Matrimony.

Altogether, I'd say Mickey, Cristu and Vera should be cut for all caring about their respective partners. Polly I'm mostly fine with staying since she never expressed genuine care for anyone, while Eleventhree and Tiberiu I'm a firm keep for since they're both just Ax-Crazy sadists.

Tonight I dine on monkey soup.

Cut Mickey, Cristu and Vera.

Cut Mickey from the first trio; Cristu and Vera from the second... they can be as nasty as they can, the moments of care feel like Man-Seok freaking out over his little brother's safety, even briefly and otherwise the guy's a child murdering organ trafficker. Redeeming qualities are redeeming qualities.

Cut Mickey, Cristu and Vera

Cut Mickey, Cristu and Vera