"too good at something and too bad at something else"

both somethings are the same as far as I can tell, making the two tiers mutually exclusive.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TierInducedScrappy/FireEmblem

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TierInducedScrappy/FireEmblemHeroes

Why is this page still up?

Because nobody moved examples?

I started LowTierLetdown.Fire Emblem but it still is messy.

By the way, you don't need to write out the full Urls.

Edited by randomtroper89 on Nov 27th 2022 at 4:08:37 AM

You can sort out the splits between high-tier and low-tier with sandboxes if you'd rather do that. Moving them directly to a new subpage would still work if you'd rather do that, though.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 27th 2022 at 4:36:51 AM

@randomtroper89 ...Do we really need a Low Tier Letdown page for Fire Emblem? Most Fire Emblem characters aren't a case of if they can get good, it's how fast they can — Low-Tier Letdown only really applies to units that have not only have no use even on the lowest level of play, but are widely notorious as such. And given that FE tends to have caps as even and that the official measuring stick in tiering is efficiency as opposed to results, it usually takes something Inherent in the System that's wrong with a unit to qualify them as such.

Regardless, I've made revisions to incorporate that in, if that's what you seek to include. Just keep in mind what the break was caused for (which is the overwhelming majority of Low-Tier Scrappies being, well, not Scrappies at all, or tangential in relation to their use in-game being less "unusably bad" so much "less of a surefire solution than others").

Edited by LordTwibill on Nov 28th 2022 at 7:40:56 AM

I think there are two types of characters that should be able to count:

• The Overshadowed by Awesome — a character who might be okay in their own right, but is notorious for never being worth picking over a similar character who outclasses them.
• A Magikarp Power character where the "Gyarados" form is not worth the hassle because its power level is poor and/or you have to slog through too much of the game with a terrible character. This type of character definitely counts in Player Versus Player games — it doesn't matter if they can become a powerhouse if any competent opponent will just steamroll you while you try to set it up. I think they can count in Player Versus Environment too.

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on Dec 1st 2022 at 4:21:47 PM

I like this too, but I think there needs to be a definition regarding ease of use. The question shouldn't be "can I use this character effectively, even if only in theory?" so much as "how practical is it to use?". Fire Emblem comes to mind, and it's why I've made clear that a unit should qualify if it lacks any meaningful Magikarp Power to them. Key emphasis on meaningful; they either have to be in a state where getting them to that point is either impractical even at casual play, and/or getting them to a comparable level is noticeable worse than practically all other alternatives. To use Fire Emblem as an example, that I think is the difference between units Amelia and Gwendolyn — both are terrible units for a variety of reasons, but only one of those two qualify under the above definitions (Amelia is deliberately designed to make those who put the effort into her very happy with the end result due to how the mechanics of Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones are perfectly designed with her in mind, meaning that to make her into a powerhouse is extremely easy, if merely a bit tedious to some players. Meanwhile, Gwendolyn is in a bad class, bad bases, bad join time, and doesn't even have the prospect of getting better a practical endeavor for her in the slightest due to the lack of easy grinding that Sacred Stones has, not to mention is in a game with turn clear requirements, huge maps, and basically demands that you sandbag the rest of your team to get her to an acceptable state.). So I think there's that to consider; if it's not a potential problem in stats, then ease of use should be the next best qualifier. I think we should distinguish between "unusably bad" and "merely tedious to git gud" for that reason, because obviously we need to keep the definitions of the split hard-coded to avoid any potential problems they may cause.

Edited by LordTwibill on Dec 1st 2022 at 11:43:16 AM

As a bit of a suggestion: maybe clean up Fire Emblem's High Tier Scrappy page? A massive chunk of them aren't even hated for being overpowered, let alone actual scrappies (in fact, a good chunk of them are liked because of their strong or memetically powerful performance by some, like Seth, FE3/12!Palla, or Rutger). Remember that they have to be The Scrappy to qualify in that space, and I don't know how many count or don't count.

Edited by LordTwibill on Dec 1st 2022 at 11:39:26 AM

Unless I'm missing something, your suggestion is like the exact function of this thread.

Yeah, that's why I was hoping to clarify it in advance. lol

Sorry. Just wanted to make sure it's all good.

Ok, with Tier Induced Scrappy for FE now cut, High Tier Scrappy doesn't have any games after Fates and Low Tier Letdown doesn't have any games after NME. Was that intentional? All the entries in the "both" section are also gone. I'm not too into the cleanup part of this site but as a reader it is pretty disappointing to see them gone when they had good info.

