Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
So back to the Blackhand and Gul'dan discussion, should I replace the Breeding Experiment bit with the lore of Gul'dan sacrificing most of his loyal necrolyte followers to create the Death Knights?
That is inLiterature/World of Warcraft: Chronicle for reference.
Edited by Monsund on Sep 19th 2023 at 6:27:32 AM
I'm good for the rewrite there Splonk and whatever needs to be corrected factually for Guldan. Any more feedback here?
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Talked with Ravok on this and this is possibly the first official CM entry I'm suggesting to be cut.
"Mr. Accident (2000): Duxton Chevalier is a surprisingly serious and evil villain for a comedy film. He forces his brother to hand over his egg company by threatening to chop the leg off of his beloved dog and gets more sinister as the film goes on. It's revealed that he murdered his own brother after already getting the company, stuffing his body in a refrigerator and sending it through a recycling machine. He then spikes the chicken feed with nicotine in order to produce nicotine-spiked eggs to get people addicted to the eggs so he can bring in the cash. As a result, when he discovers Roger is his ex's new boyfriend, he stuffs him and his best friend in another refrigerator and tries to repeat what he did with his brother with them still alive. He then moves on to try to murder his girlfriend Sunday with an ax after she rebukes his affections one last time. After Roger confronts him on his plan, asking if baby food is next, Duxton reacts by saying: "We're working on it".""
From his writeup, it looks like all he has going for him was one murder, three attempted murders, and getting people addicted, the last one probably not being played for the horror it could have been.
I'll wait for whoever is familiar with the film to report in.
IPP Wick Check created.
RIP Toriyama
I dig the rewrites 43! Haven't seen the film but yeah I'm not feeling Duxton there, seems kinda tame and the clips I've seen he seems to have plenty humor around his crimes.
Edited by Ravok on Sep 19th 2023 at 10:17:24 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
Yeah ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Duxton.
Cut Duxton. And on that note I would like to announce my intent to reserve Marvel's Spider-Man 2 for discussion.
Edited by Arawn999 on Sep 20th 2023 at 12:00:44 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Not the Eye
Cut Duxton
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Kenshin and first Zombie rewrites
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Cut Duxton. here’s a clip for reference, this just feels like a parody.
Edit: was he ever discussed? I couldn’t find the original post
Edited by LarryT on Sep 20th 2023 at 5:26:03 AM
In honor of Akira Toriyama
Mister
I’d like to nominate that we cut Evolto/Kamen Rider Evol, since the V-Cinema for his home show a) introduces his brother who is much worse than he is and is stated to be responsible for his planet killing, b) has him remember his destroyed home planet fondly, indicating that he was driven mad by its loss, which gives him some mitigating factors/Freudian Excuse and c) is willing to work with the heroes to stop said brother, indicating that Even Evil Has Standards. While one could argue that the Evolto in the V-Cin is a clone who Came Back Wrong, he is for all intents and purposes the same character as the show, with the same memories (at worst, he is Reformed, but Not Tamed).
Felix Alexander Ellis
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
Gentle Laborer
IIRC Evolt ends the movie by promising that he will return to destroy Earth some day, and he only agrees to stop his brother because he hates his guts, not out of any desire to save the galaxy from him. That being said, he does have an anti-heroic vibe to him and his interactions with the heroes are very genuine.
I remember something similar happening with Swartz—supplementary material has him protecting and entire school from monsters out of genuine concern for the students and helping Sougo defeat another variant of Oma Zi-O, having secretly developed an appreciation for Sougo as a person.
Don't know what we should do, the franchise is fond of creating post-series specials just to give random positive qualities to uber-evil villains, it's frustating to say the least. I'm frankly leaning "Cut" on both Evolt and Swartz at this point.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
That was his father, Masamune.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Sep 20th 2023 at 11:07:37 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Didn't Kuroto Dan also get a late redeeming quality? Weird.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh, right. Point still stands.
Edited by ACW on Sep 20th 2023 at 10:20:58 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yeah, Duxton may be to comical. The description for that YouTube video doesn't really help his case: "I uploaded this because in my opinion David Field's performance as Duxton Chevalier is the greatest in the history of comedic villains. Literally everything he says in this movie is simultaneously menacing and hilarious."
Edited by TVRulezAgain on Sep 20th 2023 at 8:35:05 AM
@VenomousSeal @TheMadCr0w Even putting the "is Evolt the same Evolt" thing aside, the way he behaves isn't all that different than in the series. He hardly has an "anti-heroic vibe" in the movie, he just does not want to die, which is what will happen if Killbus wins. There's literally a moment where Evolt nonchalantly admits to murdering both of Ryuga's parents without any remorse right in front of Ryuga. Even at the end, when he leaves Earth, Ryuga outright warns him not to ever come back, making it clear that Evolt hasn't actually reformed at all. Sure, he's jovial and Faux Affably Evil, but he was that way in the original series. He doesn't act sadistic, but given he's going up against someone capable of destroying the entire universe if not stopped from winning Evolt doesn't have time for that (if not because he suffered a Death of Personality during his regeneration). Even in the series, Evolt kept his sadistic side covered up for most of it and only let it slip out whenever he was assured of his victory and holding all the cards.
Evolt also planned on destroying the universe, just not all at once and in a way that would allow himself to outlast it, so he and his brother are pretty much on par when it comes to scale of their villainy.
Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Sep 20th 2023 at 12:10:22 PM
Just imagine something here.
