Sequel Consensus Thread

I noticed that there wasn’t a thread for Even Better Sequel and Contested Sequel so I decided to add one here. Several YMMV pages have debatable Even Better Sequel or Contested Sequel entries. For example Doom Eternal has extensive Wall of Text Broken Base entries (that should really be trimmed down now that I think of it) that cover core elements of the game’s design (for example the combat and art style) yet is listed as an Even Better Sequel instead of an Contested Sequel. There’s also the question of if you can list a Spiritual Successor as one of these tropes if it’s fundamentally a sequel to a work, just as a different IP (for example Perfect Dark is, by design, a sequel to GoldenEye on N64 just without the James Bond license). So feel free to bring any questionable entries of Even Better Sequel, Contested Sequel, and possibly other tropes about a sequel’s reception here.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Aug 8th 2022 at 2:53:45 PM

Saw this entry recently on YMMV.The Ice Age Adventures Of Buck Wild:

• Contested Sequel: To an extent, at least. While it is still widely agreed that this film is nowhere near as good as the first three films in the series (or even Continental Drift, for that matter), viewers are split into three camps - those that consider it a slight improvement over Collision Course, those that view it as even worse than its predecessor and those that view it on the same level as its predecessor.

Two questions:

1. If the movie, in this case, is still considered to be bad among fans, wouldn't it be a case of Sequelitis regardless? It's still viewed as a bad sequel, it's just that some fans differ in opinion in how bad it is in comparison to the already-disliked fifth one.
2. If I come across a Contested Sequel entry that potholes Surprisingly Improved Sequel or Even Better Sequel in the part that says "some people think it's better" and potholes Sequelitis in the part that says "some people think it's worse", am I cleared to remove those potholes? It doesn't add anything meaningful to the conversation about the film and it's misleading because those items refer to a more broad consensus than those potholes suggest.

God of War III is listed as an Even Better Sequel even though whenever I hear the game brought up, people usually call it one of the weaker games. I have not played any games in the series except God of War 2018 so I am in no position to change it to Contested Sequel

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Aug 23rd 2022 at 1:33:18 PM

I want to add a Contested Sequel entry for Pokémon Scarlet and Violet. I haven’t played so I’m going purely off of what people have said.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Jan 23rd 2023 at 12:39:29 PM

Contested Sequel is a Sub-Trope to Broken Base so it has the same six-month No Recent Examples, Please! waiting time.

In response to the first post, I kinda agree that Doom Eternal shouldn't count as an "even better sequel". This is the current entry:

• Even Better Sequel: Despite some gameplay design issues as detailed on Broken Base above, the game is still almost universally agreed by fans to be dramatically improved upon the first game, with a longer campaign, more varied locations, and large improvements to gameplay and graphics.

Translation: "Fans are generally a bit mixed on parts of the game, but despite that everybody loves it and has no problems with it!"

I'm certainly a bit biased here (I love Doom (2016) but don't really like Eternal), and I think the general consensus is that Eternal is better, but I feel there's enough debate surrounding various aspects of the game design that I don't think its fair to call it a straightforward upgrade. I feel the super hardcore fans love Eternal, and since they're the ones writing the video essays and discussing the game on forums there's a Vocal Minority that makes praise for the game seem a bit more widespread than it really is. At the very least this entry should be rewritten so that it doesn't do a blatant about-face.

Pikmin 2 and Pikmin 3 both have entries for Contested Sequel and Even Better Sequel. I haven’t much in the way of people disliking 3 in the same way people dislike 2 so I don’t know if it counts as a Contested Sequel. 2 on the other hand definitely is a Contested Sequel because while the game was highly acclaimed and it being better than the first is a common opinion, I frequently see people who, at best, think it’s the weakest game of the mainline series or flat out think Pikmin 2 is bad. With Pikmin 2 it has less to do with quality but more the fact that Pikmin 1 and 2 are vastly different in terms of structure (Pikmin 1 is a pure RTS with a time limit while 2 removes the time limit and the caves are a Dungeon Crawler that take up most of the game).

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Jul 16th 2023 at 6:11:39 AM

Something kinda irks me that Avatar: The Way of Water's YMMV page has it called an Even Better Sequel entry. I look online and that is not the impression I get. Most people I see either think its just as good as the original (and if that's coming from an Avatar hater then it means it isn't good at all) or just unremarkable in terms of story and that it didn't improve on any of the previous movie's writing flaws.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jul 16th 2023 at 7:12:59 PM

Pikmin 2 is 100% a Contested Sequel to the point even the developers have directly acknowledged that the fanbase can be split into Pikmin 1 fans and Pikmin 2 fans. I'm not entirely sure if Pikmin 3 counts as either trope though, since I've never seen all that much in the way of strong distaste for it. It seems pretty well liked overall.

Edited by RacattackForce on Jul 18th 2023 at 4:22:18 AM

Anyone have any thoughts on the Avatar 2 consensus?