There was a small discussion on how to handle the "both" examples a few weeks ago. IMO characters can't really be both because having situations where they're good and bad just means they're a situational character. If it changes over the course of a series it's different, but even then it needs to be really extreme to actually be both.

It may also be the case that examples haven't finished being moved over.

Edited by Blegh on Dec 4th 2022 at 11:16:34 AM

Is there a way to see the history of deleted pages?

x3 A couple of my friends have said that Wyvern Lord is so good in 3H that it makes the entire game boring. You can turn everyone into one since reclassing is super accessible and easy in that game.

Apparently. I dropped 3H early because it bored me and am working off secondhand accounts.

• My Hero One's Justice has a few examples:
  • First, there's Tsuyu. She has a long ranged and high damaging attack combo that basically can be used many times and keeps the opponent on the air, and it's hard for them to recuperate. This was later fixed in a patch, however.
  • Todoroki has dominated the absolute top of the top tiers since release, doing tons of damage at just about any range possible and locking you into combos extremely easily. There is basically nothing that the cast can do to him, since whatever they're capable of, he can do better and then some.
  • Dabi is this in a nutshell. His Quirk Special 1 is a large blue fireball with slight tracking, which, on a subsequent press of the button, boosts its speed and tracking into making it a deadly homing projectile. This Second Special is a multi-hit flamethrower, and the 3rd is a flame trap that is dropped right in front of where he's standing and causes a huge amount of stun. What does this all mean? That all a halfway-decent Dabi really has to do is stand in one place, drop a trap, pop off fireballs, and mix in the occasional flamethrower to slowly burn your opponent to death as they're forced to both keep constantly moving and run into all of your attacks, all the while barely able to approach you for fear of hitting the trap you laid down early and ending up in a combo. Even worse, he can still do this IN THE AIR, meaning dashing is almost akin to suicide.

I don't really get Scrappydom from any of these. They read more like Game-Breaker entries, especially the latter two.

I agree with LordTwibill on characters intended to have a Magikarp Power.

As for the formerly-Both characters:

• Those who are good in some games and bad in others could go on High-Tier Scrappy or Low-Tier Letdown in the games it applies to. It's harder to deal with the "Both" type who's highly sensitive to metagame changes, but I think they can still be listed under High Tier/Low Tier if they spent a significant amount of time there.
• The outclassed ones could go on Low-Tier Letdown. So could the highly situational ones who suck outside of their niche and don't have a niche worth picking them for (or who players begrudgingly use when Character Select Forcing is in effect, and refuse to touch otherwise).
• If there are enough of the situational type that leads to lopsided matchups, perhaps they could go on something like Lopsided Matchup Scrappy? A character like that can be hated for several reasons: creating an overemphasis on matchups over the players' skill, frustrating fans of characters they hard counter, or players shying away from them because of the dreaded characters who hard counter them.
• See if any of them fit under Scrappy Mechanic (e.g. "Alice's signature Random Effect Spell is mostly hated, as it likes to turn the game into a total Luck-Based Mission.")

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on Dec 5th 2022 at 2:07:33 PM

Could I have a link to the discussion on splitting the trope? This seems more complicated than what we used to have. Edit: never mind, it's just the beginning of this thread.

Edited by Shad0wSmoke on Dec 5th 2022 at 1:04:57 AM

Yes, all of the discussion took place in this thread. However, discussion has already concluded, so the current focus is enacting the changes that were decided on.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 5th 2022 at 3:22:45 AM

Would it be warranted to mention something in the descriptions reiterating that the tropes are not about characters who are just good or bad? Entries that mainly read as "this character is good/bad" without really mentioning the hate were a major issue Tier Induced Scrappy had.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Jan 21st 2023 at 2:58:22 PM

I don't have a problem with updating the descriptions if it's still necessary.

I'm thinking of something along the lines of the following:

Note: Not every high/low tier character qualifies for this trope, especially if they're not quite top/bottom tier. This trope applies specifically to characters who are notoriously good/bad and have accrued significant backlash for being that good/bad.

Sounds good.

Checking in. 846 to go.

I think it should also include characters who are frequently ridiculed for being bad, even if they're not hated per se. (Tends to happen when you can just ignore these bad options and use something else.)