To-do list
- Move wicks to Simple Staff to the tropes listed on the disambig when applicable. Delete Zero-Context Example and anything that doesn't fit an existing trope.
- 38,(6)% (29/75) of wicks describe a staff that's used for melee combat
- 8% (6/75) of wicks describe other stick-like melee weapon
- 28% (21/75) of wicks are misused Magic Staff examples
- 16% (12/75) of wicks are unidentifiable ZCEsnote
- 9,(3)% (7/75) of wicks are unclear/vague
Additionally, at least 31 of 166 Main/ wicks (~18,6%) are misused, and actually refer to Magic Staff.
The main problem with the current definition is that it describes any stick used in melee as an example of this trope. Take, for example, the line "many double as symbols of status and thus feature elaborate headpieces". However, actual combat staves are not just clubs, and they should not have any headpieces, as it would mess with the balance. Meanwhile, most Magic Staves do have massive headpieces that are often used to hit the enemy with, should the staff be used in melee, adding to the confusion. Additionally, the page also mentions eskrima/kali sticks, that are also very different from staves.
In light of the above, I think that the reason for misuse is that the trope's definition is too wide. It just invites to shoehorn here any stick that's ever used to hit someone. In my opinion, it should be redefined to cover only staves used for martial arts. A good, albeit by no means universal, rule of thumb would be looking if the weapon has a defined top and bottom, as martial arts staves usually lack them. A rename may also be considered, given how the second paragraph contradicts the name with the line "not all staves need be so simple", and some examples include combinable and other hi-tech staves.
Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 27th 2022 at 8:46:34 AM
(she/her)
29 is a decent starting sample for examples (assuming they are all actual simple staves), so I'm for the narrowing of the trope. We should also rework the definition, at least that second paragraph, so it isn't contradicting itself. That should help curb misuse. I'm eh on renaming, though if we want to limit the scope then I guess something like Simple Combat Staff would work.
CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
What about calling it Non Magic Staff? It's not as catchy as Simple Staff, but it more clearly contrasts it with Magic Staff. Alterantively, we could call it Melee Staff, whose first word starts with the same letter as the first word of Magic Staff.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 1st 2022 at 6:56:32 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
He/Him
I like non-magic staff, although I wonder if it would get sceptres and the like as misuse. Non Magic Combat Staff? Mundane Combat Staff?
My troper wall
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Now that I think about it, I think including the word "combat" would be ideal to indicate that the staff is used to hit the wielder's opponents, as opposed to being something like a monarch's ornamental scepter.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 1st 2022 at 8:02:12 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Doesn't "melee" already impies that it's used for combat though?
Also, I probably should have mention that I put all staves that are used in martial-arts-style under correct usage, even though some of them are hi-tech and not-so-simple. Still, the word "simple" and the current description imply that staves in question are made of wood, while Sorting Algorithm of Weapon Effectiveness all but ensures that the user will eventually ditch wooden staves in favor of stronger ones (especially in videogames). I think that keeping the word "simple" doesn't make much sense; Melee Staff sounds pretty nice to me.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I'd be fine with omitting "combat" if we include "melee". I was mainly saying that maybe simply calling it Non Magic Staff without specifying that it's used for combat would result in an unclear name, since not every non-magic staff is used for combat.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Just stoic wisdom.
Honestly, I like "melee" more than "combat" because magic staves are still used for combat, just of the magical sort. "Melee" removes ambiguity.
Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail
(she/her)
Is there anything to this trope besides "character uses a weapon"? Is it the simplicity of the staff?
Macron's notes
I think so, especially when it is as is or more effective than more "advanced" weapons. I added it as a secondary trope to a video from Rogue One just now (VideoExamples.Simple Staff courtesy link) where Chirrut uses nothing but his senses and the staff to defeat a whole squad of mooks with guns.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Looking through the description, and there does seem to be more to this trope than "character uses a weapon":
So it's not just "character uses weapon", it's about the implication that the weapon holds. The quoted portions I provided show different reasons why different types of characters would use the weapon, and the implications behind their use. I personally think it's tropeworthy.
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
(she/her)
Oh, I was talking more about example usage but I didn't know how to phrase. it I wanted to see if character uses a staff in a combat situation or character is skilled in staff combat is enough context for the trope.
Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 1st 2022 at 11:47:32 AM
Macron's notes
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Oh OK, I misunderstood.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Staff of Authority appears to cover the type of non-combat staff I was referring to when I said including "combat" and/or "melee" would be preferable to simply calling it Non Magic Staff.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
How sweet it is
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Melee Staff. Short, sweet, and to the point.
Worth mentioning that Magic Staff was split from this trope in a previous TRS thread
.
If Magic Staff was already split from this trope, was any cleanup done afterwards? If not, that might be why we're seeing so much misuse.
I just checked, and that's actually what it mostly is. The TRS in question started in October 2011, and several examples predate it. However, there's still a lot of misuse added after TRS concluded, likely owing to several misleading trope descriptions in Main/. The worst one is White Magician Girl, that's not only a popular trope, but also makes it sound like Simple Staff is really a mage's weapon, separate from Magic Staff.
The question is — if we don't rename the trope, will a simple cleanup be enough to curb the misuse?
Well, if the description's what's causing the problem, maybe we could modify it too.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
Generally, changes to a trope's description do little to curb misuse, since most people rarely re-read the description of a trope they already know about, so they won't know anything's changed. If misuse is very persistent, a rename is often necessary.
I don't know if Melee Staff is an inherently tropeworthy concept, and I'd rather split it into tropes for the specific character archetypes associated with staves, much like we split Knife Nut into Psycho Knife Nut and Devious Daggers.
I believe that as a weapon, they are mainly used by magicians and martial artists.
Edited by Zuxtron on Jul 4th 2022 at 11:46:41 AM
(she/her)
Yeah, I was concerned about that. I know Simple Staff has tropeworthy attributes but people focus on the weapon than the character like most weapon tropes. I don't think using a staff in melee combat is tropable by itself. I would like more focus to be on the character with the staff being secondary to the trope. A character's choice of weapon is an extension of the character after all (or should be if we are looking for tropable concepts).
I'd rather split off a separate concept like Martial Arts Staff / Martial Artists Staff or something and limit the trope to martial artists so that not every character that uses a staff as a melee weapon would count. Maybe we can also disambiguate Simple Staff between that trope, Magic Staff, Staff of Authority, Weapon Specialization, and Weapon-Based Characterization (when the Weapon Of Choice split is finalized).
Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 4th 2022 at 12:39:19 PM
Macron's notes
QWEST!
I agree with Macron Notes, I could think of certain scenarios where a Magic Staff with magical offence could be used as a Melee weapon as well.
Edited by Diamondeye218 on Jul 4th 2022 at 9:22:05 AM
This deaf, dumb and blind kid sure plays a mean pinball.
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
I agree with splitting Simple Staff into a disambig page for various tropes pertaiing to the use of a staff as a weapon or a symbol of authority.
I do like the idea of a trope for martial artists using a staff being separate from one for mages using a staff (though Magic Staff could include those who are a hybrid of mages and martial artists (such as the Monkey King Sun Wukong, famous for his magical staff that can shrink and grow at will)).
Edited by Nen_desharu on Jul 4th 2022 at 12:42:59 PM
Kirby is awesome.
If we take the split route, the page also notes that staves are frequently used by technical pacifists, old people and members of religious orders.
Crown Description:
Consensus was to limit examples of Simple Staff to staves used for martial arts and rename the trope. What should the new name be?
To-do list
Additionally, at least 31 of 166 Main/ wicks (~18,6%) are misused, and actually refer to Magic Staff.
The main problem with the current definition is that it describes any stick used in melee as an example of this trope. Take, for example, the line "many double as symbols of status and thus feature elaborate headpieces". However, actual combat staves are not just clubs, and they should not have any headpieces, as it would mess with the balance. Meanwhile, most Magic Staves do have massive headpieces that are often used to hit the enemy with, should the staff be used in melee, adding to the confusion. Additionally, the page also mentions eskrima/kali sticks, that are also very different from staves.
In light of the above, I think that the reason for misuse is that the trope's definition is too wide. It just invites to shoehorn here any stick that's ever used to hit someone. In my opinion, it should be redefined to cover only staves used for martial arts. A good, albeit by no means universal, rule of thumb would be looking if the weapon has a defined top and bottom, as martial arts staves usually lack them. A rename may also be considered, given how the second paragraph contradicts the name with the line "not all staves need be so simple", and some examples include combinable and other hi-tech staves.
Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 27th 2022 at 8:46:34 AM