I figured Masamune Dan could one day be cut after revealing how much he cared about his wife after all, but I also just imagined that Evolto's crimes and villainy are on a bigger scale (just not exactly as big as his brother's) that such things like his newfound respect wouldn't matter that much. In Swartz's case, they intentionally brought him back as a less villainous (and sometimes comedic) incarnation than the original, so they could still be considered separate versions even after regaining his old self's powers and memories.
Edited by AgentSkyblueM7 on Sep 20th 2023 at 7:11:48 AM
Gentle Laborer
We literally decided to cut Ryoma Sengoku because his robotic clone had the same memories as his original counterpart and actually respected Takatora as a friend. I was against it at the time, but it's really no different from Swartz having started to like Sougo after regaining his memories.
@Reddish The movie treats that Evolt as the same character, saying it's an Ambiguous Situation honestly seems like Alternative Character Interpretation. But, I do agree he never really redeemed himself.
I'm still a 100% "Cut" on the case of Swartz, weird as his whole Character Development is. There's no other way to interpret Swartz putting his own safety at risk to save the lives of kids.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Sep 20th 2023 at 1:07:10 PM
The thing about Swartz is that the version of him in the new timeline lived an entirely different life than the original, so it really is questionable if he can be considered the same entity even after he gains the original's memories.
I would also honestly still contest the decision to cut Ryoma, considering he still had no problem trying to kill Takatora and his dialogue isn't much more than respect for Takatora's strength. Takatora may still have viewed Ryoma as a friend, but the tragedy of the scene comes from the fact that he still cares for Ryoma even though Ryoma has betrayed him and made it clear he never truly felt close to Takatora.
Just imagine something here.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Duxton may be a cut, but that description doesn't make the case. It could easily describe the Joker.
Can't hurt.
Edited by ACW on Sep 20th 2023 at 1:11:33 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Good point.
Actually, I checked web archives, and it looks like Godzillawolf added Duxton way back in 2011. Godzillawolf made posts in the old cleanup thread and is still on the site. Should we consult them?
Gentle Laborer
And I agree. Ryoma/Robo-Ryoma is an instance where I actually do believe there's a distinction between the two. It's been ages since I watched Gaim-related content so I unfortunately don't have the material or the motivation for a re-proposal.
Cut Duxton.
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Okay so I have a small issue with one candidate I guess I can talk about and see what you guys think:
- The Last of Us Part II: Isaac Dixon is the leader of the Washington Liberation Front (WLF), aka the Wolves. A warmongering tyrant, Isaac has sacrificed many of his own men to take over, having citizens rounded up to be controlled in one place and shot if they refuse. Engaging with the religious cult, the Seraphites, Isaac abducts prisoners to torture for information before attempting a wide-scale assault with the intent of massacring the Seraphites completely to the last man, woman, and child. Even when finding out Abby, his best soldier, is sheltering a Seraphite boy named Lev, Isaac simply attempts to execute both of them.
Now the small issue I see is his relationship with Abby, his top soldier who he seems to have genuine affection for. His death scene has him hesitate to actually kill Abby, warning her several times and when Abby stands her ground, Isaac does seem conflicting, hesitating to actually shoot her for a few seconds before he gets shot by Yara. You guys think this is an issue or no?
Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Sep 20th 2023 at 3:16:38 PM
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
Alright so I got a rewrite to suggest, and this is actually for the first character I EP'd on here! That being this one.
- TheManBeHisLa's "Entropy of Vengeance
" (Minecraft song): The First Zombie is one of the callous leaders of a cult that is seeking to bring forth "the hour of the end" and enact vengeance upon the player that wronged them via mass mob sacrifice in order to create soul sand. Seeking to use the multiverse as his dinner plate, the Zombie goads the once-innocent Wolf into joining his cause by using their shared backstories to his advantage, all the while mocking him for still caring for his player. Upon convincing him to sign his soul away, the Zombie, the Wolf, and the Wither Skeleton join together to create the Wither before attacking their player's current resting place, killing them without mercy. With a sadistic grin on his face and enjoying the levels of depravity he pushed the once-friendly canine to, the Zombie proves himself to be far more depraved than any of his fellow cult members.
Honestly? I've never been the most happy with how this writeup turned out and wanted to give it a revamp, but it felt a little too soon? If that makes any sense, but now that it's been a bit and I'm more adapted to the way TVT does things, I've given the Zombie a full rewrite that expands on some of his acts and words things just a little bit better.- TheManBeHisLa's "Entropy of Vengeance
" (Minecraft song): The First Zombie is one of the leaders of a cult that is seeking to bring fourth "the hour of the end". Aiming to use the multiverse as his dinner plate, he constructs the the Wither, using the souls of vengeful mobs who ahave a bone to pick with the player that left them behind. Seeking to complete the ritual, he manipulates the Player's First Pet, the Wolf, into abandoning all care he had them using his smooth charms and charisma. Succesfully convincing the Wolf to sign his soul away, the two along with the Wither Skeleton fuse with the thousands of abandoned souls to become the Wither, invading their player's new home and slaughtering numerous innocents before killing their old master, all while the Zombie takes joy in how far the Wolf has fallen. Lacking the Wolf's sympathetic motive and the Wither Skeleton's enigmatic personality, the Zombie proves himself to be the worst that the cult has to offer.
Here it is! Is it perfect? Probably not, but I think I am more happy with how this looks compared to the previous one. My mere presence makes everyone's day worse.