Already mentioned in the Avatar thread that I didn't see many people prefer it to the original, even here on TV Tropes, so claiming to be an Even Better Sequel is preposterous.

(and while Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny has already shaped up to be a Contested Sequel, it can only enter the page in December but it's already there, can someone remove the entry?)

Would Contested Sequel work better for Avatar 2? Or is it not even that?

Maybe a Surprisingly Improved Sequel example for Avatar 2 could work as that trope does not require the sequel to be amazing, just an improvement over the original in some manner.

The italicized disclaimer on Surprisingly Improved Sequel makes clear the previous installment "either sucked or were just average". As much as people complain about Avatar, and there is a So Okay, It's Average entry on the YMMV page, it's not the case (and decided to check, the only place where The Way of Water has higher scores is the RT audience one). And might also not enter Contested Sequel even with other cases of "consensus on being good, but not on whether it's better than the first" (Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Deadpool 2), although the lack of online discussion due to Obscure Popularity helps. In any case, being positively received while not entering any trope regarding sequel quality is not detrimental in any way.

I wrote this Contested Sequel entry under Avatar 2 to better reflect its actual consensus.

How does this sound?

• Contested Sequel: As the long-awaited (sort of) sequel to a popular but divisive movie, The Way of Water splits viewers on its quality. The film is either an better than the first film, on the same level as the first film, or worse than the first film.
  • The viewers who consider this an Even Better Sequel praise the film expanding upon the world building and giving much need Character Development to the main characters. There are those who find the first film So Okay, It's Average and applaud this film for fixing the problems of the first. There's also those who like or love the first film already and consider The Way of Water to simply be improving what was already great.
  • The camp that considers this to be on par with the first is also split. There are those who dislike the first film or find it mediocre and forgettable and that this movie, while having a slight improvements, is still fairly mediocre. Then there are those who like the first film and consider this film to be as good, just not better.
  • Then is the camp who considers this worse than the first. Amongst the first film's detractors, they think this movie manages to have an even more generic story with far more annoying characters like Spider, in comparison to the more bland characters of the first; the first film's one redeeming factor of stunning 3D visual effects they feel doesn't feel as breathtaking as the first film due to the novelty running off. Those who like the first film's simple story and characters, dislike how even more drawn out and complicated this film's story was and argue the first film's plot, while generic, had a grander approach to it than this film's more scaled down approach.

Should I change anything?

I would shorten it to one entry rather than a set of bullet points.

YMMV.F Zero GX recently replaced Contested Sequel with Even Better Sequel with the comment "The vast majority of F-Zero fans consider GX to be the best game in the series. A lot of these criticisms feel overrepresented."

• Even Better Sequel: X was already well-regarded for taking the series into 3D, but GX was a smash commercial success upon release, and to this day many fans consider it the best in the series, thanks to its spectacular graphical presentation, innovative and twisty courses, challenging yet satisfying gameplay, and a diverse cast of characters and machines.

I disagree with this being a universal Even Better Sequel. I tried to represent general fan reaction, and not liking GX is an opinion that consistently exists, not just a vocal minority. I gathered critic and fan opinions from last 5 years.

• Nintendo Life - "Soapbox: It's Time To Admit That F-Zero X Is The Best F-Zero". This article was from 2019 and republished in 2023 for Switch Online release. It was written by Nintendo Life founder and talks about how he prefers X over GX, calling the latter "an aggressive arcade racer (by Sega)" and too different from Nintendo for him to like it. This article has a registered user's poll deciding which is the best F-Zero. X and GX got 29% and 55%. Polls favor GX, but X is still too high to consider it minority.
• Reddit threads tend to be very subjective to judge, so I'm picking the ones that has above 100 comments and where comparisons between X and GX are made. F-Zero X Trailer - Nintendo 64 - Nintendo Switch Online . This is 2023 post from r/Games, which has over 3 million members. This comment section has a few comparing X and GX. This comment recommends GX. There are replies that agree with it, but it's also followed by a half dozen of replies that claim X is a better game, criticizing GX's different approach on graphics and high difficulty. Other comment says X's art style and anti-gravity are just as good as GX.
• "Does the original F-Zero hold up for you against X or GX? Edit: F-Zero 99 discussion in here too". This 2021 thread from retrogameboards has a lengthy discussion about X and GX. There are some members that prefer X over GX, saying the physics in GX are not good for them or they just prefer X's physics basesd on their personal experience.
• Is F-Zero X [N64] Worth Playing Today? - SNESdrunk. A YouTube review in 2020. This video also has a few comments that prefer X over GX, saying X's soundtrack is better than GX or X is just more fun than GX. There's a comment that says GX is "the magnum opus of the series", to which some replies disagree, some calling GX too hard.

The criticisms against GX not only exist, but they're pretty consistent: soundtrack, different feels of gameplay, and high difficulty are common points. So I think this is a Contested Sequel.